Anyone have a link to a movie or clip done with the glidecam v-8. I know that there is a demo of v-16 on glidecams website but wanted to see if there were any difference the way the v-8 worked. SO if anyone have any links please share.

It actually works the same as the V-16, the only difference being that its slightly smaller and designed for lighter cameras. I currently don't know of any demo clips on line however.

Pray

Here's a little short I shot when I got the v-8 last year...this is pretty much right out of the box...no training or practice on my part, but I think it shows that the unit definitely delivers.

http://homepage.mac.com/barrygoyette/iMovieTheater4.html

Barry

Thanks much Barry that was a nice clip.

<<<-- Originally posted by barrygoyette : Pray

no training or practice on my part, but I think it shows that the unit definitely delivers.
-->>>

Definatley, infact I really, really want one. I like experimenting with motion. I want to do something on skis this winter actually, hehe. I'm sure the v-8 would help deliver some killer 1st-person shots.
I also want something stable to use on my car, I noticed GlideCam offers a car mount too. Sweet stuff.

Andrew:

Because of the shifting weight and body angle involved in sports like skiing, skating/rollerblading and the like, it's a lot safer to stick with a handheld stabilizer (one that doesn't attach to your body with a vest and arm). In the Glidecam line this would be the 4000, or various other manufacturers. The reason being that the position of the rig in a body mounted system is very dependent on the angle of your torso, and any unexpected leaning that may occur will cause the rig to fly out and possible cause you to lose your balance. And of course, falling down with all that gear strapped to your body is not pretty (I've done it with running shots and lived to tell the tale, but I use spotters and they have helped break the fall...the insurance took care of what was left of the equipment!).

I've done a few shots with a handheld stabiliser on my skateboard. it worked fine; there was too much pavenment in shot and the camera swayed so much it looked like i was drunk, but that as because i hadn't set up the weight properly.

if trying any moving shots, have a few rehearsals and watch the results back, because u really can't concentrate on/correct framing when you're bouncing around and concentrating on staying upright

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Goyette : Pray

Here's a little short I shot when I got the v-8 last year...this is pretty much right out of the box...no training or practice on my part, but I think it shows that the unit definitely delivers.

http://homepage.mac.com/barrygoyette/iMovieTheater4.html

Barry -->>>

I just watched it. Very nice! Two thumbs up!

I'm thinking of moving from a 2000 Pro to a V-8 but was looking for some advice hopefully from Charles or Casey before I part with any cash. The main problem I have with the 2000 is that I can go for about 5 minutes before it just becomes too heavy, I presume the V8 with vest and arm will allow me to spread the weight much more resulting in longer usage times? Also although the 2000 gives me pretty smooth shots there's still a little motion up and down when running or walking quickly, again would the arm of the V8 completely isolate body movement from the camera? Some of the largest rigs have a 2 section spring arm but the V series only has one spring section to the arm, what is the reason for this? Does the 2 spring section arm provide a smoother motion or is it just for heavier rigs. I know this last question is all a bit subjective but will I see a big difference in the quality of shots by using a V8 over the 2000.

Think thats all for now.

Thanks.

John.

Hi John,

I've been using the V-8 for several years and am very satisfied with it's overall performance. Hopefully Charles and Casey will post a few comments in a few days. I know Charles is busy with his film challenge this weekend and still shooting Scrubs.

I believe the second spring is for larger, heavier cameras. I find the V-8 is perfect for the XL1 and accessories. If you are using a smaller , lighter camera the V-8 may be too much. My personal experience is that the adjustments are very touchy. Balance is critical, both front and back and side to side. It took me probably a week to get the balance adjusted properly. Then it was practice, practice, practice.

Isolation from body movement is never totally achieved with the V-8. It is still too small of a unit to achieve total isolation. You would need to move up to a V-16 or a Steadicam to achieve total isolation. I find the V-8 allows me greater comfort and less strain in operation. I can shoot longer shots and I'm less fatigued at the end of the day.

Until I had shoulder problems, I made a point of using it for at least an hour or two every week. That way it felt like second nature when I would use it for a job.

Thanks Jeff,

I'll be using it with a VX2000 with beachbox etc, so should be OK. Have you used any hand held stabalisers? Just wondering if you had any comparsions between handheld and the V8. When you say you're never totaly isolated, what movement is transmitted to the camera?.

John.

I had borrowed a couple of the smaller (hand held) models but don't remember specifically which models. I know one was a Steadicam, the other a Glidecam. The Glidecam was probably the 4000 and the Steadicam was probably the JR (?) or another discontinued model. The XL1 was too heavy for me with those rigs. I'm 6 ft. and 155 lbs., not a big guy but I've a very strong upper body. After a couple of minutes, maybe less, my arm would start to shake and that was it. The vest redistributes the weight to my hips and makes all the difference.

