I would like to conduct an informal "survey" out here...please let me know your opinion...

Before I bought the XL2 I had a GL2 and from day one I always used Adobe Premiere software (v.6.5) as NLE. I never had the need to even upgrade to a newer version... It always worked great...

After I bought the XL2 a few weeks ago, I thought about trying out a newer editing software, mostly one supporting the 24p feature... My default option was Premiere pro 1.5...

Of course the interface and features are different so I had to work extra hard to even find my way around, and I am still trying to... But in general it has been a very painful experience to get it to work right. I am aware that it might only be me, but I have found the following problem:

- After capturing 24p - 16x9 footage the program gets very slow and the sound out of sync for a few seconds and then the image gets stucked. It becomes impossible to work in the timeline as the captured video wont play smoothly. - By the way my computer is a 3Ghtz Pentium 4 media center pc 512MB RAM and 200GB HD-

Again, I dont know if i am doing something wrong (i might) but so much trouble made me come to the internet and try to find our more...

Then I found out at adobe's site (third party hardware compatibility section) that premiere pro 1.5 offers only CONDITIONAL SUPPORT for the Canon XL2....!

Then reading at other threads on the subject at this site, I noticed how many people mostly mentions Vegas 5 and
Apple's Final Cut Pro and very few mention premiere!

So the question I would like to ask to as many of you out there as possible is:

WHAT NLE SOFTWARE ARE YOU CURRENTLY USING WITH YOUR XL2 TO WORK SMOOTHLY EVEN WHEN THE FOOTAGE WAS SHOT AT 24P and 16x9?

Thanks a lot for your feedback!!!!

I use Vegas 5 with the DVX and its anamorphic adapter, in 24P mode. Works flawlessly. Should do the same with the XL2.

Why do people prefer Vegas over the other NLEs?

Because it's more powerful and easier/faster to use. Oh, and it cost much less, too! But it's one of those things you have to try to understand. In fact, you can download a full demo version from Sony's website:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/products/showproduct.asp?PID=914

Vegas 5.0 works perfectly with the XL2, as if they were made for one another!

Jay

Jay:

Thanks for the link. I already downloaded the demo and am checking it out.

Is there any tutorial, guide or online resource you would recommend me to understand how it works? At first sight it looks upsidedown but that is because I am so used to the premiere interface...

Thanks again

Vegas seems like the choice if you are already working on a PC. Avid DV express pro is available for PC and Mac (an excellent scaled down piece of Avid software) and Final Cut Pro (Mac Only). These are most definitely the 3 most powerful pieces of "affordable" software out there.

I've used Avid Xpress DV with the XL2 with no problems whatsoever - the camera was detected straight away and the material was captured flawlessly.

Robin

<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos Porras : Jay:

Is there any tutorial, guide or online resource you would recommend me to understand how it works? At first sight it looks upsidedown but that is because I am so used to the premiere interface... -->>>

Carlos, don't look at it like Premiere, that will only confuse you. Most Vegas users who have "switched" say once they "forget" about the system they were using, Vegas proves to to be far more "user-friendly."

You have two options:

Go to the Vegas User's forum at http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowTopics.asp?ForumID=4 This forum is second to none! You can also go to the Vegas forum here at DVi at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=54

And/or download the .pdf Users' Manual at http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/download/default.asp

Jay

Hi Carlos,

Do I understand that you're actually using PPro 1.5 now and having troubles, or are you capturing to Premiere 6.x and considering which software to buy/upgrade to?

I have an XL2 and although Adobe hasn't yet released specific PPro 1.5 settings for it, I had no difficulty at all with 24p test captures, 24p timeline editing, or exporting to 24p WMV and MPG. I just used the Panasonic 24p capture pre-sets...not even sure that was necesary, but that's what I did. As far as using PPro 1.5 itself, I have found it to be worlds better than the earlier versions. The only bug I've personally run into (and for all I know it may be a problem specific to my system) is that "Export to DVD" locks up part way through the burn. So I use Encore to burn my DVDs.

