Can someone throw some light on the price of the Z1?

Japan says 600000Y ~~ $6000

http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200411/11-1110/

US1 says $6000

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=141&id=78439


US2 says $4900

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5327



if $6000 I shall be cancelling my weekend break to the apple come Feb

B&H Photo in NYC lists them as "in stock" for $3,499 (NTSC) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=351515&is=REG). This appears to be a recent price drop - you now need to click on the "give me a price" link and enter your name.

The PAL model lists for $3,999.95 on their site http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=356387&is=REG

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz1


Wake up Boyd Z1 not FX1 :)

BTW I was planning to head for B&H, but $6k is a no no

We're all a little tired today from the tryptophan, Jay -- isn't that the best part of a Thanksgiving Day turkey?

At the Sony press conference I attended earlier this month, Sony said $4900 for the Z1U. That's official, and much lower than was earlier rumored. So you'll have to wait for all the other online info to catch up and get updated. Corporations tend to move slowly.

Oops.... sorry... actually too many hours straight of video editing for the past 4 days!

Then again, I keep forgetting that some of you guys are bold enough to order products that aren't even shipping.... ;-)

Speaking of PAL, has anyone seen a better price for a PAL FX1 than the one listed on B&H?

I'm looking to buy the FX1 finally! About darn time!

heath

B&H already lists the price of the Z1U in $4,999. And they say it will be available in February. So, I guess that's the price will see everywhere, at least for the first 2-3 months.

-EDWIN

John,
The Z1 should be in the region of 3500 GBP...

Robin

Sony Europe is stating Euro 5500 ~ $6k for the Z1


http://www.sony-europe.com/PageView.do?site=odw_en_EU&page=PressReleaseDetail&section=en_EU_Press&pressrelease=1095156844875

This is now 3/1 against the price of $4900


$2300 extra premium is too much and nearly the price of a second FX1

Hi Robin

I see you've done the unbelievable and sacked Canon for the FX1, give us some feedback on it.

Yes the £3500 is consistent with the $6k figure, shame really because at $4900 I could have had a weekend city break in the apple and shot some Fincher style cityscapes for the price differential

Hi John,

Sadly, I think the reality of living in the UK is that we are expected to pay well over the equivalent $$ value of just about anything...

eg, FX1 = $3,499 in US & £2,495 in UK
= $/£ 1.4

so if Z1 = £3,500 then US should be $4,900

Thats just the way things work... :0(

Whats worse is if the $6k price is accurate, we can expect to pay closer to £4,300 for the Z1 - Ouch!!

<<<-- Originally posted by John Jay

I see you've done the unbelievable and sacked Canon for the FX1, give us some feedback on it. -->>>

Hi John,

It does sound a bit unbelievable, doesn't it!
The truth is, I had the XL2 and the FX1 out the other week. Not the same day - it just couldn't be arranged that way...)
I shot some footage at the same location with both cameras, and I had to admit to myself that the FX1 HDV material downconverted in camera to DV (Firewire into a Canon) looked better that the straight Canon DV. Note that I was shooting in 16:9, since that is the only format I really need since I work in the broadcast sector.
My dilemma - and it's a big one - is that neither Canon or Sony have delivered a camera that's going to suit me entirely.
The XL2 is great because of the choice of being able to change the lens.
Plus the fact that its viewfinder is in the "proper" position - it sits into one's face better than the rear handycam type. It's a lot easier to pan and tilt on a tripod with it as well.
But it ain't HDV - and that is going to go against it a lot quicker than people realise ( I'm talking in terms of broadcast use here mind - there'll be a host of aspiring indie "film makers" who'll get very good service from it.)

The Sony delivers the goods as far as high resolution pictures go.
The pro version will be "one camera fits all" inasmuch as it is PAL / NTSC switchable and HDV/DVCam/DV format as well.
Its also got the advantage that it comes under the Sony Broadcast heading - at least, here in the UK - with a whole service back-up army. Something I doubt that Canon can provide.
You may see the lack of interchangeable lenses as a disadvantage - indeed, I don't think that even its fixed lens at the tight end of the zoom is tight enough for lots of applications. The wide end is OK, but I think that I would be looking for a tele adaptor pretty quickly should I buy one.
However, we talking as if these were the only two cameras to be considered! Wait until Spring/Summer next year and see what JVC has to offer... HiDef, interchangeable lenses, no tape - but at what price I wonder.

