Hi guys! I’m one of the “first time posting, been snooping around for years” people. So I’m going to start by thanking everyone for everything I’ve learned here. It’s incredible that you can learn so much by reading the ramblings of people in the know! :) Better resource than all of my books combined!

Here is my question: I will soon graduate with a BA in Telecommunications: Media Arts. I have always intended to get my demo reel together with a resume, and send them out to all the local production companies and hopefully get some occasional work which may lead to a full time position. However, with my current job (service industry) I have the opportunity to become a manager and begin working my way up.

Ok, HERE is my question(s): Living in Detroit, MI… From your point of view in the industry, is my plan to get occasional work to get my foot in the door for a full time position plausible? Is that how it works? I’ve considered wedding videography, but somehow that doesn’t interest me. Is there such a thing as "full time position?"

Being newly married and the proud owner of a MORTGAGE, the real world is slapping me in the face. I love the art of film and video, so even if I get a “real” job I will continue to do work on the side as well as make my own shorts and, *coming soon* the spectacle that will be my first feature film. But somehow I know I’ll be happier if I can do this on a daily basis. So how’s my game plan?

PS: in case it matters, my future goal is to become the greatest filmmaker of all time.

A. Morris

Sorry guys, this should probably be down in the everything media section. If someone can move it, that would be great.

Until they do move it, here's my two cents.

I, much like you, had the same idea. This was about three years ago. I graduated with a BA in Radio/TV, and was told by my advisor there were indeed jobs out there in the field.

So, first, what do you want to do? You could try to get in at a news station, as an AP (I think that's the title--associate producer). You pull scripts for the newscasts, run the teleprompter, maybe occasionally do something cool. As for camerawork in news, I've always been told that unless you're extremely lucky, the way to do it is to move to a small market and start there, and then after 2-3 years, if you're good, you can go to the big city. Ditto editing.

Now, commercial/film/whatever production companies? These are weird. In my experience, and always keep that in mind 'cause I only know what I've been through, is that there aren't many that have full time positions, in the first place. A lot of places are just the owner, maybe a partner, and they hire everyone else as freelancers (PAs, DPs, whatever) on a job to job basis. There are a few with fulltime staffs, but good luck getting in, 'cause those people may never leave. Why would you?

There are also different levels of production going on, at least in Houston. There are the ultra large productions, by which I mean high budgets, real crews (DPs, grips UPMS, Line Producers, other people's whose job titles I know but have no idea what the hell they actually do), and these can be commercials, as well as films (though we don't get many of these). Then you have your smaller companies that do the same stuff, on a lower-budgeted level, and a guy may DP/direct/produce/run audio, but it's still a decently high-end affair. Then, you have the low end, your miniDV shooters who might make their living at weddings and do the occasional commercial or something. Again, this is my view of things.

So, most, if not all, of my work has come from a) going through the Houston Production guide (a book that categorically lists production companies, DPs, editors, everything you can think of), and cold-calling people, and going "hey, lookin' for any cameramen/PAs (depending on how high end they), or b) answering ads on craiglist.org and mandy.com looking for cameramen.

So, this is all quite a pain in the ass, and has not by any means lead to full time work, as of yet. A few close calls, but I'm still not there. This is probably in part due to my lack of agression, and unwillingness to bullshit people, so maybe you'll have more luck.

Also, my reel, out of college, was nothing to brag about. Now, at least it's halfway decent and occasionally impresses people. I might assume the same about yours, no offense.

So, to summarize, cold call production companies, and browse the net for ads, or know somebody special who can hook you up, or start your own company. Any way you do it, still hard as hell. The one place I know you can get in is as a PA on these larger productions. If you're good, and don't complain, and harass the right people, you'll eventually start getting called often and after awhile, you get to stop being a PA, and start being whatever's the next highest thing on the food chain. So I'm told. I've been stubbornly trying to avoid PAing 'til now (rather undignified work--getting food, herding people around). That's one area where they will call you even if you have no experience. Might take a while though. MUch luck. Beware of local ads seeking PAs, because they might really mean unpaid labor who do way more than a real PA would on a professional set. Real PAs actually can make decent money.

Fork in the road is a great analogy. In most fields, if you get out of college with a degree and do not use it within a year, you may as well have gotten a degree in East Tahitian Religions. SO if you want to make use of your degree you have to at least try. But tactics are easy, strategy is hard. So you better decide if you want to be in your "service" industry which could be Burger King for all I know.

