I absolutely love my 5D2, and as primarily a photography, I'd never give up my FF just because of the wide angles. Not to say I wouldn't own a cropped body as a second, I would, and I do right now, so the 7D is actually looking mighty impressive to me at this point.I'm in the same boat. I really enjoy my 5D Mk. II primarily for taking photos, and I'm keeping it -- and I'm looking for a way to justify buying the EF 14mm f/2.8 L II rectilinear for it. And it looks like I'll be a 7D customer as well... all I need now is a fatter wallet.

EF 14mm f/2.8 L II rectilinear...
Pure Good. I've had FD and EF versions, priceless. The FD L version was so smooth and solid...

T

all I need now is a fatter wallet.

Or we need the Administration to authorize a clunker buyout for video/photo gear. I got an FX1 with a bad firewire port I would trade....

Anybody see any information on file size and file size limits? I'm sure hoping I can record a longer sequence than 12-14 minutes or this all this new features are going to mean squat.

I ordered one today and would sell my GH1 which is my B cam, if I thought the file size limitation had been worked out. Hope I missed it, but haven't read anything about it so far.

Will be disappointed if the first reports of no manual audio settings are true.
Will also be disappointed if I can't record 30-60 minutes or more for one file.
Am already disappointed that the LCD is fixed.

Keeping my fingers crossed that there are more video settings to what they announced, but knowing Canon, I won't hold my breath.

Have the donations started to get T Hudson a 7D?

Anybody see any information on file size and file size limits? I'm sure hoping I can record a longer sequence than 12-14 minutes or this all this new features are going to mean squat.

It is still 12min or 4G for Hi Def basically

T

It is still 12min or 4G for Hi Def basically

T

How short sighted.

Just spent some more time on the Canon specs and I am not feeling full HDMI live out either.

Still not the complete package. Maybe Nikon will bring it.

Bryan, this only indicates their marketing and R&D folks were sitting in a heavily sealed vault all the time and followed no forums in the past 2-3 years, when all talking was about how to make the flat video looks more alive with various tricks. Redrock, Letus and let me not list all the makers of little black boxes that ripped millions of bucks from the wallets of those who wanted to use their Canon still lenses for better DOF. Canon guys never noticed that? Hmm, hard to believe. And excuse moi... I bend over in front of mighty Reuters, but how many bloody news photographers do they have (let alone all of them use Nikon)? is that A market? DA market??
.

I suspect stills camera manufacturers tend not to hang around video and film making forums. Quality film making is more than having a shallow DOF, some of the greatest films have a deep depth of field and a film's requirements may demand anything from a 1/3" to an IMAX camera.

If you're selling what is supposed to be a professional still camera system it is a market. Their demands have pushed the manufacture of fast telephoto lenses and other developments. The stills camera manufacturers will have seen that newspapers would have the same need for their web sites. Canon and Nikon are in competition and high end non-professionals also love having that pro kit, so increasing the production run.

People should bear in mind that most video cameras rarely, if ever have a 35mm adapter fitted.

You should think this question from a "new customer" perspective. What incitement does the new customer have to buy the 5DmkII, if the 7D (on paper) out performs it?

You should think of this question from a "not a video person" perspective. These are still cameras, sold primarily and in greatest volume to still photographers. There are plenty of people who would choose the 5D over the 7D simply because of the full frame sensor, and who don't really care about the video differences. I see the 5D and 7D relationship to be more like that of the 1D and 1Ds - which one you buy depends on what type of shooting you do.

The same could be asked why didn't they enable full manual settings in video mode right off the bat on the 5D2, and had to release a firmware update to address this isssue?


Ok, but by the same token if it's a simple software issue why not enable the additional framerates when they released the manual control firmware update?


One reason I've seen given is that Digic 4 may not support the frame rate; however, the 7D has the same processor (albeit 2 of them) and I don't see why a firmware couldn't implement these other modes. Besides, wouldn't 30p require more processing than 24p? After all, 24 fps represent a full 20% reduction in the number of frames to be captured and processed compared to 30.

It sounds logical to me, but I'm not a video engineer. It could be that it's not simply a question of processing power but of something in the nature of the hardware itself. I think you're right that they were caught off guard by the popularity of the video features. To me it seems plausible that there is some sort of hardware clock that regulates the rate at which data is read out from the sensor - if they weren't anticipating the demand for multiple or specific frame rates they might not have worried about that at design time because it had little or no bearing on the camera's primary use for still photography.