Robin

Yeah prices are all over the place for the Z1.

Originally, I was told it was coming in at $10,000. 00 CDN
Then it changed to $12,000.00

I bought the FX1 but I'd like to get my hands on the Z1 also.

But at this point, I honestly think we should wait to find out what the ACTUAL sale price will be. 'Cause as far as I'm concerned, its all rumors so far...


-alex

Last week I met with our Sony rep and amongst other things I was told that they would have the Z1 by the end of January to begin shipping out to us (the retailers). From the price I was given...I'm assuming $4900-$5K would be a reasonable street price, given that we're a small company and we're not on the best pricing tier...

I think the state of the US dollar will play a big roll in the final price for the cam in the United States . My Canadian dollar has dramaticaly increased against the US buck lately not because our dollar is so strong, but because the US dollar is falling huge in global standings. It could hit $6000 msp or more if the trend continues.

My understanding is that goods manufactured in Europe and imported into the US will increase in price. However, I don't think the same thing is happening with the dollar in Japan so the camera we're all interested in should remain stable in price.

If B&H or any reseller changes their price from what it is now - isn't that "bait and switch"? It is afterall a price displayed for an item they are not carrying yet, so by posting the price they are literally posting "bait". We can't get it now, so we're fishing for their item.

Murph

Chris, this might seem like a reeeeeeally dumb question. But how come you have a Z1 listed as part of your equipment when it isn't even out yet?

Best Buy has the camera for $3329
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1096380765286&skuId=6905771&productCategoryId=cat15195&type=product

Umm yes, but it's not out yet. The FX1 is, but the Z1 is not.

Simon,
Creative Video are taking orders for the Z1 and are asking £4106.63 inc VAT.

Robin

Simon, I have budgeted money to purchase the Z1 as soon as its available. Also, I always forget to update my profiles everywhere so I decided to do it when I thought of it. No big thing as far as I can see, but if it bothers you I can remove it?

Murph

No, I was just wondering Chris because you had a website advertising HD production. What camera are you using for HD at the moment?

Robin, Creative are taking pre-orders. So are Mitcorp. They had sold 10 when I was there a few weeks back. But it's still not available yet in physical form to take home.

I'm gonna buy an FX1 because the final video quality is the same as the Z1. I guess if there were even more cine gamma controls (like on the DVX100A), that would be reason to buy one.

As my buddy and DV Info contributor Jon Fordham once told me, he had to buy a DV camera. The price difference between the VX2000 and PD-150 was, I think, $1000. Ultimately, the picture was too similar, so he saved the money and bought the VX2000.

heath

b&h photoandvideo have the z1 listed for pre-order at $4900.
sony style has it listed at $5900.
it may be a typo.

correction: thats at sony bussiness solutions
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/SubCategory?m=0&p=2&sp=141&sm=0&s=&cpos=

Simon, I'm renting and/or borrowing cameras until I get the Z1. (I put that on my profile here, but obviously I don't have it yet.) Also, I am in pre-production on a project....don't need a camera right now for it.

Sony's site does list it at $5946.

The camera's not out yet. They do have the right to change the price any time they feel like it, for any reason.

Keep in mind that the DVX was originally announced at $3495, but Panasonic raised the MSRP to $3795 before the first one was ever produced. It's entirely possible that Sony announced $4900, and we all said "wow, that's cheaper than I thought it'd be", and so they went back and revised the number.

I believe it's Douglas Spotted Eagle who says that Sony has insisted that no dealers take pre-orders. Perhaps pricing revisions are one reason why?

In any case, only Sony can answer this question. And they certainly could have raised the price from the initially-annouced $4900. I hope they haven't, but it's possible.

