I've read through some on the posts, and found tidbits here and there on apge 12 of a 14 page thread here, a suggestion there.... but still no One Big List.....

so... If I buy an FX1 TODAY, what do I need to start editing the footage TONIGHT?

I've got a fast Dual Xeon P4, a fast Mac G4 and a dual G5 on the way. I own FCP HD and have the budget to buy whatever software I need to edit. Doesnt matter what platform, what software as long as I can edit TODAY (meaning not having to wait for the next version of something to be released). I want to output back to the FX1 or to a Pro HD deck (you pick the format) for cable/satelite distribution.


What do I need?

Since your goal includes output in the original format back to tape, then your workflow may be best with a program that can edit the source footage in its "native" format. As of today the best options I know of for that are Sony Vegas 5 and Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 for PCs, and I can't say for sure that Pinnacle is ready to accept footage from the FX1. (Check with them about that.) I don't know of any way to edit and output in the native format on Macs today, but I've heard that Apple will incorporate that option into their software within a few months or so. You might also want to check with Ulead to see if their HDV plugin has been updated for the FX1: I checked their web site recently and it didn't indicate that was the case.

Canopus has indicated that sometime this month they'll start shipping their "Edius SP for HDV" hardware/software combo, which looks like it will blow away anything else that anyone has proposed to date for editing HDV. It's a little pricey at a retail of just under $4000, but it has impressive input/output options and realtime HDV editing capability. Depending on your needs you may find the Edius software a bit limiting, but the company is adding features as fast as they can and it's very capable within the bounds of what it can do. I've been using Canopus products for several years now and can recommend them as quite stable even for long video projects, so hopefully they'll continue that trend for HDV. See link:
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/EDIUS_HDV_SP/pm_EDIUS_HDV_SP.asp

You may also want a DVHS recorder for your output, unless someone else can recommend a more robust deck option. Do a web search for "DVHS recorder" and you'll find the JVC models.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw :
Canopus has indicated that sometime this month they'll start shipping their "Edius SP for HDV" hardware/software combo, which looks like it will blow away anything else that anyone has proposed to date for editing HDV. . -->>>


It certainly does blow away the competition for RT performance!
We did 4 layers of HDV (3 PIPs over a background) in RT with no dropped frames. Real RT. Not some "preview". We're talking out to an HD monitor.

Michael, what's the cost of Edius SP for HDV?

if you have a dual g5 on the way get a fcp solution, you cannot get a more polished nle for the money...

although the specs on the card seems good, the nle is edius, its good for straight cuts simple editing...its cc tools score an F, and lack of keyframing hinders some, but the lack of any channel sound tools 2.1 or 5.1 is a major drawback, edius is not a subframe editor another reason to stay away

on a positive note, every year edius grows by leaps and bounds, so maybe by version 3.5 it can be a more complete solution

Retail price is $3999, plus you need a dual-processor computer with a 64-bit PCI slot. That's some real change if you're a small operation, but not bad if you plan to do a lot of HDV work and have clients to pay for it.

Robert: in the context of HDV editing, Canopus is well ahead of Final Cut Pro for dealing with the new format. If you want to edit HDV effectively on Macs you should plan to wait a few months for the new video core; current Mac-based HDV solutions involve time-consuming workarounds and an editing codec which reduces the horizontal resolution.

I'm not sure why you would give the color correction tools for Edius an "F," because they're at least functional with several different options and a usable white balance filter. Works for me for DV editing, and it runs in real time even on my laptop.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : Retail price is $3999, plus you need a dual-processor computer with a 64-bit PCI slot. That's some real change if you're a small operation, but not bad if you plan to do a lot of HDV work and have clients to pay for it. -->>>


Actually Kevin... You can get the card and put it in a 32bit PCI slot. You'll lose the RT component outout but you'll still get stellar RT performance.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw :
I'm not sure why you would give the color correction tools for Edius an "F," because they're at least functional with several different options and a usable white balance filter. Works for me for DV editing, and it runs in real time even on my laptop. -->>>


Just a note.. The new CC tools in Edius Pro are VERY good. They could be better but at least now you have split screen and scene match tools. Not to mention real color wheels just like the competition.

<<<-- I'm not sure why you would give the color correction tools for Edius an "F," because they're at least functional with several different options and a usable white balance filter. Works for me for DV editing, and it runs in real time even on my laptop. -->>>

canopus cc tools are very cumbersome, hard to make subtle changes, vs lets say vegas, fcp or my favorite express..this weakness will be magnified when your working with hd or hdv..which makes sense why they needed to update what ever algorithm they used in edius 2.5 for editing hd...

canopus has not changed it's cc tools since the dv storm came out, some 6-7 years ago, a few years back they introduced their white balance filter, which really is more like secondary cc, and it works ok, but when you used more intutive cc tools the issues with canopus cc tools are magnified

Michael is a moderator at the edius forums, and has been fortunate enough to use the new great hardware, I'm going to check it out at bh this week, see what edius pro 3 has to offer...

as far being well ahead of dealing with hdv then fcp this is true, but if your ok with using 3d party tools to import your footage, fcp is the better nle by a long shot.

"canopus has not changed it's cc tools since the dv storm came out, some 6-7 years ago"

I don't believe that's a correct statement. The way I remember it, the original Canopus cc tools had one set of limited single-setting filters, but now I have several different types of tools and can get full control over blacks, whites and greys for a variety of characteristics. Maybe not as good as what other programs offer, but much better than what Canopus used to have.