I don't agree that the vast majority of users for this camera are photographers.

With all due respect, please show we another DSRL camera that didn't have HD video features and cost over $2500 that was sold out for 9 solid months. Nov-Sept here in the states. They are still hard to get.

I do not have any knowledge of the percentage of 5D mkII users whom bought this camera for HD purposes as their primary usage. However, my gut feeling is that there are as many video people using this camera as photographers.

My opinion is subjective. More a gut feeling. Does anyone have any objective information to shed light on this?

Sorry Jim, but I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't think the photographer to videographer ratio is anywhere near 50% for the 5D Mk. II. I think it's closer to 20% video, and that's being generous. But, like you, it's just a gut feeling I have. I'm unaware of any firm statistics.

please show we another DSRL camera that didn't have HD video features and cost over $2500 that was sold out for 9 solid months. The first 5D. The original 5D. $3300 and impossible to get.

I was at the Portland Historic Races a couple of months ago, and the 5D2 was very popular. I saw a guy with a photo pass on the other side of the fence with one. I talked to a couple with another, and they were curious about my setup. I saw about three more 5D2 neck straps in the crowd. I didn't see any single model of DSLR that was as popular.

As far as I could tell, I was the only one shooting video - at least I was the only one crazy enough to lug a tripod, shoulder rig and microphone around the track. :)

Of the 56 teams to compete in the 48 Hour Film Festival in Portland, only two teams used the 5D2 to my knowledge. (Hi Andy Batt. You guys were robbed. ;) )

Sorry Jim, but I'll have to disagree with you.

I don't think the photographer to videographer ratio is anywhere near 50% for the 5D Mk. II. I think it's closer to 20% video, and that's being generous. But, like you, it's just a gut feeling I have. I'm unaware of any firm statistics.

The first 5D. The original 5D. $3300 and impossible to get.

Were they impossible to get for 9 months?

They were impossible to get for two years!

I don't think the photographer to videographer ratio is anywhere near 50% for the 5D Mk. II. I think it's closer to 20% video, and that's being generous. But, like you, it's just a gut feeling I have. I'm unaware of any firm statistics.

Don't know if anyone would have those statistics. Best way I can think of to get some indication is to look at what's online...

A search for '5DmkII' on Vimeo returns 1000 videos, going back about a year.

A similar search on youtube shows just over 1600 videos.

I'm assuming there's some crossover between the two sites. I'm guessing most users have multiple videos posted. If we assume an average of 3-4 per person we're probably looking at ~500 users.

The Flickr camera finder for the 5DmkII shows 1,986 users uploading 39,433 photos... yesterday.

I don't think the photographer to videographer ratio is anywhere near 50% for the 5D Mk. II. I think it's closer to 20% video, and that's being generous. But, like you, it's just a gut feeling I have. I'm unaware of any firm statistics.


I agree with you here, Chris. I'd put it closer to 5-10%. But I think video caused a *huge* increase in sales from photographers. The other features, too.


The original 5D. $3300 and impossible to get. [...]
They were impossible to get for two years!

OK, here I kindly disagree with you. The 5D1 did set sales records, but not the kind Canon likes. Records for how fast the price dropped, how many incentives were offered to move it from the shelves, and how steep the rebates were. Very few people paid the full $3,300; vendors dropped to $3,000 the first month it hit the shelves. Then came more price reductions later, and a huge $700 rebate. Dell had a promotion to get one for $2,050 after rebates, and B&H was $2,150 for a while. Refurbs were even lower.

I think Canon overestimated the 5D1 market, and manufactured too many units. They cut back on production for the 5D2, having learned their lesson from the 5D1 failure. But being the first Canon DSLR with video (and first FF35 and first 1080p) caused an unexpected explosion in sales.

Don't know if anyone would have those statistics. Best way I can think of to get some indication is to look at what's online...

A search for '5DmkII' on Vimeo returns 1000 videos, going back about a year.

A similar search on youtube shows just over 1600 videos.

I'm assuming there's some crossover between the two sites. I'm guessing most users have multiple videos posted. If we assume an average of 3-4 per person we're probably looking at ~500 users.

The Flickr camera finder for the 5DmkII shows 1,986 users uploading 39,433 photos... yesterday.


