I went to the Southwest Communications Expo today (Phoenix) hoping that Sony had added the FX-1 to the "HD Truck Tour".

No such luck. The camera was not there. The sales staff that I initially talked to barely knew the camera existed, but I did have a VERY interesting discussion with a Sony engineer. He was very excited about the Pro version, having recently showed it at the Government Video Expo. He spilled the following, some of which I have not heard anywhere else:

- The pro version is 50i / 60i switchable.
- It has no time delay from the iLink output.
- The iLink output converts HDV to DV. Shoot HD if you want to, you can still post in DV. I don't know if this is live downconvert while shooting, but I'm thinking maybe so.
- He said Vegas "already supports" the camera. I thought there was an update needed first. I didn't ask further.
- The pro camera will use "larger CCDs" than the FX-1. This will provide a wider field of view, shallower depth of field and higher quality than the consumer version. This came as a huge surprise to me, as Sony has typically used identical CCDs in the consumer/pro cams.
- The camera will have TRUE progressive scan, at 25p and 24p (!!!). I was very specific about this point, and asked if the implementation was similar to the Panasonic DVX-100. He said "yes, very similar". The CCDs are timed at 24p, then write the signal using a 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 60i. You will be able to reconstruct full 1080, 24p frames in post.
- Expect the announcement in November, and shipping by late Feb., early March at "about $6000".
- Sony will have a big showing at Sundance in Jan., and will be bringing a digital cinema projector to demonstrate the camera to the indie filmaking community.

I can't wait to see all the goodies that Sony has put into this remarkable machine. I had always hoped this camera would do for indie film and HD what the VX-1000 did for SD video. It looks like that dream is inching closer to reality.

I've heard about "40+" differences between the 2 cams. Could we make a laundry list of "confirmed" features that justify the higher price? I'm already sold - what about you folks?

I hope that is true. However, I am very sceptical.

I knew I had heard them say 25p and 24p at the demo I caught at GV Expo. Thought I was losing my mind. Thanks for confirming this, Scott, although I guess we'll have to wait for it to be "official."

I also hope this is all true - especially the larger CCDs.

The hair is standing up on the back of my neck...that's all I can say right now.

Murph

Holy Crap....

And I just bought a DVX... may have to buy this as well!

I know what you mean! I'm seriously re-thinking my DVC30 plans, even though this is much more than twice the price and I don't even have an HDTV. D'oh!

Ohmigosh, 24p?

Well, considering Sony developed it for CineAlta in the first place, why not?

About time - since Panny brought it to the masses first - and Sony did put true 24p on some 1-chip cam this past summer, no?

If the CCD is better and true 24p, then definitely I'm holding off on FX1 consumer version and will wait for pro Z1 next spring - it will be worth the wait... with XLRs and switchable between 50/60i, all of a sudden $6K is sounding like a deal...

Okay, this is starting to make more sense now - but let's wait for the official news!

I wonder if Sony will wait to officially announce Z1 specs until AFTER FX1 has hit the market to "suck us in" so to speak...?

I figure it will be awhile before PC HDV plugins easily supporting the format will be ready anyway... there will probably be some bugs, etc. that hopefully will be resolved in a few months - so maybe holding off and waiting for Pro version next spring is prudent - should have a sense by then too how much I'll have to upgrade my computer hardware for efficient HDV workflow...

Gosh, more waiting.

Well, looks like I'll have to switch to Tai Chi TWICE a day now...

Ah, but this is EXCITING - must sound crazy, but I think about shooting with this new format every night before I go to sleep - WOW!

So, like if you were about to buy an XL2 and you got wind of this FX1, you're thinking "Okay, I'll wait till Nov. and then decide - I'll see if this HDV stuff is worth it"

but now potentially, many savvy cam buyers will wait it out for pro version, especially if CCD and 24p rumours are true...

so Canon must be going nuts thinking that people are waiting 5-6 months to make some sort of purchase that is not Canon...

Hmmm. Big price reduction in XL2 NOW might convince some people who are eager to shoot sooner rather than later to maybe not wait till next spring for "pro-HDV"????