"if your ok with using 3d party tools to import your footage, fcp is the better nle by a long shot."

No argument that FCP is a more advanced editing program, but I wouldn't use it for any serious HDV work at this time. According to someone who's using FCP, it takes him roughly seven minutes per minute of source footage just to convert HDV to the DVCProHD format, so that's seven hours per hour of source before you can even start editing. And if I understand correctly, DVCProHD has a lower horizontal resolution than the Sony HDV footage, so you'd be giving up some image quality--which kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a high-resolution camera. For basic HDV editing Canopus is clearly preferable to FCP (for now), and if you need more advanced editing features than Adobe Premiere Pro with the Aspect HD plugin would be an even better way to go.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : I don't believe that's a correct statement. The way I remember it, the original Canopus cc tools had one set of limited single-setting filters, but now I have several different types of tools and can get full control over blacks, whites and greys for a variety of characteristics. Maybe not as good as what other programs offer, but much better than what Canopus used to have. -->>>

kevin your wrong on this, i still have my orginal book that came with my my dv storm circa 1999, cc tools have not changed one bit, gui is the same they work the same, the current ones in edius got an edius facelift, but controls have not changed, if your talking about the added wb filter, thats not a primary cc tool, and i have already mentioned this above

as far as hdv with fcp, a beta version of fcphd was running at ibc, editing a native stream from the fx-1 , it should be out soon, a lot sooner then edius catches up to fcp feature wise, with that said you can edit hdv on fcp TODAY with Lumiere,

you can also edit on Vegas video TODAY with CineForm's Connect HD or Aspect HD for premiere pro...sony will have a promotional price of $149 for connect soon, but you can buy it the regular price today...$399

with all that, nobody knows how buggy this new system from canopus will be or when it will actualy ship, canopus is known for delaying products, like it with proocder 2 where they delayed it for 6 months...

matrox axio is also coming soon, it will edit two rt streams of hd using ppro as the editor...who knows when it will ship as well...but the price is $11,495

i may add the liquid edition can also edit hdv TODAY, but from what i heard of it, its capture utility is bit buggy, it can only live capture, hit play on the camera and hit capture on the screen, no batch and to capture a new clip you have to exit and re-enter the capture utlity...but for $500 not bad, of course as an nle you have some learning to do...

Edius SP for HDV starts shipping Dec 1st.

Matrox will do two streams of HDV for $11,500?
LOL... Good for them.. ROFL!

As for the Edius Pro CC tools...
http://www.tekvideo.net/images/cc_epro.jpg

Here's the full .pdf of new features.


http://www.canopus.us/US/pdf/cc_edius_pro3_featureLIST.pdf

"as far as hdv with fcp, a beta version of fcphd was running at ibc, editing a native stream from the fx-1 , it should be out soon"

That's good news for Mac users, but still not as good an approach to HDV as converting to an intermediary codec like Canopus, Cineform and Avid are doing. As far as stability is concerned, I'd expect Canopus to do well in that regard, as they typically have when using their software with their hardware. Of course if Canopus doesn't actually ship new HDV products that's a different story, but they already have a software-only solution for JVC HDV so it shouldn't be long now for the Sony version.

"you can also edit on Vegas video TODAY with CineForm's Connect HD or Aspect HD for premiere pro..."

Yes, and those are two more solutions which are well ahead of where FCP will be any time soon for doing HDV work. And they're both generally regarded as more advanced than Edius in terms of editing features, so if you don't need the particular I/O features of Edius SP you've got some other good choices. What Edius SP has is the best real-time HDV capabilities and I/O options of any current or proposed HDV editing product, within the limitations of what the software can do. I'll be surprised to ever see anything comparable to Canopus SP for HDV for the Mac platform, unless Matrox adapts the Axio product you mentioned--which as you pointed out costs three times as much. (And does less as far as HDV is concerned.)

Although I have not yet edited in HD...FC-4 is a very stable system, I have 2 G5s (2 & 2.5Gig) I also have an almost redundant PC system (Premiere Pro 1.5 & RTX 100). The PC system was good when it worked and crashed at least 3-4 times a day. The G5 has been a God send and my through put of work has doubled due to its stability. FCP-4 HD is set up fot Hi-Def and you would be hard pressed to get a more stable platform than the Apple.

I can count the times EDIUS 2.X crashed if I only count my thumbs. I leave it running sometimes 24/7 for weeks without a single crash. It's the most stable NLE I've used (other than *Edit.. also by Canopus). Period.

I've had similar experiences to Michael's, and if it wasn't for Canopus I suppose I might be taking a closer look at Macs for video editing.

Regarding Macs and HDV editing, it's just not very practical at this time. The best working solution is to convert your HDV source footage to the DVCProHD format, which is very time-consuming and reduces the image quality before you even get started editing. Sometime soon Apple may release "native" HDV support for Final Cut Pro, at which point you'll be able edit HDV more conveniently on high-end G5 Macs...but possibly with some issues for anything involving chromakeying or other advanced effects. Around the middle of next year Apple will supposedly have a new OS with new video support technology, which may finally catch up with currently shipping PC HDV solutions. But then you'll probably have to buy a "G6" Mac to even run that software.

For the original poster who has a fast PC plus a G5 Mac on order, the PC will easily offer better HDV options for now. Use the Macs for DV editing if that tickles your fancy, and use the PC as a dedicated HDV workstation until Apple gets their act together.