Well, I've changed my Z1U Comparison Chart (http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php) to reflect the MSRP of $5,946. At the Sony press conference, they had told us $4900 and I was lead to believe this was the MSRP. Now I'm hearing that the $4900 figure is the MAP (minimum advertised price).

For those who are not aware, in very general terms the MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price) is the HIGHEST price that an authorized dealer can sell the camera for, whereas MAP (minimum advertised price) is the LOWEST price at which an authorized dealer can advertise the camera (enforceable for about a year). Usually your better dealers will sell at some point in between, often towards MAP but not always (these days if an authorized dealer can make $100 or $200 off of a camcorder sale, they're doing well -- I'm glad I'm not in sales).

Take a lesson from the Canon XL1 and XL2. The MSRP of the original XL1 and XL1S was $4699. Did it ever sell for that much? No, hardly ever. It usually sold at MAP, which was eventually down around $3600. Now the XL2, when it was first started shipping a few months ago was selling right at its MSRP at $4999. I don't know what its MAP is. The MAP figure is seldom made public. Maybe the Z1U's MAP at $4900 wasn't supposed to get out, but they announced it to a bunch of journalists so it sure is public info now.

It is my estimation that like the XL2, authorized Sony dealers will initially sell the Z1U for its its MSRP as long as the demand is high and the supply is low when it actually starts shipping. The biggest problem Sony will have with this camera is meeting the demand for it. People will be happy to pay MSRP to get the Z1U. That's my take on it anyway.

Chris I agree with nearly everything you say...except these two points:

You can sell an item for any price you want...however, you cannot advertise a price lower than MAP...that's why a lot of websites make a shopper send an email asking for a "quote" on a particular item...this usually doesn't happen with cameras (as the mark up is so small...) but it certainly happens with other video, audio, and computer equipment. Also, you can sell something for higher than MSRP (as it's the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price), but unless you have a real sucker on the line, it's basically pointless to do so because someone will surely undercut your pricing.

Right you are, Kevin -- I was just trying to make a generalization there!

Well, now that sony has let the cat out of the bag, guess I will just continue to keep my money in the bank until I can find a Z1 for 4900. No way does it seem worth the extra grand.
Is it work the 2 plus k from the consumer model?

Dave

Or the JVC comes out and is even better. That's always the case, and will be, just like the XL-1, PD-150, XL-1s, VX2100, DVX100A, XL-2, FX1, etc.

heath

I'm also re-thinking my purchase plans. I can't see spending that much money on something that doesn't even have uncompressed audio. I know it's a non-issue, but audio is more important than video...always. It just doesn't add up for the $$ - I was looking at $4900 as my limit.

If Pana or anyone comes out with some type of announcement in the next 60 days I'll definately be looking at what they say.

Murph

<< I can't see spending that much money on something that doesn't even have uncompressed audio. >>

Wow, that knocks you out of the HDV format entirely, Murph -- because compressed audio is part of the spec. I would not hold my breath waiting for any other manufacturers... even if they did announce something, it would months before they actually ship.

Why not try HDV's 384kbps audio before you write it off completely?

this "new" price of a grand more than originally announced for weeks/months is crazy - even Charlie White's most recent reviews/articles based on New York Z1U event are still quoting $4,900 US...

I was a 100% Z1U buyer for this price but now if it's "higher" and it's going be hard to get a deal... all the old debates about paying "more" than the FX1 just for XLR etc. are suddenly valid - the new gap is too much for the feature differences. The only way this new Z1U higher price can be justified is if cf24 is better/fixed on the pro Z1, otherwise I will take the slow-boat to Europe and buy a Pal FX1-E - the cf25 footage posted on the "other" forum looks amazingly filmlike - goodbye DVX100A, XL2... I'll be using HDV for filmmaking mostly.

Since we're on the subject of ridiculous Sony pricing, anyone here know what the silly arm brace thingy is actually going for? That was a hot topic too...