I'd love to track mini-dv cam sales from now till next spring among prosumers/videographers to see if everyone is going to "wait-and-see."

It will be interesting too to watch for XL2's on ebay... that goes for DVX100's, too, I suppose...

Sony last year sponsored some big stuff at Sundance - I think they in part arranged for Ben Affleck to show up and I think they sponsored Alanis Morrissette's performance night...

I had heard last week from a producer I know who's dealing with Sony that there would be big news on the broadcast horizon for Sundance - it's all starting to add up.

Wow, Sony buying Sonic Foundry last year and now responsible for Vegas NLE on the PC side... Vegas already supports 1080i HDV editing and just needs revised capture utility to get it into the computer... Latest versions since Sony took over are so much better, more refined - I'd take Vegas over Premiere/Avid any time...

Is this some sort of master plan to take over the world?

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat :

I'd love to track mini-dv cam sales from now till next spring among prosumers/videographers to see if everyone is going to "wait-and-see."

-->>>

I really dont think its going to do much to sales, you read a few magazines here in Australia and XL2 is the best thing since sliced bread as recommended by supposed pros here.

Remember not every person in the world sits in the dvinfo forums to listen to the lastest rumours and untill its official the 24p feature will remain just that, a rumour. You dont know if the sony guy got a little confused with the cineframe mode :). But hey it was enough for me to wait till next year ;)

Originally posted by Mark Kubat : - and Sony did put true 24p on some 1-chip cam this past summer, no?No. They put a 24P "simulation" on that cam. No true 24P from Sony on any product under $35,000.If the CCD is better and true 24pI've been wrong several times in the past, but that won't stop me from speaking out again...

There is almost NO chance this is true. I mean, think about it: a larger CCD would require a different focal length lens. We've already seen brochures and mockups of the "pro" version, and it has the same lens.

Also, someone posted a link to an official Sony brochure that shows the pro model -- it talked about XLR's and other features not on the FX1, and there was not a mention of larger CCD's, nor was there any mention of progressive scan.You dont know if the sony guy got a little confused with the cineframe mode :).I think Tre's right, probably confusing it with CineFrame.

Before anyone gets me wrong, let me say that I will be the first guy in America to buy the pro version. I'd love for the rumors to be true, 'cause my money's already going to the cam, and that would just make it a bonus. But I cannot FATHOM how this rumor could be true. It makes no sense, given what we've seen from Sony themselves (on the printed brochure). The lens issue alone invalidates the idea of it having larger CCD's. I guess progressive-scan is a possibility, but if so, that almost definitely means that the hardware would be in the FX1 and they just intentionally crippled it (like the original Intel 486SX processor).

Sure it's fun to talk about, but seriously, there's no way it can be true.

Thanks again Barry, I guess we'll all know more over time.

Well, these recent points raised by Barry seem to temper things a bit...

but I should mention that at the Canadian XL2 launch last month, no less than Canon's Joe Bogascz (Assisant Manager, Product Development, Canon USA - sorry if I don't have his full title correct) speculated privately after the formal presentation that Canon was watching with interest not so much the FX1 but the pro Z1 - "It will be interesting to see what lens they end up putting on their pro version of HDV" - indicating that Canon had some pretty good info that the differences between Sony's two flavours would be significant to justify the price differential.

Hmmm.... Chris, can you get on the fast-track to DSE since he attended the second HVR-Z1 preview at Govt. Expo - maybe he can weigh in on this here and settle this - Chris, you yourself said you thought they said true 24p? Did Spot hear the same?

I think the larger CCD issue is misleading. The lens will resolve 1440 x 1080 using the offset green CCD. By using true 1440 x 1080 CCDs rather than 960 x 1080, the camera would not require new glass.

I think this is also where the "P" argument comes from. We already know the CCD block on the FX1 cannot produce progressive images, otherwise Sony would have included the feature. But if the pro version is in fact using different chips, there is at least the possibility of 24p and 30p.

