Over on another forum there's been mention of people shooting with an FX1 experiencing dropouts. They've been attributing it to the camera in HDV mode, but it sounds more like a tape issue to me. So I was just curious what those of you with an FX1 are using in your pride and joy and if you've experienced any of these "dropouts"?

Thanks!

I would imagine it's a tape issue. Sony recommends their DVM-63HD cassette and I think it would be a mistake not to go that route.

Tape is the single least expensive component in the production chain. Therefore, why bother with anything other than the best quality tape you can find. Affordability should not be an issue here.

Dropouts in HDV are potentially far more disastrous than they are in DV.

In DV, every frame is compressed as a complete and distinct unit, not relying on anything else. So if you get a one-frame dropout on DV, you'll get one glitched frame (which can frequently be reasonably repaired in post).

But in HDV, which uses a group of pictures between 6 and (I believe) 15 frames, a one-frame dropout has the potential to affect all frames after it until the next I-frame. With HDV, each frame is built from the prior frame, within each group (group of six for 720P, group of 15 for 1080i). So a change to one frame will affect all the subsequent frames in the group, and may affect frames prior, if the dropout affects a bidirectional frame. So what would otherwise be a minimal event (a one-frame dropout) could end up scragging up to 15 frames!

For this reason, I believe with HDV you should use the very highest quality tape you can possibly get, and I would heartily recommend using a dropout-proof recording system such as the FireStore (Firestore has announced plans to support recording HDV) or DV Rack (assuming they update it to support HDV).

I agree with the others comments above. But I would add this:

Dropout can happen on any format and any tape stock. The best policy is, as was mentioned before, to use the best possible tape stock you can find. Why settle for less?

But, I would also add that the mini-dv tape format is essentially the same no matter what packaging the tape may have. Using a good name brand Mini-DV tape will, I believe, 999 times out of 1000 give you everything that the awesome name brand tape (that costs $4 dollars more) will provide.

So don't go crazy. All Mini-DV tape stock is essentially the same.

But, if you spot a tape stock that looks sketch... Its worth to spend the extra little bit on something you can trust.

Give me another week or so with the camera and I'll tell you if any dropouts have occured. But quite honestly, I don't think there's much of an issue with that problem.

Hope it helps,

-alex

I have only used Panasonic MQ tapes in my two FX1's and I have seen a few tape hits. Using brand new Panasonic MQ tape I think I have seen about one tape hit per 60 minute tape, after recording about 10 tapes in the cameras.

I did make the mistake of re-using a Panasonic MQ tape that had orginally been recorded in DV25 and it had tons of tape hits, 30-40 at least. I was just playing around and would never do such a thing for a real shoot. But it is something to know.

That 15 frame GOP can be painful. Most of my tape hits have been about a half second long!

As far as I know Panasonic MQ is one of the best miniDV tapes made.

I make sure to only use Sony tape in my Sony camera. I have very few issues with dropout, and when I buy the Z1 I will continue to do that. Sony recommend their new extra high quality tape for the FX1/Z1, and for a few extra bucks, im sure its worth it.

I must agree with Shealan -- the Sony DVM-63HD is the tape of choice for their HDV cameras. To quote the press release for the DVM-63HD:

"Designed in conjunction with the new camcorder and VTR is Sony's recommended professional media for HDV applications, DigitalMaster™ videotape. These 63-minute cassettes use Sony's AME II Technology and its unique dual-active magnetic layers. By improving on an already successful product, the new AME II manufacturing process employs Hyper Evaticle IV magnetic grains, improved lubricants, and a refined Diamond-Like Carbon (DLC) layer. DigitalMaster exhibits greater packing density of magnetic grains, higher retentivity, higher output and lower noise. The result is a more robust tape with fewer dropouts and errors."

See also Sony's Technical Fact Sheet for the DVM-53HD Cassette (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5333).

Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now...

Everything is relative. Look at it this way: $18 is a heck of a lot less to pay, compared to $50 for an HDCAM cassette.

You know those nationwide Capital One spots, "What's in Your Wallet?" I'd like to paraphrase that to "What Are Your Images Worth?"

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Okay, I know that tape is the cheapest link in the production process and whatnot...but I heard somewhere that MSRP on this tape is going to be around $18 (US). Is this correct? If so that's a pretty big difference from the $3-$4 I'm usually paying now... -->>>
$13.99 for 10 or more from our sponsor B&H Photo Video. :D

Nice plug :)

IMHO, $18 (USD) for 60-minutes of relatively worry-free recording is nothing.
I like the idea of using a Firestore drive for 100% certainty.
(Unless, of course, the HDD dies.)

I agree. Tape costs are chicken feed. $18 is pocket change for high definition video. Roll tape and the FireStore, and you've got a very reliable system with some built-in redundancy.

I agree with the above... Spend the money properly.

But to be honest, I've never heard of the FireStore..
Yet another product I'm going to have to look into.

-alex

I agree that getting the best tape is worth the money, but I have never found a Sony miniDV tape that was as reliable as Panasonic MQ, or any other miniDV tape that was as reliable as the Panasonic MQ. I have had much better experience with $7 Panasonic MQ tapes than I have with $20 Sony DVCAM tapes. So I wouldn't rely on these new tapes until we know it works better.

For me, tape is cheap. I came to video from shooting 16mm, and back in those days I was spending approximately $125 per ten minute reel for film stock, processing and workprinting. Not counting shipping costs to and from the lab. That means an hour would, in those days, have been about $750. And in addition to shipping, if I had any sound, there was the cost of transferring the 1/4" tape to 16mm mag stock and syncing it up. So, it was probably in the neighborhood of a thousand bucks for an hour of film.

