<<<-- Originally posted by Anthony Milic : Now, in terms of the image quality of those featured areas; It's all pretty poor is it not? If not unusable (unless artistically, which is a whole different ball game) or did you take those shots as an example of extreme low light capabilities? -->>>

I can't use all of this footage, but will indeed use a significant amount. I think the grainy-ness (is that a word? ;-) will fit what we're trying to do. And it will end up as part of a montage. This is also "artsy" stuff that's being used in an opera to show what the characters are remembering and fantasizing; it isn't being shown by itself as a movie. But this is all a big experiment for me; we'll see how it looks on the big screen in a couple weeks...

Actually I didn't "blacken" any areas, if anything I brightened them to bring out detail like the night sky, and this does unfortunately serve to bring out the noise even more. But I thought they would be of interest since it shows what the camera can do in what I consider a very low light situation.

Looks like you answered you own question, but yes these are actually de-interlaced 60i video frames.

Appreciate the help.

Anthony

I'm getting ready to add a new camera and I'm stuck between the GL2 and PDX10. Not to rehash the numerous other posts, I would just like to know if the PDX10 low light issues would cause noticeable problems in an office environment without a additional lighting. Or are the differences in the low light capabilities only evident in dimly lit places, i.e. nightclubs.

thanks,
Kirk

My recollection is that the pdx does an admirable job in most lighting conditions. While it may not be a GL2 or PD150, it seemed to fail about the same time my eyes failed me in the dark. I recall it worked quite well at the office, at home and outdoors producing quite good exposure and color.

The only drawbacks to the camera are the balance (leans left and forward when handheld) and the probabilty of vertical smear in high contrast and point-light situations.

The PDX10 does great on a tripod or monopod. I recently shot in a classroom setting, similar in lighting to an office. Noise really wasn't an issue, but I underexposed slightly. Noise is most obvious in distant wide shots, and much of my pdx10 work in this shoot was on a monopod, traversing the general area to grab medium and close ups, as well as some distant wides. No problem.

I am going to get a pdx10 and I want to film while i snowboard, I have learned it is comfortable to have a handle on the top like the xl1 or pd1-50 has. Is there any company that makes one? Thanks guys!
James


(i just realized i put this in the wrong catagory. It woun't let me delete it for some reason.) sorry!

Hello PDX users,

quick question: I've owned a Canon XL1S, & GL2 as well as the Pan DVX100- all excellent cameras but none shoot native 16:9. I'd like to purchase the PDX10 (b/c of the 16:9) but keep hearing issues of low light incapabilities. I primarily shoot nature and for the most part shoot under mixed lighting conditions (whatever enviornement the animal is in)......my question is: can the PDX10 shoot under lowish light into somewhat dark areas of say, "tree branches"? I have uploaded a very small 1.6mb .mov file that shows just the type of lighting i find myself shooting under....I wouldn't call it dark, but somewhat overcast.....check out the clip here-

http://stevenunez.com/hostedimages/rtwpigeons.mov

- I'd appreciate opinions on wether you guys think the PDX would be suitable for this range of light shooting?

The clip is of a redtail hawk eating a NYC pigeon under overcast conditions (just after rain) and into the branches a bit....hope it doesn't gross you guys out too much!
Not sure which camera shot this footage but likely the GL2.

Personally I don't think you'll have any problems whatsoever with this sort of condition. Although the PDX-10 is a couple stops slower than the VX-2000, it can still work in very dim places. And footage shot at f1.6 +18 db is still generally very clean.

Here are some pretty extreme examples

Shot at sunset: http://www.greenmist.com/trovatore/film/20030831

It was REALLY dark in this one, shot at 1/30 sec well after sunset: http://www.greenmist.com/trovatore/film/20030812/08

Just the light of a campfire with a flashlight providing a little accent:
http://www.greenmist.com/trovatore/film/20030909/ferrando/04
http://www.greenmist.com/trovatore/film/20030909/azucena/04

There is plenty of noise apparent in these shots, and I only offer them as proof that the PDX-10 can capture images in really dark places. Conditions such as you describe (dark areas of tree branches) really shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Boyd,

thanks for the response. I like the "aura" the PDX gave the characters you shot...I know it's noise but it gives the video a nice quality for the setting you setup.