I've never been able to totally control the up and down motion. It doesn't seem unbalanced, it just takes very small adjustments to keep it level. Combine the need for small adjustments with an up and down motion (climbing stairs) and I don't feel I have adequate control (small adjustments translate to large motion). But for pans and lateral movement the control is excellent.

Thanks for that Jeff, hopefully charles and Casey can also add their wisdom, I just want to make sure I'll get a good return for my £2k.

John.

Still thinking of questions, so here another couple, whats the real difference between the V8 and the V16. From the pictures you can obviously see the sleds are quite different, but how much different are they?, do they use the same gimbal? is the V16's much better. I've watched the V16 demos on the web site and they look really good, is this kind of footage possible with the V8(Obviously practice will be required). Is there any real differences with the arm and vest, are they just stronger to support the extra weight?

I'll probably have more questions on this tomorrow :) so thanks for any info

Thanks.

John.

On the V16 it says the gimbal can be moved to allow for varying camera heights, does this mean that the V8 is set at one height? I also read on the website that the spring in the arm can have the spring force adjusted, why is this necessary and what will it do?

Sorry for all these questions :)

John.

John, if my conversion math is correct, you are considering spending $3200.00 for something you have never even demoed. Remember, this is the same company that makes the V2000, which IMHO, is a piece of crap. Is there no way you can rent one of these rigs and see if this is where you want to spend your hard earned money? When you get to this amount, you are not far from an actual Steadicam Mini, and that should enter into your discussions. What is your intent for this device? Are you interested in becoming expert at operating a stabilized camera? Or, do you just want it for the occasional shot? If you really want to become a highly skilled operator, then maybe it is worth the extra money for the industry standard; the Steadicam. You can then rent yourself and your gear out to others who want the shots, but don't want to make the investment. It would be a lot more impressive to say, "I am a Steadicam operator," versus anything else. And eventually, you may move up to the full-sized rigs.

But if you just want to do the occasional shot, this is a pretty expensive toy. It would be a shame to spend that kind of money for a device that sits in your closet most of the time. And that is exactly what happens to a lot of these units if you read enough of these posts.

If there is any way you can demo one of these units, please do so first. Then be certain that you have a good return policy in place, and pay with a credit card. Proceed with caution.

Hi Wayne,

Video is actually a sideline for me, I've got my normal day job that pays for my expensive toys :-) I have been happy with the 2000pro it just becomes too heavy for me after a while and was looking for a fairly reasonably priced vest/arm support stabaliser. I can get the Glidecam V8 for just over 2000 UKpounds but the steadicam is just over 5, so there is too much of a price difference for me to justify it.

I would use the 2000 alot more if it wasn't so heavy so I imagine I'd use the V8 alot if it does what I want. I don't want to become a highend operator or anything like that I just enjoy doing any type of video project I can get my hands on, If I can make money out of it then great, if not then I just enjoy it, I'm not planning on making this my sole career but when I do video projects I like to do them well, hence the reason for wanting a good stabaliser.

There's only one Glidecam distributor in the UK so it's pretty difficult to demo this stuff.

John.

Hi John, I'm finally able to look over this post.

Casey Visco is the man to talk about the specific differences between the Glidecams in detail. I have played with them but not recently or extensively enough to speak with enough authority.

A vest and arm system will make a massive difference in your shooting stamina as you guessed. A dual section arm is designed for more weight, but also will give you a bigger boom range (close to three feet of vertical travel for some systems). This is often overlooked when folks think of these systems purely for smoothing out their footsteps; it's a very valuable thing to be able to do small booms on the arm, like a miniature crane. In fact, by starting on one knee and eventually stepping up onto an apple box or something similar, booming the arm all the while, you can achieve a solid five feet of vertical travel, as much as a small jib arm. That's a great effect! With a single section arm, you are much more limited in this regard.

Adjusting the spring force in the arm allows you to optomize it for different weight cameras. The arms in general should be set so that they hang at or slightly below horizontal, which gives you the maximum boom range with minimum effort.

The bouncing effect you have experienced is unfortunately quite common with this class of stabilizer. It has to do with both the lightweight masses involved with a DV camera and the simplified design of the arms supplied. To make an arm that truly "tracks" the movement of the operator without any kind of springy effect is not an easy task, and such arms command a premium (here's the arm I use. (http://www.pro-gpi.com/arm.htm)--it can be yours for just $20,000...! ugh!)

Finally, Wayne makes some good points, but I should point out that while the name "Steadicam" is a trademark held by Tiffen and specific to their rigs, it has become a fairly generic term like "Kleenex" and "Xerox" and we all pretty much use it to describe our rigs, even though many operators are not using Tiffen products. The company that I linked above makes the rig that is used on probably 85% of movies & TV series at the current time, and it has no affiliations to Tiffen. So you can call yourself a Steadicam operator if you have a Glidecam, and it is unlikely that mysterious men in dark suits and sunglasses will show up at your door!