The real clue is to close your eyes and picture yourself at 40 years old. What does your life look like? What do you look like? How many kids, what kind of car, same wife or new younger model, what kind of clothes, what are your hobbies? And when you get a clear picture of what you want your life to look like in 20 years, look at both options in front of you and decide which one will take you there. Maybe the answer is none of teh above, in which case you know what to do...

Assuming you really want to do the media thing you have to at least try, even if you fail. You have to quit screwing around and get your reel and resume together, and then talk to everyone you can within range of your new mortgage. Risk hearing NO, because you are only looking for one YES anyway. If that fails, figure out what cities you would like to live in (remember being 40 yrs old a few minutes ago?) and talk to everyone you can in those places too. Ask everyone you talk to to give you an assessment of the industry, what they think it will look like in ten years, and what they suggest for your route to your goals. Every conversation will bring you closer. The real bottom line to achieving anything is knowing what you are willing to give up to get it. It may be your new mortgage, it may be laziness and procrastination and fear of rejection, or it may be your dream of becoming the greatest filmmaker of all time.

If your new service career does not take you closer to your goal, it takes you further away. Nothing gray about it.

HTH

Reality is what I am in; but in my 'sparest of moments' I pursue filmmaking (DVX100-24p). There is nothing at all wrong with thaking a practical career path (work, family, mortgage obligations). In fact, without that in place how can you try something else.

Be proud of the oppurtunity to do both. Work during the week, and when you spare time is yours for the taking, pursue filmmaking.

Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Ashley and good luck with your tough choices!

Thanks alot guys.

Ok. I feel better now. I think I just felt like I would be wasting my education if I had a day job (not burger king, thank god- no offense BK people!)

So I guess I'll keep my day job and actively find media work on the side. Until, someday, that media work will support me and my lavish lifestyle. :)

Thanks again. So, back to work on my demo reel (youre right, its not spectacular) until I have to go to work later.

Keep in mind, it's hard as hell to do that. If you're trying to make it as a filmmaker, the weekend warrior thing might work out. If you're trying to work for other people, quite difficult, unless your day job has extremely flexible hours, or you can work from home (editing, I suppose) or something. The big productions, from what I understand, mostly go on during the week, and not in the evenings (mostly), so if weekends are your only available time, it'll be tough to do much else besides work on low-budget (and by that I mean usually non-paying, and fairly non-professional) shoots and features, or weddings (and maybe Bar Mitzvahs. I don't know when those are usually held 'cause I never had one 'cause I'm a vewwy vewwy bad Jew).

Ashley, I'm 34 and I'm getting to the point when I'm starting to know people in the screenwrtiing community (I had lunch sitting beside one of the main decision makers for the funding agency in Canada just yesterday). My problem is that I haven't been able to make time to pursue it! Two of my scripts are out being read and because of a combination of day job, being tired, and not being disciplined enough for the time I do have, I haven't been able to put the polish on it or start on the my third. If I don't put the pedal to my output, then people will start to forget who I am and no amount of going to parties or phoning people will matter. This, I suspect, is similar to your dilemma (though I gather you are younger). The whole spectre of being 40 and then looking back at missed opportunities and regrets is an even bigger fear for me because that's only six years away. What I'm saying is you are right to look at that decision now rather than later. Time is fleeing. I have to make my decision too!

hi ash,

i think a lot of us are in the same boat you are, so you're in the right place!

let's talk logic and examples.

for example, let's say you're francis coppola's relative (in any way, shape or form). just quit your day job now and let him hook you up. no problem! just work hard and you'll make it. hey, look at nic cage! if he can do it, YOU CAN! how about francis's very own daughter that came into her own through "lost in translation"? hey, no problemo buddy! =^). nepotism is pretty heavy in the higher ups of film industry and francis isn't even really part of the hollywood "system" (see THX's 2nd DVD docu on zoetrope). just transpose this example on any number of combinations like relatives of someone that knows anybody in the movie studios.

now, i'm going to assume that you aren't relatives to anybody in the film industry. thus, you're shit outta luck. sorry bro'. it's like fight club when tyler's recruiting his project mayhem "space monkeys". nope sorry, 2tall, 2short, 2fat, 2ugly, etc. remember this point because you'll be coming back to it, again&again.