I have yet to get to B&H to try out the PDX10 personally- they have them setup on a small kiosk with live feeds out to monitors with a decently lit "model railroad" setup to pan around with and check out the video quality 1sthand......I got to get to B&H...again thanks for the response.

If anyone cares to add comments- I'm all eyes!

Well I've bitten the bullet and have purchased the PDX10.

....First impression is of extreme high build quality- feels very much like a professional camera should- very sturdy and robust.

I tested it's low light shooting as this seems to be the camera's "weak" spot- but am finding it quite useable and will likely suit my subject matter very well. I did notice some grain but nowhere near as bad as I had imagined- with just average decent lighting, the camera does fine. The 16:9 mode is absolute killer and the 3.5" screen is excellent...menu's are very simple to navigate and set...just a superb job by Sony (and I'm not a big Sony fan!!)

The big test will be when I add a tele lens- if there's image degradation it will be made apparent on a large Tv set.....stay tuned on that one!!!

Anyone thinking of getting a PDX10 but is worried about it's low light performance should see if they could "demo" a unit at a local store- you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well it works....I'd say it's a tad bit grainer than a GL2 at similar light levels....but in no way is it horrible.

I definitely like this PDX10 better than my GL2 and plan on shooting allot of video.....I'll move onto HDV when FCP can edit it natively....and even then I may hold onto this camera- it's "that" sweet.

Happy PDX10 owner! Let the games begin!

Wonderful Steve, congratulations on your PDX10 purchase. I'm very interested in your coming experience with a telephoto add on on this cam; I'm wanting to do some closeup insect shooting and have yet to work with an adaptor.

I read the menu carefully ,and according to the menu it seems that we had better use tapes with memory. I am wondering is it just because the tape memory can make certain search easier? I am not sure whether it is OK to use sony premium DV tapes, what is the major difference between sony Excellence Dv tapesand the Premium DV tapes? The Excellence DV tape with 4k memory is very expensive , at BH it is $13, if so I would prefer to buy the mini DVCAM tape... Can anyone tell me what kind of tapes are you using for PDX10 ? Thanks.

I have only used Sony Premium tapes without the chips in my PDX-10. Have shot in both DVCAM and DV SP mode without any problems whatsoever.

I'm sure there are better places to order in quantity, but at CompUSA you can buy 3-packs for just under $20. This is the best price I could find locally; Best Buy was charging over $7, local camera shop wanted over $8. Most places don't seem to carry the Sony DV tapes at all.

After much discussion, research and head scratching I finally made the order to B&H yesterday for my PDX-10! 16:9 native, MPEG to memory stick, included XLR's, smaller pro-look, price and cross compatibilty with my surf/snorkel housing all made me sway away from the VX2000/DVC80/GL2. Overall, I am super excited and look forward to the challenges of getting better with light use/composition and taking full advantage of the 16:9 capabilties which was one of my big selling points. I also made the splurge on a new wide angle lens for skate/snow/surf footage, anybody use the Century Optics 0.3x with their PDX? Let me know, plus if you've got any good newbie info for settings or tricks with the PDX pass those along as well.
Thanks!
Ryan

Congratulations on the purchase Ryan, you're going to have fun learning and exploring. If you read back through this forum you'll find lots of discussion on settings and so forth.

Let us know what you think of the .3x wide lens, that sounds interesting.

I use it as long as year. Overall great outside, isn't so good inside, but acceptable ( needs light ). Great DOF. You will notice a softening of corners a bit ( I mean a BIT ). Resolution of field is down about 25%, nothing unusual for such 0,3 lens. And let me say one more thing - you MUST keep a front element immaculate clean. Due to great DOF every little part of dust may ruin your job at all. Best wishes with your new camera!

<<<-- Originally posted by Dmitriy Volper : you MUST keep a front element immaculate clean -->>>

That is an excellent point Dmitriy. I've gotten rather fanatic about this on the PDX-10 and always carry lens fluid, cleaning tissues, microfiber cloth and a brush. This is even more important when using a WA adaptor or external filters. When I first got the camera I ruined a few nice shots with dirt on the lens and learned this the hard way!

Good points Boyd. I know its difficult to do, but if possible hood that front element. That way even if you have dust on the surface of the glass the 'shade' will make the imperfections far less obvious. Being less obvious the auto focus will be less inclined to vote for that rather than your intended subject, too.

tom.