I believe I've read that 24p 2:3 inherently takes more processing power when editing in a 29.97 timeline, as compared to either using 2:3:3:2 in a 24p timeline because it needs to be re-encoded to get the right fields together. I'm new to 24p so a have a lot to learn myself, but here's a thread that might help a little:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32239&perpage=15&highlight=2332&pagenumber=2

Older versions of Premiere don't do pull up/down of 24p, so if you used Premiere 6.x for capture, it doesn't surprise me that 24p footage might be slow or jerky in the timeline. I can't really remember for sure, but I think I may have seen some preview window slowing of 2:3 in PPro 1.5 even on my 3GHz, 2GB-DDR, multi-hard drive system but if so, it wasn't enough to interfere with my editing. I'd recommend playing around with various 2:3 and 2:3:3:2 clips in 24p and 29.92 timelines to see if you like it better than Premiere 6.x.

Also, Adobe products are generally considered to be more demanding of the hardware than their competitors. 512MB of RAM is on the low side for Adobe stuff. I'd recommend an upgrade to at least a GB of RAM and 24p-aware software of your choice. And regardless of which software you pick, getting a second fast hard drive for capturing and temp files will help performance.

I don't know if Vegas is running competitive upgrade offers, but if not, it may be a little costy to make the move. That said, I've never used Vegas but certainly wouldn't want to dissuade you at all from giving it a try if you wish; obviously lots of people like it.

But if money is less of an issue....here are some free bonus comments: If you anticipate just doing straightforward edits, it probably doesn't matter too much which software package you use. But, IMHO, if you'll be wanting really complex effects, the Adobe Video Collection Pro is EXPENSIVE but worth it. I make no bones about my being merely a hobbyist, yet I probably spend more time in After Effects and Audition than I do in PPro -- well worth having them. Since I haven't used Vegas, I really can't compare, but it is hard for me to imagine that it can match the sophisticated cloning, motion tracking, and plethora of other features that the whole (expensive) Collection and bundled 3rd party add-ins offer. Just considering PPro 1.5 vs Vegas to keep it a "fair fight" I think it is probably a personal preference call...these are two big competitors for the same market and neither is likely to significantly outpace the other for long. If one does something new and great, the other will match or leapfrog it in short order.

But if you have PPro 1.5 already, a little more RAM and finding the optimum 24p settings MAY be all that you need for now.

Thank you very much Pete for your thoughts. You might be right in that my computer resources might be a little low for pp1.5. However it is amazing how after installing the demo version of vegas, the same footage that could not be played back on premiere was read smoothly by vegas! The only trouble at this point is to get to understand the interface and resources fast enough... but I think I am going to give it a try. At this point that is the least expensive way to go. Thanks again for giving me your opinion.

JAY: THANKS A LOT FOR THE LINKS PROVIDED!!! VERY HELPFUL!

Hey guys, what about using Premiere with Matrox hardware? Matrox makes Premiere run much smoother. Any ideas on that? Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by David Clark : Hey guys, what about using Premiere with Matrox hardware? Matrox makes Premiere run much smoother. Any ideas on that? Thanks -->>>

Negative. Matrox does not support 24P at all. Therefore if you use the Matrox card you are forced to work in 60i video only.

Bummer.

Carlos: check out the following thread in our Vegas forum:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20830

It has a quick reference PDF with all things to get off to a quick
start (including some things you will wonder, like how to splice
a clip in two), links to sites with tutorials and things like that and
some other small tips in the thread itself.

Thanks a lot Rob!

"Negative. Matrox does not support 24P at all. Therefore if you use the Matrox card you are forced to work in 60i video only"

I just found this on the Matrox site: http://www.matrox.com/video/products/axio/key_features.cfm

it be cool to tryout (i use PP1.5)

Jed Burdick
www.TheXL2.com

no love for FCP???

FCP is great but I still prefer Avid (Adrenalin or better)

I have a great amount of love for Final Cut Pro. Of course it requires that you run a Macintosh and for many people who already own PCs they can't afford to shell out another $2-3k for another computer, and then spend, on top of that another $1k for FCP HD. Fair enough.