let's step back a bit and hypothesize even more. if you wanna get into the industry, you have to know somebody IN the industry. and if you know somebody, they have to KNOW that you're good in directing, writing, etc. the best way to get their attention is to go out and make somn of your own and show them how "good" you are. so let's say you wrote the next star wars. they luv it, they take the script and it starts to circulate. if you don't push it, the script sits dormant/loses steam. you know those hollywood guys talk. chow. so you get frustrated. then you use miniDV and actually direct your own script. the movie comes out pretty good. now you have your contact's attention. he shows it to the studios, they luv it, baby! now they can't pay you big money but @least they're willing to get some money to make your movie. ok good, you're on the fast track now. now you have to quit your dayjob to "make this movie". alright! you've "arrived"... or have you? take the story behind sky captain of tomorrow. you probably know it. EVEN AFTER directing gwen, jude, jolie, working w/$40mil the movie tanks. you have to be prepared for that kind of failure. i'm predicting the DVD sales will barely recoup the cost. will you ever work again? how will you pay the mortgage/feed the family? didya remember to write another movie while you were directing sky captain? ah who knows.

so what's the lesson learned? don't get into the industry? no. if it's really your passion, i really think you need to put it into perspective in your own life. everyone's life is different. if you really do have a lot of connections and you already have proof/reels that you can show people you're good then you're really on teh fast track. but if you have NOTHING then... it's pretty much a given, don't quit the day job. but remember to preservere... for the rest of your lfie? ah that's the conundrum isn't it. even the great orson wells said in a documentary that if he had known he was going to be such a failure as a filmmaker he would have STOPPED pursuing and wrote more books, painted more, got into politics, etc. who knew where his own genius could have taken him. it's the ultimate irony in life and ultimately those who have talent or don't have the talent both makes it and does not make it in the industry.

on a plus side, i think the feeling of "office space" and working @jobs you hate really fuels your creative mind. it's the fact that you really wanna get the hell out of your situation that you push yourself really hard. you never see that type of endurance with "made artists" anymore. complacency sets in. therefore i think it's very good for you to work @dayjob like bruce wayne... but become batman @night fighting crime. so be a bruce wayne and @night be a batman. you will know how to fly.

it's like qui-gon jinn's tone poem for star wars episode i the phantom menace. "it will be a hard life. one without reward, without remorse, without regret. the path will be placed before you. the choice is yours alone. do what you think you cannot do. it will be a hard life, but you will find out who you are."

Wow. Good to know I'm not the only one mulling this over. I just made a major life change. I recently went partime at my job to pursue filmmaking. I left a very good career which I was good at but ultimately not happy with. It was not a selfish decision. No one to depend on me but me.

My major motivator? Life is to short to wonder what could have been. And this quote a friend of mine passed on "people in this industry (film/music) who succeed aren't like us with good jobs. This is their only job. We dont have to suceed. They have no choice but to suceed"

For what its worth

i hate to be the pessimist (sp?) but whatif you don't?

Ashley, I just want to say one more thing. It is totally based on your comment "in case it matters, my future goal is to become the greatest filmmaker of all time." If this was just joking around or BS, ignore this whole post.

If you read a life story of anyone successful, they never had a dream and got a day job to support i. Many of them pursued their dream and got a second or third or fourth job to feed the kids while they did what they loved. It is a matter of priority. When people ask you what you do, you either say "I make films" or you say "I am a manager in a service business that is not Burger King". And it has a huge impact on your self-image and who you become.

My third rule of life is be careful who you take advice from. No offense to the twenty-somethings in this thread, but how can they tell you what works? They can tell you what they chose, but that is different. They haven't had enough time to fully evaluate the choice. (Boy I am getting old to have even said that!!) Go find some VERY successful people in your town (in any field) and ask their advice. It has nothing to do with the industry or how hard or easy it is. I suspect they will all tell you to go for it with all your soul. If you put your dream on the side burner, it will someday get shoved to the back burner, and pretty soon you realize it never got hot enough to cook. Every decision you make either takes you toward your goal or away from it.

And thats all I have to say about that. :) Good Luck.

Glad to see that Im not the only one debating this question.

When I went to college I majored in Computer Engineering. I was guaranteed a very good paying job out of college. But then I realized that it wouldnt make me has happy as doing what I really loved to do - which was video production. So, I changed my major, knowing that I would be giving up alot of money... for a career in something much less stable. But I was happier with it.