I'm with you, I bet the ratio is more like 100:1 for folks who would say primarily for photos vs. primarily for video. This thing is probably owned by every pro photojournalist and wedding photographer shooting canon, plus so many other photogs. There's no doubt in mind my at all, this thing is PRIMARILY a stills camera, for god's sake the thing shoots 21mp RAW full frame stills with great ISO performance... It's a sick camera no doubt, video is just a bonus for a lot of us, heh.

for god's sake the thing shoots 21mp RAW full frame stills with great ISO performance... It's a sick camera no doubt, video is just a bonus for a lot of us, heh.

Does this mean the cam has been designed for those who gonna shoot for huge poster prints in dark environment?

There is one thing no one came up with yet. 5DM2 is the first 1080p file based solid state recording HD camera that can natively use any Canon type SLR lens. Any other one requires expensive additional equipment for the same result.
This is the big deal about 5DM2, this is why it is exciting for video makers. The same thing with enabled controls and a video cam form factor would be a killer in the "normal" videocam market. That may come soon from Canon. Or Nikon might enter videocam market...why not?

Has anyone heard any word from Canon on a firmware upgrade that will allow the variable frame rates as the 7D does ???

I personally emailed Canon to voice my frustrations, and I hope everyone else (5D Mark II owners) are doing the same !!!!!

Thoughts ???

Has anyone heard any word from Canon on a firmware upgrade that will allow the variable frame rates as the 7D does ???


Yes. Chuck Westfall, acting in official capacity for Canon, made the following official statement today at 5:16 PM PDT on a different forum when asked about 24p for the 5D2:

"I can't comment on Canon's future plans or products, however Canon is always listening to its customers. Thanks!"

Of course, that was probably not the answer you were looking for. :)

That was about as helpful as if he'd have replied: "Hi, my name is Chuck." (sigh)

So I guess we'll just have to wait yet another long period of time before we know for sure.
Sounds like most on here are speculating that there will NOT be an available upgrade option for the 5D Mark II to have adjustable frame rates for video recording.

I've always been a Canon customer. Sad day if they do not update the firmware!

Lets do another petition to Canon for adjustable framerate upgrade. I am sure they will listen. If not at least we tried. Guess how we got Canon to give us manual control?

Ahem! anyone would like to take the lead?

Ahem! anyone would like to take the lead?

We have to convince Phil Bloom about this leadership. He has got the credit for being taken seriously.

"I can't comment on Canon's future plans or products, however Canon is always listening to its customers. Thanks!"

Didn't we get a similar ambiguous comment from one of the Canon guys shortly before the firmware update in June?



I bought the 5D2 because I wanted the kind of high quality, short DoF, low light capabilities I saw in the EX1 and EX3 with the Letus, but simply couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford the camera, lenses, lens adapters and SXS cards which altogether came to a lot more than the 5D2. When I discovered the 5D2 and the sheer quality of the pics for the price I was over the moon.
I've been using it now for 8 months and I still love it to bits, for stills for my work and even more so for the video quality.

I will be showing my ignorance here, but since you're all pretty decent people I don't mind. I can't actually tell the difference between 30p and 25p when I watch it. I'll have to take on trust that it's better.
I see great quality images as being more than that, it's about lighting, subject and angles etc etc and although the price of the 7D looks OK (although, as Phil says, not THAT brilliant in the UK) and I would consider it as a second cam for the reach, I don't feel cheated in any way that Canon have these features on the new camera. Top and tail is, my 5D2 is ace, and the 7D doesn't change that for me.

Avey

...............

I think Canon overestimated the 5D1 market, and manufactured too many units. They cut back on production for the 5D2, having learned their lesson from the 5D1 failure. But being the first Canon DSLR with video (and first FF35 and first 1080p) caused an unexpected explosion in sales.

The 5D, and now the 5DII, have been hugely successful products for Canon. Where do you get your information? Why do you think Canon is constantly struggling to keep camera bodies and 'L' lenses in stock?
Attend any trade show relating to photography or video and see for yourself.

Lets do another petition to Canon for adjustable framerate upgrade. I am sure they will listen. If not at least we tried. Guess how we got Canon to give us manual control?

Ahem! anyone would like to take the lead?

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

Like some others on here, I've also read that Canon developed video capability for the 5D MKII as a response to Associated Press and Reuters wanting their photographers to also be able to shoot video (thus they avoid paying for a second person on the crew). In fact, I know a newspaper feature writer/photographer who uses the camera in just that manner--primarily for stills but he does an occasional video shoot.