If true, this goes a long way to justify the $6000 price quoted above, although I remain skeptical as Sony seems to have a deep corporate commitment to interlaced video throughout thier product line. I also remain confident that many functions done in-camera, including "looks," film or not, is best left to post.

After waiting for the XL-2, I can wait a little longer for the Z1. I don't want to, but it seems patience, along with a weaker liver, has come with age.

<< Chris, can you get on the fast-track to DSE >>

I sure can... because I'm having dinner with him tonight!

;-)

The "larger CCD" thing probably refers to a higher pixel count, not a physically larger size? Maybe.

Hearsay is B.S. Before NAB, people kept posting about how "a guy at Canon" told them all about the upcoming HDV XL2 (Called XR2 if I remember) and it was confirmed bla bla bla, and how long have people got confirmation/seen physical "proof" of the Apple PDA or the iPhone?

I don't believe it either. I'd love it, though ;-)

In all fairness Donial there was one single person who posted that XL2 HDV nonsense and it was not on this site. Somebody posted a link to it and we knocked it out of the water fairly quickly. The person who initiated that rumor was anonymous, and their "mysterious Canon source" was never named and it was never confirmed (and I did just about everything to dispell it that I could). In this case however with the Sony HVR-Z1, we have a much more credible source. Much more credible because it's coming directly from our discussion board and not some other site, and the poster has a name and a face and he is not known to B.S. about this stuff. I can confirm at least some of it, from what Sony reps told me directly at GV Expo earlier. So on one hand yes this is all preliminary and subject to changes, corrections and updates; but on the other hand it's nowhere near as awful as that ridiculous XL2 HDV rumor you're referencing. But hey, it's good to be skeptical about all of this stuff until it becomes legitimate!

The larger CCD is possible (and I hope to be true.) The same lens (as the FX1) can throw an image circle big enough to cover the larger sensor. It did mention that the Z1 will provide a wider angle of view (and shallower DOF too), so that makes sense.

HDV, a larger CCD and 24p at $6K – man, that’s one jerk-off camcorder for the low-budget filmmakers. ;)

I really wish that I had asked more specific questions. I feel foolish now, but at the time, I was just trying to stop from swallowing my tongue ;-)

The issue of larger CCDs may be misleading. The Sony guy said "bigger CCDs". I said "so, wider field of view and shallower DOF?" and he agreed. I don't know if the CCDs are physically larger, or if by saying "bigger" he meant higher resolution. I still wonder why Sony would break from the VX-2100/PD-170 tradition. Maybe it's because adding the 24p option required different CCDs that just happened to work out to be slightly larger. Who knows?

November can't come quick enough.

if the new pro version has 24P feature and cine gamma control,
I will sell my car to buy one right away.

It just doesn't make sense that the pro version of the camera would cost so much more for what seems to be a limited amount of extra functionality...I definitely believe there is something that we don't know yet that will justify that price...whether it be 24P or better CCDs remains to be seen, but I definitely think we will find out that the huge price increase is there for a reason...

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of 24p HDV.

This will be Jesus' camera if it's true. I'm so glad I didn't jump on the XL2 - Canon must be beside themselves over this.

"I definitely believe there is something that we don't know yet that will justify that price...whether it be 24P or better CCDs remains to be seen, but I definitely think we will find out that the huge price increase is there for a reason..."

Hopefully it will be an interchangeable lens... Or come with Charles Pappert, so that those shots are nice and fluid ;)

Look at it this way. If anyone doesn't like the higher cost of the pro version, there are lots of options still available. Geez, people acting like this is something important (okay, just kidding, stop throwing things....).
Most people I know have only seen crappy HD in a bargain retail store and are not impressed.