And now, after being offered a chance to flip-flop and go the opposite direction of video production- I consider it?

I do know what I want to do. It's what I got my degree in. I dont need to take a "real job" (which was fairly mediocre) for the money. Ill work part-time, and work my schedule around my media stuff. Besides, I think it's about time my wife supports me! :) (im a guy, dont let the name fool ya)

Ok... this place is almost like therapy. I feel better already. :)

Follow your heart Ashley. You still have your degree and those types of jobs will still be there if you have to fall back on something.

Hi Ashley

I haven't read all the posts on what and how to get into the industry.... but I can just tell you my basic philosophy of life in general.

You only get one crack and it's not very long.... so if you want to do something .. go for it. If you don't you'll only have regrets at 40 or 60 or what ever.

Most people nowadays have two or three career changes in their working life.. in fact my old Economics teacher at school predicted it.. Well he's right I'm on number three and verging on number four.

Some professions are young mans jobs.... after a few years you want out...

You need to keep knocking on those doors... I too did a degree..in French, BUT wanted to be a Press Photographer. I was a stringer for various local papers in London before getting a staff job on a low paid weekly in London. I progressed to dailies and agencies before landing a job at Reuters where I worked for 15 years, saw a bit of the world and covered loads of good events and stories over the globe.

Boils down to how badly you want it...

Now I shoot internet and tourism videos, run a Fishing holiday firm and have fun...

My first job after university was selling TV's .. could have been a Manager too... did the training. BUT well it was NOT what got my pulse racing.

Want it badly enough and Go for it... And you'll succeed.

Good Luck

Gareth
France

(NOTE: I can't spell)

I'm a 20 something, so John, you can ignore this one...joking. John is probably right from the standpoint of happiness, ect, but a twenty something might be able to give you some good 'technical' advice on how to get into film if you do decide to do it since its fresh info...so here's my experience minus life philosophy:

I graduated from college two long years ago with a degree in English. I made short films all through college, but never took a film class because I had an athletic scholarship and the film classes were always in the afternoon during practice. I knew no one in film nor did I know anyone who knew anyone in film. But before I graduated I was pretty much dead set on working in film. In my last year of school, a writer came to speak at our college and she had a screenplay in development at a legit NYC company. She also wrote, in my opinion, one of the best literary novels of the '90's. So I got there early and just harrased her for information for about an hour and did the same afterwards. I found her email online and emailed her at least once a month with writing and career questions. I have no doubt that I was annoying her at times, but she continued to offer advice so I continued to ask (and I have found thus far that people are much more willing to help you out than you think...never when you ask the first time though).

So after graduating, I continued working the midnight shift at a gasstation (my college job which I wish I could still do because it forced me to write for 7 hours a night) and I started doing landscaping work on the side to save up enough to make a short on 16mm...which I now wish I had done digital because in a learning project there's absolutely no difference shooting film or digital.

So to do the short on film I needed a crew who knew what the hell they were doing. The nearest production community for me was two hours away. So I got out the yellowpages and started calling people...a lot of hangups and "I don't have time for this shit". The cold calls didn't work for me, so I found out where some of the DPs and ADs lived and started showing up at their houses...i wish I had a camera with me to capture the looks on their faces when they opened the door and I started asking about film. But this actually had an extremely high success rate. So I got a crew of six that all had 10 plus years experience doing features and the like. The short went well, so the crew guys started introducing me to people who could help during post...began meeting people, ect.

After the short, the writer's, who is in a paragraph above, script went into production and she called the production company and got me a production assistant job in new york out of nowhere. So I left for New York three days later with no place to stay...I made calls and found friends of friends to stay with and stayed with people I met at work, ect for two months in NYC. However, a PA at a studio production company is different than a set PA, so all I did was read three or four screenplays a day and write commentary on them - every single one was f'ing godawful...like, bad. But I was on the computers and could see all the presentations, figures, ect that they used to raise money from investors and they also had a video distributer right next store where I snuck off to whenever I could. So I didn't learn anything about production, but it helped when I came back and said I PA'd in new york. So that got me my first set PA job which was a bit of an experience.