Seasons Greets

Inspired by the latest Honda Car advert which is screening on TV. I thought I would check out the macro performance of the pdx.

With a subject distance within about 50 mm of the lens and a limited zoom range of 3 clicks from the left the pdx produces some amazing macro video.

Having this limited zoom is great for image magnification and with the right lighting you could even use it as a telecine device stright off the film itself

dust particles the size of pebbles ......... wow

I let somebody borrow the PDX over the weekend, and they misplaced the lens cap (for the smaller lens hood). I have a UV filter, so the lens is still protected, but I like having the lens cap. I haven't been able to find anywhere online to order a replacement. Anybody here have a source?

Michael

Hi Michael
I did some looking around, made a few calls--and came up with this, the Sony Business and Professional Parts number. 1-800-538-7550, menu option 1. The sales guy there quoted a price of $19.95, plus a shipping charge of (get this!) $11.50. The part number is X39525951, if I got that right. You can order it directly from them.

I suppose there are generics that might fit, but I don't know. I have a love/hate thing going on with lens caps--they want to be attached, so they don't get lost, but then they have to be removed (or tucked into the velcro on the strap, or somewhere similar) if they are to stay out of the way. I have more than a few shot-from-the-hip clips with the sound of the dangling lens cap clicking against the cam or tripod...doh!

Good luck finding what you need. That phone number is a good one to have on hand!
Chris

Thanks Chris. I'll keep that number handy. I'm not sure about $30 for a lens cap, though (after shipping)! Wow!

I've got the same love/hate thing. I originally attached some velcro to the side of the hood and the other piece to the cap to prevent the dangling, but it still seemed to get in the way, so I usually keep it detatched, which in this case resulted in a loss, of course.

Thanks again for the info.

Michael

If you pull the string that is attached through the metal loop that binds it together it can be pulled up so only the string is dangeling down and the cap is snuggly against the body of the camcorder.
KennJ

35mm film maybe, nothing smaller. Not even sure about the 35mm film as that is 'half frame' when used for cine. Hold up a 35mm transparency to the front element and go to max macro to see what I mean.

tom.

Happy new 2004

I hope you all have had a great new year celebration.

I, (You all know that i freedive) together with my fiance, spend the chance off the year in the water. Beside beeing an exceptional experience, it was my first winter bath in the northern water, and I can promis you it was just as slipping into a bath tub with ice cubes. If you think that a diving suit helps, well, it doesn't! :-)

Back to Digital Video

I am thinking about low-light, and how to balance the low lux of the PDX 10 with an onboard light. What I am looking for is an onboard light which following characteristics:

It must have a broad or wide light as to avoid spot light feeling.
It must be soft enough not to disturb the people.

I want to use the onboard light at occasions where PDX 10 is not capable to film in the current light situation. I just want it to light up smoothly the scene where the area is at most 5 meters.

Any recommendations (light kit, watt and accessories)?

Lambis

I'll pass on the tub of ice cubes but I'm also interested in what others have to say about the onboard light.

Below is a link of all the on-camera light kits offered by B&H but I have no experience with them. Maybe someone can shed some light on the subject (forgive the pun).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&shs=&ci=4375&sortDrop=ps_asc&bl=&al=&pn=1&shs=&pn=1&ci=4375

Lambis, I think we might have better luck over in the Photon Management forum here on DVinfo.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=41

Thanks Tommy

I will put my question on the Photon Management. I was only thinking that maybe some som use the PDX10 have some tips

Lambis

I had to shoot 2 guitars today so I set up the pdx10 and an Olympus 2100 UZ...frankly I didn’t get the results with the 4+ year old Olympus I wanted and stuck with the one mega pixel Sony stills...for those who may be interested in the still picture capabilities of the pdx done strictly by an amateur, there posted here

www.wiktel.net/dkorb/karvin.jpg

www.wiktel.net/dkorb/gibson.jpg

Heres the settings i used

3 light sources 4@500 watt quarts halogen(shop lights) bounced everywhere...100 watt westinghouse screw in florescent overhead...daylight in front from large window... adjusted the curves in Photoshop, just the white balance and I crushed the blacks a bit, observe the feathers in the corner cause they were white!, shrank the photos to fit in window by about 30 percent
The raw image had more saturation on the pdx10 but more noise than the olympus
sharpness turned all the way down plus one
wb set 1 click + (not sure why)
ae shift factory centered
agc limit off (don’t know what it duz)
manual focus
manual exposure
zebra @ 100 since there were no human subjects
the background is army surplus wool blanket
I’m goinna sell these 2 guitars and buy an Olympus E1 for stills, 14 guitars are 13 to many
And for those professionals here…feel free to post criticism (please)

Hi,

I'm about to get a PDX10. Also will have a "normal" assortment of accessories (lenses, extra batteries, etc...) and am wondering which Pelican is good for me, i.e. what is the smallest size that will fit the camera and the gear?