I'll take an FX1 with a Beachtek adaptor. I'll also record my films' audio as a back-up on a DAT.

heath

It looks like I'll probably be doing exactly what Heath is doing. FX1, BeachTec adapter and seperate audio like DAT or some type of external 48k system.

Chris, I never said that HDV wasn't my thing. I said the audio turns me off for the amount of money - it makes more sense to wait and see if something might happen in the meantime. (Probably won't, but the Z1 is 2-3 months away from being in anyone hands anyway with NAB right around the corner.)

I know the saying, "the best time to buy is now". But, I don't agree with that - it must have been created by someone selling product. It's my belief that waiting can have benefits that outweighing buying something you're not completely happy with....and I know that its possible nothing else is on the way in the near future! I'm sure the Z1 is great, and compressed audio is fine. But, it feels like a back-step from using uncompressed audio. THe lower cost of the FX1 will allow me to buy a good DAT. It's a pain in the ass, but oh well.

Murph

<< I know the saying, "the best time to buy is now". - it must have been created by someone selling product. >>

No, it comes from an artistic point of view. If you're waiting, you're not creating.

Friendly disagreement here..."If you're waiting, you're not creating??" I'm sorry, but not buying a video camera doesn't have anything to do with my art! That statement actually seems counter productive to my artistic core. It's not the tool, or if you own it or not. I've done two video projects recently where I had to borrow a camera, and it looks like I'll have to rent a camera Dec. 12th. I'm not creating because I haven't pre-ordered a video camera? I respectfully disagree.

How does waiting to buy a 4 pound hunk of plastic and glass reflect negatively on artists?!

I'm 32 and I've been an artist making a living (least amount I made is like $11,000 in a year and most is $125,000 a year) since 1989. I can't think of one instance where not buying equipment stopped me from creating.

Again, this is a friendly disagreement!

Jeese guys-
I've heard this same "arguement" about computers and pretty much anything having to do with technology.

Seems there's nothing more irritating than shelling out some chunk of change and finding out that there's a faster-better-prettier-sexier-higher resolution-CHEAPER thingy that comes out soon after.

My case in point- bought my G4 dual 1 gig and with the grin still on my face, I read about the new G5 coming out soon from Apple. damnit.

Not being one of the monetarily afffluent type, I tend to watch others test the water and complain, then I'll jump in ( and find there's an entirely new water hole).
Technology is moving and changing. We will all have to "jump in the water" at some point.
Hey- Pixel Pioneering!

Jeff P :>)

Apparently Video Systems has an e-mail newsletter that confirms that the MSRP for the Z1 is supposed to be $5946, and that the earlier $4900 announcement is actually the dealer cost figure.

The post I got this info from quotes the newsletter. The original post is here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=sony;action=display;num=1102028674;start=0#0

I too find the advice of "well, if you need it now, get it now" a little trite.

I could have filmed my feature this past August - we're ready with the script, etc. and our financing is in place. Financing for a digital indie feature, that is. So, I should have gone ahead and shot with an XL2? I have friends who didn't wait and they shot their feature for $20,000 US using XL2 and wow, they're kicking themselves now.

Well, I'm glad we've pushed back half a year... I'm waiting now for 2 reasons....

a) HDV editing workflow with edited m2t's back to HDV tape has JUST been made "the norm" thanks to Canopus and Edius but the NLE lagging behind was a big concern to me with the HDV thing (guess I'm glad I'm at least now 100% PC - the G5's are gone!)

b) wanna see if the Z1 somehow is worth the extra mullah in terms of what I've been told by Sony Canada in terms of Grade A parts vs. Grade B parts, etc. and wow, do things like black stretch, etc. give you better image control vs. FX1... there's also the slight chance that CF24 might be "fixed" on the Z1 based on Charlie White's endorsement of this footage: the fact that the likes of DSE are waiting it out for the pro Z1 make me figure they probably know something...

When Z1 was first announced and all we knew about were XLR's, it sounded ludicrous and I remember saying, well, that's that: I'm going PAL FX1-E with Beachtek. Then the rest of the features came to light and it was a good deal. Now the new price is making me think PAL FX1-E again. But I will wait.