When I first showed up on my first job someone handed me an extension cord and said run a "stinger to that kino." I stood still for about five minutes before another PA jumped in and saved me. "Stingers are Extension Cords" by the way. So I sort of faked my way out of danger and slowly started figuring it out. But it took about 5 or 6 months before I could only do set work and get by. During that time I started a company and shot weddings, which is far below gasstation attendant on jobs I'll ever do again. So i've done the video stuff and worked on commercial and film sets, and I've got to say that if you want to get into it, learn on film sets. Small video stuff is good for some things, but find a city with a production community and go there.

So my general advice if you're my age or out of college and want to get into film is to make working in film a do or die priority. I don't know any of the guys that have worked for 10 plus years who weren't obsessed with it. I haven't met anyone who has stayed that "was going to try film for a couple years and see if it works." Maybe they're out there but I haven't seen them. Also, keep in mind that I'm a rookie and not a pro at this, so take my opinions as such.

Supplimental Cautionary Tale: One of the Assistant Camera guys told me a story about a guy he used to work with who had fought for four years to get into a camera department. He got there and worked for over a year as a second AC, but messed up loading a mag once, and was never hired again. There don't seem to be any garentees.

Sorry John, I have to add some philosophy here...

Kierkagard wrote something about when he went to church, he saw that everyone wanted to be saved and go to heaven without any chance of going to hell. They didn't want any risk involved. And he noted how ludicris it is for people to expect the prospect of going to heaven without even the possibility of being damned in hell....something like that. That's sort of how I see film. If you want it, you gotta be willing to lose alot to get there.

As far as keeping a day job and doing film on the side...I guess that decision depends on goals. If one wants to know as much as one can about film, don't do it. If you just want an outlet for some creative energy, then maybe that'll work for you. That's my thoughts on getting into film.

Rick

Side Note I forgot to Add.

If you're a PA and they send you to get Diet Coke, get diet coke and not diet pepsi. Some asshole producer actually started yelling about it on one of my first couple jobs...however, I will punch him in the face at some point during my life.

Rick, great story. Keep good notes. When you are 40 they will want those notes for the Biography Channel. Or Directors. :)

I don't post here much, but this topic caught my attention. I'm not quite at that point in my life, where I have to decide which path I want to go down. I'm still in college, and I am shooting a feature over the summer. I have a job, but I'm not in a position where I can't take a month off for shooting.

Anyway, it seems that people have already been a great help to you. I just figured I'd throw in some of my thoughts.

In my experience, it doesn't seem like a reel is going to get you a job. What you really need to do is go down to a studio, and talk to people. That seems to be the number way to get into the industry. I repeatedly read interviews with directors, actors, producers, etc. A recurring theme seems to be that--they prefer talking to someone rather than seeing their work. They want people who have vision, enthusiasm, and a will to succeed. Work, demos, and reels always seem to take a back seat to personality. Connections seems to be what it is all about in this field.

Interesting thread.
Ashley- I am that reality.
I'm 43 now, been working in the field for a little over 20 years. Graduated (whew) from a small university in Minnesota, moved to Minneapolis and dove in head first. Thank god I wasn't good at much anything else, or I would have quit many times over.
While you are young and unattached with no family or kids- that is the time to take chances and shoot for the sky. What's the worst that can happen?

I spent the majority of my 20's as a broke freelancer, but I learned a lot in the process. I'm going to describe both sides-good and bad.

I now work for a fortune 500 corporation in Atlanta as a videographer/audio engineer.
I do have "moments." Shooting off of a large boat in Hawaii, following our tour group in Italy, or the infrequent nugget of joy that comes from creative lighting and shooting in the field-without being hammered by a deadline. The day-to-day routine can be a creativity-killer. Coupled with executives covering their you-know-whats. No chances taken here. Most of the real creative studio shoots are given to outside freelance producers. If anything goes wrong you can always blame them. I have a family, so its hard to just quit and take my chances and see if I find another job that might be better.

I DO have gear at home though. I write and record my own music, have FCP on a Mac, and can use gear at work without any problems. I also own and fly a small experimental plane and study karate to blow off steam. My wife and I are really busy, but we live an okay-life.

It's never what you expect it to be, but it is what you make of it.
Like it's been said: life is what happens while you are making other plans. So get out there and live. All the hard times you'll have getting there will make great stories for the kids and the young interns later on. Jeese I sound old. (coughing and cackling like an old, grey haired retiree).

Hope there's a nugget of wisdom in there somewhere.

Jeff Patnaude :>)