At this point I may also get a ME-66 shotgun mike, which likely won't fit in a small to medium Pelican, but I can get a separate case for it.

Links to a page where I may buy them are:

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/search.asp?mnf=1663

it works now

Sony puts out the LC-PD100TH, for the PDX10, and the LCH TRV950, for the 950, having the same body that the PD has. I know that places like Safer Seas customizes Pelican cases, though they don't carry the PDX10 itself.

Nice stark black background. There is one area with a hot highlight in the lower left of the guitar but, in one way of looking, that highlight adds to the starkness of the photo.....ok in this one.

Turn down sharpness completely and, with as much lighting as you had, the TRV950 will be essentially noise free almost to its resolution limit. Even one click of sharpening above default is too much if noise is an issue.

Sharpen in Photoshop (unsharp mask for quick outcomes) (or better, MATLAB, using their image processing toolkit with FFT) once the still is captured at zero sharpening on the TRV.

On another website a poster named ccbatson provided me these parameters in pshop unsharp mask.

Amount: 175
Radius: 0.8
Threshold: 1

I think 175 may be too aggressive if you are really sensitive to noise but will work well if you plan to print the image on a printer.

Auto-gain up is the analog gain on the CCD array sensitivity upstream of the A/D conversion. Turning it off ensures the lowest noise outcome.

Great pics and especially to be taken with a digital camcorder.

Here is one I took with my former PDX10.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/74415/pdx10(1).jpg

Thanks for your input Mike…I really don’t want to set up that shot again so I will give the Carvin guitar one more shot in Photoshop…it’s the only editor I can afford. I didn’t even think about the unsharp mask and I believe I may look real hard at the blue channel perhaps soften it up. The noise didn’t concern me as much in the darker Gibson guitar but the Carvin needs some attention…especially after I looked at Tommy’s photo…make me feel better Tom and tell me that was just a lucky shot!!!

The difference between a carpenter with a camera, and a photographer with one, might be likened to the difference between, tossing a bullet…AND SHOOTING ONE!

Btw Tom, I looked at your web site(nicely done) and I’ll bet you love that Panasonic…had there been one available in the states last year I would have opted for the mx5000 version.

Many Europeans who want to order a camcorder from the U.S. or Asia sooner or later face the same problems.
a) Guarantee.
Most shops selling these cameras have a U.S. or 90 days guarantee. You can buy an additional mark guarantee which they claim to be an international guarantee, but what happens when something goes wrong? Do we have to send the camera back to the U.S. or can we leave it to an authorized camera in the country where we are?
There are some shops for example in Hong Kong which exchange domestic warranty card for an international one That’s great!!


b) Payment.
In many European countries, like in Sweden where I happen to be, banc transfer is very inconvenient since the banc administrational fees are extremely high, and you meet a lot of obstacles until your money has reached the receiver. I speak of own experience. So payment by banc card (visa, AmEx etc) is least to say to prefer.

c) Grey market camcorders.
Naturally you will tell me to buy from our sponsors and of cause if the above wasn’t an issue I would. It would be good if there were a list of ”blacklisted” sellers (grey market sellers)
Everyone knows that Sony PDX 10 come with a 2 year silver support warranty (at least in Europe).
(Take a look att: www.creativevideo.co.uk/pdf/sony_silver-support.pdf )
So I’ve asked a company selling the Sony PDX 10 in England if they offer this support.
The answer they gave me was:
We are selling without silver support (not of great help if you read the small print!).
Are they grey market sellers?

One problem that I have: I want to order a camera from the U.S. I’ve got a friend over there who will visit me soon. Now, I would like to order the camcorder, make the payment from my visa card (so that I also will become the registered buyer) and have it delivered to my friend. But I’ve been told that from the B&H that it’s not possible.


Anyway, any reaction on this theme? I hope that our sponsors will help their potential European buyers and simplify the selling/buying.