I will wait till the Z1U has actually come out to see how it actually performs - if the cf25/pal mode is the same as PAL FX1-E, then I will see what's the best price on Z1 possible and decide - but if it's up as high as it is now, all else being equal, I will skip the Z1 and go the pal FX1 route and be happy.

I guess this pricing confusion seems disappointing - I think Sony didn't make a mistake with the price as first announced but they've certainly made a mistake by raising it. The camera is good, but overall I like to think of it as the "Vampire" camera because it really seems to do it's best work in low-light and you run into washout problems quickly on bright sunny days, white objects, etc... Yep, Count Dracula would be proud.

Sony is "stupid" for now ripping us off with the new price.

But hey, I'm glad they've introduced this format. Downsampled FX1-E pal footage intercuts nicely with downsampled Dalsa Origin footage - we are surprised.

I think Canon is "stupid" for not having made the XL2 HDV - well, we do know their history, yes, but again I say - what does it tell you about a company if it fails to learn from their mistakes? Canon's philosophy has cost them their place in DV losing to likes of DVX100... they should have re-grouped to become "innovators." But that's another thread all together.

Panasonic is "stupid" by not having joined HDV consortium. Man, they had the digital indie film world by the cajones with 24p on the DVX and now, all too quickly, their offering is basically an afterthrought...

JVC is really Matsushita/Panasonic - they're "stupid" for spending so much time introducing "HDV" via a 1-chip cam with min. 35 lux that doesn't allow for manual controls.

By the way, I myself am very stupid in many ways - perhaps I will start a thread somewhere - it would take way too much typing to get into that here... I just wanted you all to know....

But I think we are smart to wait and see what exactly the situation will be with Z1 in terms of what it offers and for how much - at the very least our feature will be "projectionable" on a big screen without having to go film-out... and our standard DVDs are gonna look amazing.

Like, who can't wait 2 or 3 months?

My XL2 friends aren't laughing anymore and they are starting to think they were "stupid" too.

It's not the camera, it's the skill of the filmmakers.

heath

Agreed.

I shot a short film with the DVX100a this summer; it just got into Sundance, where it will be digitally projected. I've seen some of it on a not-even-great projector already, and I was satisfied.

One of the best things I've ever shot was on Digi-Beta, which was filmed-out and looked great.

Waiting to make a film based on the technology means something might come up and you don't get around to making the film at all. And it's better to have made it in SD than not make it in HD.

If the folks who made that film with the XL2 were happy with what they did, they should still be happy regardless of the announcement of the Sonys. If the film is solid, a few hundred less lines of resolution won't hurt it.

2300 is a lot more over the basic model price

for that you could get a decent hire on a mini35, or a week or so on a Lustre suite and either will give you a lot more than a Z1 could ever give you

============
OR you could get AJA HD10A High Definition Converter (Encoder) at BHphoto and ski your stuff uncompressed into your computer at 600 gig/hr - (just squash it between the beachtek and the base of the FX1- it would look very horny :)
============

Charles I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm just not sure why people are expecting truly pro features on such a camera anyway. HDV gives a better picture quality but not a story.

From what I am seeing now you might as well just buy an FX1 and live with the limitations if you must get one of these cameras.

In any case, why be disheartened if it's not what you expect? NAB2005 is very soon :-)

Wow, just now did I get to know that the Z1's price was raised, apparently!

But is that info for real?

If it is then Sony is really stupid. What they will get is more people going for the FX1, because one thing is a $1500 difference; but if we are talking $2500 more then things don't get so interesting. There are not that much more in the Z1 to pay that kind of money.

In any case, if my info was right, the original planned price for the Z1 had been $6000. But remember that the market rules: the DVC80 was to be priced just $500 less than the DVX100, but the market forced them to go down $1500. Unfortunately then Panasonic realized the 80 was taking customers from the 100 and took it out of the market. Perhaps Sony does that with the FX1.

The only thing that really interested me in the Z1 is it being 60i and 50i. It would be great if someone got to hack the FX1 on that.




Carlos