Is $20,000 a competitive price for a steadicam arm? How much could the engineering expense really have been? Your average production automobile (< $20 k) is a ~$2 billion engineering investment. I suppose many more cars are sold than steadicams, but I can't imagine $20,000 being justified... this must be a high profit business...

Hi Charles,

Thanks for your words of wisdom :) The actual up and down motion I was meaning was due to the hand held stabaliser and I was hoping that this would be reduced by using the arm/vest type, I've looked at the video in one of the posts above made with the V8 and I didn't really notice the same up down that I see with the 2000 pro. I guess I'm just looking for reasurrance that the investment will be worthwhile and my shots will be improved. With the handheld you can still tell that I'm walking with it rather than floating with it, if you know what I mean :-) and I was just hoping that this wouldn't be so apparent with the V8.

John.

Just had a look at the prices for your setup charles, it made my eyes water :-) Jeez that's some serious money, anyway I actually had another question, I was wondering when the camera is boomed up and down is it still stablised properly, what I mean by that is when you using the stabaliser at it's normal resting height I presume the spring arm absorbs the movement because of the tension of the spring, if you move the arm up how does this work???? surely there's not the same tension in the spring to provide the support. (sorry If I'm being stupid here)

Thanks.

John.

John:

No sir, no stupid questions when it comes to this stuff.

In theory, a Steadicam (used generically) arm should provide a near-constant lifting force at any point throughout its boom range. With the lower-end rigs, you will see the best performance at the center of their range which will diminish the further you get to the limits, but they will still stabilize as long as they do not lock up. What I mean by this is if you were to boom way up and run with the system, the arm would be banging against its stops on each step. With some practice this never happens, one intuitively keeps the arm at a useable range.

The up-and-down movement I was referring to is certainly apparent in the lower-end rigs, and by this I mean even in the Steadicam SK and Provid models which cost a lot more than the ones you were referring to originally. The real test is to walk alongside a horizontal plane such as a bookshelf, and watch to see if the shelf appears to shift up and down in the frame (of course it is the camera doing the shifting). The closer you are to a foreground object, the more pronounced this parallax shift will be. For general photography where one is at least a few feet from the subject, this will not be as noticeable. It is possible for a skilled operator to reduce or eliminate this effect by dampening the springiness in the arm.

Charles, are there any cheap Steadicam clones with the vest and arm that are good to hold 10-15lbs of camera or so?

Charles,

Thanks for that I get it now :-)

I think the V8 will definately be an improvement over what I have now, it's reasonably priced and it will be good experience for me to learn how to use it, so hopefully Casey can comment on some of the specific questions I had on the glidecam, then it's time to order it :-)

Thanks to everyone for all the assistance.

John.

<<<-- Originally posted by Robert Knecht Schmidt : Is $20,000 a competitive price for a steadicam arm? How much could the engineering expense really have been? Your average production automobile (< $20 k) is a ~$2 billion engineering investment. I suppose many more cars are sold than steadicams, but I can't imagine $20,000 being justified... this must be a high profit business... -->>>

It's a sticky question, Robert. One the one hand, you hit thenail on the head when you pointed out how many more cars are sold than Steadicams. In terms of return for R&D dollars, it's a whole different animal, plus these are much smaller companies we are talking about. In addition, the rigs are essentially handmade, automated CNC machines notwithstanding....they are made one part at a time, and there are a lot of precision parts.

One the other hand, this is the film industry and the prices reflect what the market will bear. There have been some recent, cheaper alternatives introduced, and some are arguably close to the PRO in terms of manufacturing quality and design, but they are coming into the game late and most of the rigs at this price point have already been sold to their users (and there' s a lot of used rigs floating around for the newbies).

Equipment manufacture for this niche is tough. You only sell a few units and the owners have extremely high expectations of their performance.

Want to see the hottest support vest on the market today? Check this out (http://www.xsample.ca/danielsauvedesigns/index.cfm). Back-mounted, custom fitted and highly acclaimed--and yours for only $9000...!

I don't know anything about these arms. But just following along on Charles' remarks, we can do some basic elementary school arithmetic to arrive at ballpark costs.

Let's say that each arm requires a total of 200 man-hours to produce (this seems a reasonable figure against the hand-crafting description Charles provided). And let's assume that the average fully-burdoned (base pay + benefits) labor rate for the company is a modest $40/hr.

200 manhrs x $40 = $8,000 labor

Now let's assume that each arm contains $1,000 of raw materials and vendor-supplied parts.

$8,000 labor + $1,000 materials + parts = $9,000 total manufacturing cost

Now let's assume that the manufacturer has $1,000,000 of capital investment (mainly machinery and vehicles) on a 5 yr. depreciation schedule. And let's also say thay he can produce 50 such arms per year (roughly 1/week).