Regards Lambis

You won't get any real coverage at 5 metres, but the only on-camera lights that won't have subjects squinting -or running from you- in lower light situations will be the lowest wattage ones, like the tiny 3 watt light Sony makes for their Handycams. Model VL3 or somethingthat sounds like that. It runs off the cameras power through the Sony hotshoe, so i Believe your pdx10 will run it.

Optimistically figure on lighting out to 3m, or less if you diffuse it for a wider spread, which will help you avoid the center hotspot.

Using an on-camera soft box will let you use a lot more wattage without blinding people.

Hi all, I'm a DSR390 user and I'm thinking to buy PDX10 like second little camera. My questions: with 390 I use an Anton Bauer light directly connected to the camera, so the light dont need a battery. Do you know if it's possible with the PDX10 too?
And I'd like to know if PDX10 can use the portable hd DU1.
Thanks in advance, Maurizio.

The "hot shoe" on the PDX-10 is used for the XLR adaptor box. The box itself has a shoe mount, but it doesn't provide power. Aside from that, with the little QM-91 as the largest available battery, you probably wouldn't want to power a light from the camera. But read back through this forum for a bit, there was some earlier discussion of camera-mounted lights.

Keep in mind that the PDX-10 is actually a very small camera (it will seem tiny if you're used to a DSR-390). It's quite a bit smaller and lighter than a PD-150 as well.

What do you think you might use the PDX for?

Little productions or second camera in normal work and holydays. I'd like to know if some particular things I use with 390 are possible to use with PDX10 in the same way (light on camera and portable hd DU1). I have an old 1998 XL1 and before to change I want to be sure.
Maurizio.

I think if you approach the PDX10 as a point-and-shoot amateur then the camera gives strikingly good results. But I fear for a man coming from a DSR, and I fear because you may be wanting to see what aperture you're shooting at and may not like the CCD smear and be upset by the three internal NDs that you can't switch off - even in manual.

Read up (here) about this cam. If you're happy for Sony to make the shooting decisions for you then it's indeed a great performing camera, and in 16:9 it's wonderful. Except that you have to be *so* careful about that smear.

tom.

Thanks, Lambis. It's always complicated to buy from outside of your country---I do it all the time!

I currently do weddings with two VX2000s and I'm thinking of getting a PDX-10 as a third camera ... I realize that there is a lux rating difference, but assuming one is shooting in good light, how does footage from the PDX-10 match up with the VX2000 (or PD-150)? Will it require a lot of work in post?

Thanks!

Don't believe that you should have any problems assuming that the PSX is not used in complete darkness (and it is used in 4:3 format)

P

I haven't done a side by side comparison, but, at a glance, the PDX and pd170 look very similar.

Thanks guys!

I am about to purchase a DV camera for some work on documentaries and shorts. For my budget, the PDX10 looks like a great little camera, but I need help in deciding between PDX10, PD100A or PD150. Here are my concerns:

1. Some people say it performs bad in low-light. 7 lux, right? Is it acceptable or simply poor? Would it be okay to use it occasionaly at, let's say indoor rock concerts and for some night exterior shots without extra lighting? What are your experiences?

2. How does it perform with Final Cut Pro 4? Especially the 16:9 footage; does it integrate well?

3. How does it compare to PD100A? The PD100A is supposed to have better low-light performance. True or not? Also, I've heard the PD100A only takes DVCAM tapes and it doesn't have the 16:9 native mode like PDX10. Anyway, could used PD100A be a better/cheaper alternative?

4. Used PD150 is still a few hundred more than PDX10. Is it worth spending that extra money for what most people claim is really good low-light performance? Does PD150 have 16:9 native mode as PDX10?

I would appreciate any input on this, because I will have to decide soon.
Thanks a lot!

Hi Alan! A few bits of opinion for you. I don't feel confident about answering them all:

2. It works just fine with FCP--no problems. The 16X9 looks tremendous.

4. b. PD150's 16X9 is not native. It's got less resolution than the PDX10 in that mode.

A few others around here will help with the rest. Boyd has done a lot with theatrical shooting, so maybe he has an answer on the rock concert thing.

Overall, this is a wonderful camera. For a documentary, its small and unobtrusive, great quality, and great sound capability. I haven't minded the low-light deal, but then I hardly ever shoot in the dark...