But all things being equal (assuming you have yet to buy a computer) Final Cut Pro is perhaps the most powerful and easy to use NLE for under $1000. FCP is quickly becoming the standard at many film schools including NYU and UCLA. If you ask film students whether they prefer to edit on FCP or an Avid system, a great majority say they prefer FCP because of its power and ease of use. In fact I have yet to run into a student that says they prefer Avid for any other reason except for resume stuffing. More and more movies are using FCP, including Soderberg's Full Frontal, and Merton's Cold Mountain. A great number TV shows use FCP, including Scrubs, and FCP appears to be very poppular on the reality TV show front;, MTV uses FCP religiously, and IFC used FCP on one of its reality TV shows.

Undoubltedly many people like the Avid system. Avid has been around much longer than FCP and has a near monopoly among professional production companies (although that is quickly changing). But people who like the Avid system, like it because they know it. They're used to it. Theyv'e alwyas used it. But people who like FCP, like it because it is more flexable, easier to use, and tremendously powerful.

As for Vegas, I have no real experience one way or another on that NLE. Vegas has been getting some very good reviews. But I'm not aware of any movies or TV shows being cut on it. At least not yet. And I do not believe that Vegas is part of the curriculum at Film Schools. Perhaps that matters to you perhaps not. Your call.

Douglas

I just read another FCP success story on the 2Pop website found here. http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/2-pop/article_10905.shtml

This is about a film called Primer that won the Grand Jury prize at Sundance this year. This is what the article has to say about when producer/director, Shane Carruth, tried to edit his film for the first time:

Not all of Carruth's desktop shortcuts worked so smoothly. After having the film transferred to Mini DV, the director attempted to edit the entire film on his PC using Adobe Premiere. "It was really naïve on my part to try that. It was terrible. I didn't know your system isn't supposed to crash every 10 minutes," he says. "I had the timecode burned in, thinking that I would be able to go to an edit decision list when we needed to go back to the negative. Premiere is supposed to have that capability, but when you try to use that feature, it manages to mess up the math just enough to make the data unusable."

Fortunately, Sundance came to the rescue. "The day after I found out Primer was going to play at Sundance, I was on a plane to California to get a 35mm blow up done." All of Carruth's footage was scanned at 1920x1080 HD resolution by Hollywood-based MatchFrame Intermediate, which created a digital intermediate from which an edit was conformed using Final Cut Pro. "Because of the problem with Premiere, I had to hand-write where each cut was-and there were about 1,000 cuts-and then input them into a Final Cut Pro system online. Only then was I able to see what Final Cut Pro was capable of, and I realized what a moron I'd been for the last three years!"

Frankly, if you are cutting documentaries and features, FCP pales in comparison to avid. The media management tools are incredibly poor for handling vast ammounts of footage.

If the best argument for Avid is that it has better Media Management, then Avid has indeed conceded the vast landscape of editing features (ease of use, flexibility, effects, cost etc.) to its competition.

Douglas

Avid Xpress Pro thats it. But only the Windows Version. Mac version is to buggy.

For Mac I think FCP is the deal

I worked with both


Thomas

Ease of management is incredibly important. You can't do much if you can't find the footage you need when you need it.
Ask the people who cut features why they don't switch, and that will be high on the list.

Sure, "more and more" films are cut on FCP every day. I'l wager more small indy shops use FCP than AVID.

The recent review of FCP paid it high compliments for becoming "More Avid Like".

Ease of use... FCP finally got around to jkl trimming, an old avid feature that was pioneered by Avid Newscutter.

"Flexibility" - Hmmm, Avid runs on PC and MAC, that's awfully flexible to me. You can use it on either platform. EDL transfer's straight to high end suites. Most FCP editors complain about how hard it is to finish their features on the AVID (Often necessary...)

COST - I think both suites are running at just under a grand right now. Different deals are possible... but the cost is comparable. Perhaps better when you break out the cost of the Boris suite that is included in Avid.

EFFECTS- Both use third party suites. Boris and After Effects are common to both... so thats a wash.

But the vast majority of features and tv series, over 90 percent are still cut on AVIDS.

I've used both. I've watched systems with FCP crash and lockup on supposedly stable macs. I've seen the spinning beach ball of death more times than I care for.

All systems crash, all nle's have flaws, all guns are loaded and all dogs bite. Good to keep that in mind.