One thing I've learned about equipment over many years is that it is what it is--never buy anything that's not the way you want it when you buy it. The changes you want almost never happen. If you want 24p, you have to buy a camera that shoots 24p. Buying a camera that doesn't when you want it and assuming there will be a software upgrade that will do it is putting way too much faith in the corporate world, in my opinion.

As an example, look at the XH A1--great camera for the money and I love it. I would love it more if one of those programmable buttons on the side would turn on and off the OIS so I wouldn't have to go into the menu every time I put the camera on or take it off the tripod. Should be a firmware upgrade, right? Wrong. The XH A1s model gives you that feature but they didn't put up something for me to download to make my camera do that. I don't know if they could or not. But, I didn't buy that camera thinking that would ever happen. I just assumed it probably never would happen. I would have been incredibly surprised if it had.

It's similar to commercial real estate salesmen. Over many years of renting offices and studios in commercial buildings around the area, there's one thing I learned: they lie. "We're gonna have a restaurant on the top floor...we're putting in new elevators...we're gonna remodel the whole building exterior...we're gonna have a shared conference room with computers and free wifi...we're gonna rebuild all the bathrooms..." and on and on. It never happens. You rent space based on what it is, not on what they say they will do, because they never follow through.

Also, if shooting 24p is the holy grail and you must have it, check out Graham Nattress' effects and/or Magic Bullet. The 5D MKII has been used on more than one feature film as a secondary camera, and they treated the footage in post to do the 24p thing. I've seen some good looking footage from Nattress' effects, and they're cheap. About a hundred bucks and you get the 24p look. If I could afford a 5D MKII, I'd buy one. To me shooting 30 frames per second is a perfectly good tradeoff for that big chip. I prefer 24 fps for the work I do, but it's not critical, just a preference, sort of in the category of I do so because I can. If I couldn't, nobody who sees my final products would ever know the difference. Look at all those documentaries shot for years with the old venerable PD150, and even feature films with early Digibeta cameras, all of which only did 30 fps. All my stuff ends up on the web and 24 is less than 30 so I save a bit of data in the pipeline and I don't have to deinterlace, so I like it. But if I had a 5D MKII I could live without it easily.

As a matter of minor interest, the reporter guy I know with the 5DMKII wants an XH A1 for shooting video. For him, the shallow depth of field is not worth the tradeoff from a dedicated video camera. It's all in what you do and what you want.

Looks like this clarifies our question...

Dear Billy Griffin:

Thank you for writing to us regarding your 5D Mark II. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

We are always looking to improve our cameras through firmware updates whenever possible, but right now I have no reason to believe that frame-rate control will be added to the 5D Mark II through firmware or hardware updates. With that said, Canon doesn't announce firmware updates until we are ready to make them available to the public, so I don't know what updates we have in development.

I hope that helps, but please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your Canon equipment.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Nick
Technical Support Representative

The only thing clarified is that we won't hear anything official about any firmware release until it is ready to be downloaded - if ever. The "I have no reason to believe" line is just another way of saying that the 5D Mark II is being sold based on its current specs, period.

It's not as though Canon is having any difficulty selling 5D2's at the moment. I had a difficult time procuring one just recently, and the camera has been out for approximately a year.

Why do you think Canon is constantly struggling to keep camera bodies and 'L' lenses in stock?


I was only talking about the 5D1, not their other bodies or L lenses.

Where do you get your information?

My own two eyes. I followed the price and availability closely because I planned to buy one. The used 5D I got was from a friend who paid $1,750 for it brand new. I didn't print out the rebates or the B&H cart, but let me see if I can go back after the fact and substantiate any of my claims with a few Google searches...

* August 2005, list price announced at $3,300:

Canon EOS 5D Review: 2. Specifications: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS5D/page2.asp)

* October 1, Canon 5D first hits the shelves for $3,200 and $3,300 at B&H, J&R, Amazon:

Sep, Oct 2005: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-News/News-Archive-0008.aspx)

* December 2005, price dropped to $2999 at B&H and most retailers

Amazon has it for $2999: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=16288169)

* December 2005: Brick and Mortar stores dropped to $3050, reported slow sales:

Canon 5d sales slow....... - Canon Digital Photography Forums (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122758)

Adray Camera is another big store that couldn't move them.

* April 2006: $300 rebate

NEWS! - Canon: Rebates on Rebel XT, 5D and more (http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1144691698.html)

(This one lasted until July.)