I don't remember the exact cost of 2" tape when I got into video, but 1" was cheaper; and then when I started shooting 3/4" it was about $30 for a 20 minute minicassette. The Betacam SP came around, and it was about $30 for 30 minutes, even cheaper than 3/4". Later on it dropped to under 20 bucks if you bought in quantity. And then, DVCAM arrived and now we pay under 50 bucks for 3 HOUR cassettes. That's almost free by my standards.

If you're shooting an independent film, or if you're making a living doing corporate stuff, TV spots or whatever, it's foolish, in my opinion, to use anything less than the best tape stock you can get. If you're shooting home movies with a single chip camcorder, then maybe you wouldn't want to spend over 5 bucks for a tape; that's understandable. For real work, though, $18 for an hour tape is nothing.

I agree that tape is cheap. And the price of Sony's HDV tapes doesn't really bother me. However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. (knowing that the cheaper the tape, the worse the dropouts are most likely going to be)

When I decided to get back into video 1.5 years ago, I learned the hard way about some of the "cheaper" tape brands out there. Ever since I've shot on Panasonic MQ tapes. I know that when I buy myself a Z1U, that I'll most likely be shooting onto Sony's HDV tapes. Unless of course someone comes out with a better tape! :)

I've been using Sony DVCAM tapes for about 4 years now and have had no dropout problems. I shot Betacam SP for a dozen years before that and used Fuji almost exclusively and had no trouble with it. Back when Ampex was making Betacam SP tape I had a few tapes with problems, but when I switched to Fuji all was well. I think you're right--they key is to use quality tape stock. And, handle it properly and keep dirt out of your camera and decks. Also, the only time I ever reuse tape is for worktape for copying artwork and things like that. I always use new stock for any shoot.

Some good feedback here for sure.

I would like to say, hopefully its not OT but DVCPro has been a huge problem for us. It was truly reminisent of the Hi-8 days (if your memories go back that far).

So really, anything is going to be better then thoughs brands.
But don't forget, NO STOCK IS PERFECT. Even film, as it was mentioned, can have issues if the gate isn't checked properly.

Though you won't get dropout on film obviously, there are litterally a hundred other problems that can happen.

______________

Now, IMO, its all well and good to say to spend money on good tape stock. But I'm curious.

For HDV systems, What is the best tape stock currently available? Any opinions? I've never had issues with MAXELL 60's.. But I'm curious ...

...Guys, what do you think? Whats the best stock available?

Our experience has been that DVCpro is SOLID, but only if you spend lots of
money to keep *the deck serviced*. Most problems come from decks that need
work. They have a tranisitor that burns out after a thousand hours and
you have to replace them ALL.
Everyone of our (10) 650s has required $1k-3k of repairs.
The lack of firewire turned us toward DSR-11s and we quickly found out about
the 'prosumer' DSR11 and how Sony is now on its 9th "basket" revision.

My experience with DVCAM is that the three hour tapes have more dropouts
than good miniDV stock like Sony PR, EX and Panny Pro. I even found _slight_
drop outs on DVCAM two hour tapes recently. I ponied for the DVCAM
Master Quality and they're great, but $38.00 for a two hour . . . oof!
Panny Pro miniDV stock is probably the best buy . . .
I can't remember a drop out!!!

But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times
the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs
using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff
'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Our
But back to the thread: I don't see how HDV trying to cover four times
the pixel count of NTSC (or PAL) can look acceptable when DV barely hangs
using the same bandwidth? Don't give me, 'it's a better codec' stuff
'cuz MPEG2 is OLD and NO ONE is going to make the mistake of DV!!! -->>>

The way I'm imaginging the process, if I understand correctly, is HDV is really only recording two-frames per second of 60i HD rez. Due to the 15 frame GOP, the other 28 frames are just the difference between those two frames, and the first frame of the next second. I guess usually this is a lot less information.

Anybody think that when the Z1 comes out, that using DVCam tapes might help to avoid dropouts? If I"m correct, DVcam tapes are suppose to be much sturdier and more robust than DV tapes and help to avoid dropouts alot more than DV tapes. So, I'm curious if that's an avenue to take with the Z1.

Also, since Sony is releasing the DVM63HD, which is a DV tape which is supposed to handle the HDV images alot better that a standard DV tape for the FX1, any chance that Sony might come out with an equivalent type of tape for their Z1 which records on DVcam tapes? Maybe some sort of HDVcam tape??

Ozzy

<<<-- Originally posted by Curtis Rhoads : However, since Sony's HDV tape isn't out (last I checked), I was curious as to what people were shooting on, and how the dropouts were across the different brands of tape. -->>>

The Sony HDV tape has been out ever since the FX-1 has been out. I've had two boxes of them at my house for the last few weeks.

Ozzy,
You can use the DVCAM tapes in the FX-1 or any DV camera to record DV footage. The DVM63HD will work in the FX-1 and Z1 to record HDV footage- there is no need for another tape. There is no HDVCAM recording- DVCAM on the Z1 is SD DV only.

I found Sony HDV Tapes for $11.69
I'll be getting my FX1 next week
If these tapes are designed for the FX1 that is what I'll use
My 24 Track Audio Deck, I only use Tapes it was Bio'sed for
Using tape thats has be engineered for it is worth not losing That one shot


http://store.yahoo.com/edgewisemedia/somidvhd63mi.html