$1,000,000 / 5 yrs = $200,000 depreciation/yr

$200,000 depreciation / 50 arms = $4,000 depreciation/arm

$4,000 depreciation + $9,000 manufacturing cost = $13,000 total cost per arm

So the gross profit margin for each $20,000 arm would be $7,000 or 35%. This is not an exhorbitant profit margin, particularly considering that other indirect costs will eat into it.

Overhead; leases, insurance, taxes, (property not income) advertising, phones, computer, machinery etc,etc,-if you've never owned a 4 walled business you have no idea how big the monthly overhead can be. It will eat you're lunch. That's why over 80%of all new businesses fail in the 1st 3-5 years. It's not that they don't know how to run their business, or that they don't have a good product or service, it's the overhead that get's 'em. The money goes out a lot faster than it comes in and they end up like so many other places! Gone in 60 seconds

Ken:

Can't vouch for the accuracy of your numbers, particular the man-hours, but that's along the right idea. And all the while they are developing new equipment in order to stay current. It should be noted that Cinema Products, the company that originally developed the Steadicam, went bankrupt last year after a long shaky period (Tiffen now posesses the manufacturing license). You would think that owning the Steadicam name would be a gold-mine, but there it is...and the rumor is that Tiffen is not doing so great with it either. GPI (the company that makes the PRO rig) is hanging in there, but there are quite a few competitors, most recently Sachtler who have developed a fine looking piece of gear in the Artemis. (http://www.sachtler.com/content.asp?lid=1&mdid=3&subdid1=9&d2cid=122&pid=601&psid=3)

I suspect that the Steadicam product line is quite a conundrum. The market's too small to justify the capital investments required to scale-up/further automate production and lower prices. Meanwhile the prices are too high to expand the market. Personally, I'd consider expanding the potentially more profitable prosumer line to help finance incremental developments to the professional line. But what do I know?

Charles,

If possible could you pop onto your steadicam message boards or use your connections to help me find a used rig, complete, i really don't mind if it is 10 years old as long as it works and say for a price bracket beats out what i could buy one at the same price new for.

zac

I'd be happy to: what price level are you looking for, which rig etc. I know we talked about this a while back but I forgot. Should I include your email address?

Hey Charles (my fathers name everytime i write it i think of him)

it would be fine to include my address. Since i know very little about rigs i'll let you tell me what is good or not. I am just under 6 foot, i weigh around 80kg's so i wouldnt need a special sized anything.

Price range, well obviously cheaper the better, i think 2k or so, because i know i can buy a new one for 2k, but you know maybe i can get one which is comparable to a 5-6k one used.

Or if you found one that more along the lines of a v8/v16, i have a sony pd150 (not really heavy), super cheap (like $500-1000) i would snap it up. (even if it is aged and out of date, it is for my little cam, and if need be i can always steady it out with a block of wood or something.)

Of course i totally understand if the people you know don't deal with things in that low of a price range, it is just a personal thing for me.

Thanks for your help.

Zac

Zac@mindfreeproductions.com

Hmmm...the folks on the Steadicam forum are probably not going to be a ton of help for a rig in that price range. I'm just starting to learn about the different manufacturers myself (meeting with the gent behind the "Magiqcam" in a couple of weeks to offer some pointers).

If I hear of anything, Zac, I'll let you know.

Charles,

Thanks for looking as it is, I may be directing a funded film soon, not too sure yet, if i get a budget (heh heh) from an investor i'll be sure to find out when you have a few weeks free and fly you down here as DOP/CO.

Man i love this forum.

Zac

Zac,

Australia? I'd be down there in a heartbeat, mate. Got family in Sydney, was last there in the 80's but would love to go back.

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert : Hmmm...the folks on the Steadicam forum are probably not going to be a ton of help for a rig in that price range. I'm just starting to learn about the different manufacturers myself (meeting with the gent behind the "Magiqcam" in a couple of weeks to offer some pointers).

If I hear of anything, Zac, I'll let you know. -->>>


What of that meeting re: the magiqcam Charles? You must have had a hands-on experience with one, do you have any opinions? How does it fair against a GlideCam V8 (or a V16) for example?

The meeting never happened, scheduling problems & I'm out of town for a few months.

What I saw of the Magiqcam was a work in progress. Some solid value for the money, but in dire need of revamping in a few critical areas. Not as mature a product as the Glidecam, thus I can't recommend it at the current time.

hey Zac, how about something homemade? I have a homeade rig (www.homebuiltstabilizers.com - "cosmin's rig" unde "full rigs"). It's nice, ok. You can see a small clip made with it on the same site, under "videoclips" - "cosmin's system".

I'll ask on homebuiltstabilizers forum. I just decided I want to get rid of it! ;-)