* October 2006: $600 (!) rebate

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/Promotions/CIWC_Form_Oct06.pdf

* October 2007: $2,200 (!) at Adorama. $1800 after Pixma rebate+sale

Sep, Oct 2007: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-News/News-Archive-0020.aspx)

You could combine it with the Pixma printer rebate, then sell the printer, for a final price of $1800 on the 5D.

* July 2008: $1800 (!!) after instant rebate at J&R, Adorama, and Amazon.

Jul, Aug 2008: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-News/News-Archive-0025.aspx)

That was in the face of the "official" MSRP that dropped from $3,300 to $2,500:

Canon EOS 5D Digital SLR (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=11933)

EDIT: Roger Cicala operates a large rental house (lensrentals.com). Today he said (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/809575/2#7484403):
"...I can't give you Canon's sales figures, but I can give you figures from a large rental house: we stock 3 times more 5D2s than we did 5Ds at their peak (and that was our previously best renting camera). The 5D2 rents more than 3 times more frequently than any other camera we've ever stocked and the number would be higher except we never could get enough to keep them in stock."

Also, there are people tracking 5D2 serial numbers, that think it indicates 4X higher sales (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=32898089) than the original 5D in its first year.

In short, the 5D broke all sorts of records for how fast the price dropped, how far it dropped, and how steep and frequent the rebates were. It was unprecedented for Canon. I think it indicates that they greatly overestimated the sales of that unit, and I think that contributed to them greatly *under* estimating the sales of the 5D2. My guess is that the video feature blew the doors off their expectations.

Looks like this clarifies our question...

This is same letter I got when Canon said there would be no firmware update to the Canon 5D Mark II to give us manual control.

...In short, the 5D broke all sorts of records for how fast the price dropped, how far it dropped, and how steep and frequent the rebates were. It was unprecedented for Canon. I think it indicates that they greatly overestimated the sales of that unit, and I think that contributed to them greatly *under* estimating the sales of the 5D2. My guess is that the video feature blew the doors off their expectations.

Excellent analysis, Daniel!

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

Oh hell yeah there's a financial penalty. There's going to be hoards of people who would have bought a 5D2 if it had 24p that are instead going to opt for a 7D. That's leaving a whole lot of dough on the table if it's as simple as providing 24p in a 5D2 firmware update. That point will certainly not be lost on the bean counters. My thought on this is if it is technically possible, they will do it for this reason alone. Also, I actually take Chuck's comment as a positive when reading between the lines.

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.
That is quite possibly the best point to make when figuring out why 24/25p implementation on the 5Dmk2 isn't a priority for them.
That, and when somebody said: "hey, these indie filmmakers are dedicated, persistent, and resourceful...howabout instead of just giving them the 24p via firmware update, now knowing how desperately they want it, we make them buy it for the low price of $1700...They'll do it"

The difference is that automobile manufacturers provide service manuals so that you can tune your own car.

I'm certainly hoping for a firmware update from Canon for the 5D Mark II. I don't believe there to be a hardware reason that slower frame rates would cause any problems: the T1i does 20 fps with a single DIGIC4. The higher frame rates, like 720p60 could certainly use the dual DIGIC chips, especially to reduce vertical aliasing during the downsample or to reduce the effective scanrate of the electronic shutter.
Another great point that I've been expressing elsewhere.
Since they're capable of dropping 10 frames with no discernable increase in rolling shutter artifacts or other glitches, why not 6 fewer frames?
If there was enough lead time, I'd propose an experiment to test and identify Canon's motivation for implementing certain features on the 7D and not the 5D via a strategically timed 24p/25p firmware hack two weeks before the 7D launches. We could observe how quickly after an unidentified number of 7D orders are cancelled that Canon tries to shut down the spread of the 24p/25p hack, thus validating the hypothesis that Canon selectively chose not to implement 24p/25p on the 5Dmk2 not for technological reasons, but other reasons.
Though, I don't think we really need an experiment as time and energy consuming as that to make that point.

That is quite possibly the best point to make when figuring out why 24/25p implementation on the 5Dmk2 isn't a priority for them.
That, and when somebody said: "hey, these indie filmmakers are dedicated, persistent, and resourceful...howabout instead of just giving them the 24p via firmware update, now knowing how desperately they want it, we make them buy it for the low price of $1700...They'll do it"

Not so sure myself. Like I said before, if you have nothing right now, it's going to be much more tempting to buy a 7d if 24p is important to you, so that's a potentially lost 5D sale right there, so less cash to Canon. Then, for folks who already have a 5D2 and dump it to buy a 7D instead, well again, there's one more 5D2 on the used market and one less person buying a new 5D2. For those who might buy a 7D and keep their 5D2, then again, they might have bought a second 5D2 if it had 24p, plus if they are willing to own two bodies like that, they probably would have bought two anyway (pretty much every serious photographer is going to have at least two good bodies, same goes for videographers too, no?). If it's technically possible, and given the current product lineup (the 5D2 being up market from the 7D), they'd be fools to not provide 24p if it's possible.

Indeed Bill, I have been considering a second 5D2 but now will probably go for the 7D sometime in the next few months. (because it's cheaper)

Voting with the ol wallet.

Avey

My company was in the process of planning to purchase two 5D Mark IIs, but now we will most likely consider going another route entirely. If Canon does not offer support and continued improvements on their equipment, then we may look at some of the Sony video options.

Indeed Bill, I have been considering a second 5D2 but now will probably go for the 7D sometime in the next few months. (because it's cheaper)

Voting with the ol wallet.

Avey


My company was in the process of planning to purchase two 5D Mark IIs, but now we will most likely consider going another route entirely. If Canon does not offer support and continued improvements on their equipment, then we may look at some of the Sony video options.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. THREE less 5D2 sales right there, and we aren't even trying. There's no way Canon doesn't realize this.

Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA). That was before the 7D. Now all that pressure has quadrupled with the entire base of high-end Canon customers (read: 5dmkII customers) feeling either vaguely or entirely burned.

If there is a technical reason that 24p/25p on that camera is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so. If there is no reason, Canon should short-circuit this slow-moving PR disaster and announce an update ASAP.

My guess is that they just can't make it work because of hardware limitations (the compression chip has only a couple of modes and you can't add new modes to the camera without literally replacing that chip on the circuit-board).

If there is a technical reason that... is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so.
Generally speaking, Japanese camera / electronics manufacturers tend not to
do that though. They tend to remain tight-lipped about these sorts of things.

Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA).

Indie Pipsqueaks, that might be my new favorite term.

So there are few preproduction bodies out there in right hands (e.g. Phil Bloom). Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?

Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?
There is a chance that my 5D dumping tools will work on the 7D if the CF hardware is sufficiently similar. My hope is that they would be at the same I/O address in memory, so I am guessing that with a few days of hands-on time I'll be able to dump it and start on adding support to Magic Lantern for the 7D. And once that is working, I want to look at how the 7D talks to the DIGIC4 to see if the 5D's chip will respond to the same frame rate settings.

It's interesting that the 7D apparently has a higher data rate than the 5DII. Engineers don't do that for the heck of it. Also, the 4gb limit is hit sooner.

My gut feeling is that there is no way to implement the different FPS on the 5D. If so Canon would totally release this as a firmware update BEFORE announcing the 7D in order to keep the option opened to new purchases of a body that is roughly $1k more. Film making purchases of both these bodies is such a minority anyways that most likely Canon doesn't truly care about this, but, I feel if it just a firmware update they would go ahead with it before the 7D hits the market because new buyers are the target and if you give new buyers two choices one FF and the other cheaper APS, then you can only win as a company.

Conspiracy theories aside, I feel if the software running the 7D exists then it would exist for the 5D if it could be done.

I still have a theory that Canon didn't expect such heavy use (in hours, not units sold) of the 5D for filmmaking that I really feel the hardware isn't going to have a life expectancy we expect it will have and they might be trying to move people over to a body that can survive constant use and abuse as a filmmaking equpiment. I feel this is the reason for the 2 chips in the 7D, it halves the load on the camera, reduces heat most likely, etc. I really think we are going to start seeing burnt out 5D's in the next 7-12 months.

Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !!
You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !!

What I DO believe is that Canon is holding out on the upgrade, hoping that since we've had a taste of video with the 5D Mk II, we'll all run out and buy another 7D to use as our primary video camera if we need 24fps for cinematography or client needs.

I'm sure there's some other marketing scheme they are convinced of, but in this economy, it may well bite them! As soon as Nikon, Sony, etc. are up to speed on the DSLR video options, they (Canon) may find themselves having a lot of 5D and 7D models sitting around while the competitors are selling their products... because they LISTEN to what their money-spending customers are asking for!

Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !!!!!!!!!!

You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !!!
I might be wrong, but I think the hardware in the 5D might be slightly different to that in the PowerShot...

well with canon showing all its glory... i give up lol. red on the way.