I'm one of those people Joe... I like this cam, for most of its features- except the HD. And judging by the list of features on the pro model I like it even more.

if the pro version has progressive, then new chips would be in order, maybe thats what the guy meant, not bigger size but as chris said better resolution

as for the progressive 24p, let me say this, if sony won't do it i know panasonic will, just that pana gonna record to disc versus tape (a 51 statement, but so is this entire thread)

so maybe sony is just gonna say lets get it right from the start, or maybe this is a bogus thread

it reminds me when the rumours of a dvx100a were out, most folks said that there was no room on the camera for extra user buttons and that panasonic would not make changes to body only a year after it came out...well we know what happened there, this has tought me that anything goes these days, except with canon as they are pretty predictable, a little...

the larger pixel count? Maybe thats refering to the 'safe' area of the pro version? Maybe finally have something similar to what film cameras get. Be very nice to see whats coming.

"Maybe it's because adding the 24p option required different CCDs that just happened to work out to be slightly larger. Who knows?"

So, Scott, you remain steadfast on the part of your conversation re: 24p with the said Sony tech (he wasn't the HD Truck tour driver, was he? were there beers involved?)

Can you clarify/elaborate re: 24p conversation a bit more - you don't think he mixed up 2:3:2:3 with 2:3:3:2 (cineframe 24) - you DO seem pretty certain about it being the "real-deal" on the Z1.

thanks!

Mark, I can only tell you what I remember. I don't remember the pulldown sequence, but he said it was different than the FX-1. He talked about true 24p and true 25p at full resolution. He talked about the camera in the context of independent filmmaking.

Like I said in the original post, the sales guys at the front of the truck might have well been truck drivers, as much as they knew about this camera. I always seem to weasel my way past the sales flacks and spokesmodels by barraging them with technical questions until their eyes glaze over. Then I finally talk to the guy whose business card has "engineer" in the title.

I think this is also where the "P" argument comes from. We already know the CCD block on the FX1 cannot produce progressive images, otherwise Sony would have included the feature. But if the pro version is in fact using different chips, there is at least the possibility of 24p and 30p.

If true, this goes a long way to justify the $6000 price quoted above,
Okay, let's think about this for a second. One way to look at it is to say "it's the same camera, they just developed this new high-def CCD for the FX1, etc... why would it be different for the HVR?"

But the other way to look at it is that there's a $3,000 price difference -- there better be something different other than just a couple of XLR adapters!

The presence of the switchable 50i/60i CCD raises some tantalizing prospects... I mean, if they had to design a new CCD from the ground up for the FX1, might they not also have designed TWO new CCD's, and actually use a different one in the HVR?

There's another camera that I can think of that has switchable 50i/60i... it's called the CineAlta, and it's a Sony, and it also has 24P and 25P and 30P, in addition to 50i and 60i. Sony knows how to do it. (of course, the CineAlta is $100,000 and the HVR is $6,000)... Would they do it for this camera?

Maybe.

I still can't fathom how the camera could be using a different-sized CCD... but maybe there could be something to this 24P/25P after all.

But like the man said, there better be something good in there to justify the price jump!

(then again, think about the Mini35, at $10,000, and the Pro35, at $30,000... what's the difference? Basically the lens connector, plus "pro's are used to paying more for their gear", right?)

Let's keep hoping for Sony to deliver the progressive goods...

I dont see why 24P seems so unreasonable, i mean look at it from Sony's eyes:

at the end of the day its a ~1/3" progressive scan camera (big deal so is DVX and XL2).


here hoping i'm right :)

Were you guys able to compare notes? Also, pre-production models of FX1 are now circulating around US for journalist types to preview - will you guys be getting one to evaluate soon?

Did DSE remember anything about "true 24p?"

This was posted on dvxuser.com, but I thought I'd post it here since it is relevant to this discussion:


"Like I said in my other post. I used a demo of the pro version of the Sony's HDV camera "Z1" or "PD190" (or whatever unofficial name you choose) last week. It does not have a true 24p function per se, BUT it does have a feature that is called "filmlook", a simulated 3:2 pulldown effect, that in 1080i looks every bit as "filmic" as the DVX's 24p feature.

The picture quality is quite impressive even when played back on a large HD screen. It is not indicative of the compression that this format has. Loads of detail in the blacks and a significantly greater dynamic grey scale range than the DVX. While its not in the same ballpark as a Varicam or Sony's HDCam, it comes long way from standard DV. The lens seems much sharper than the PD 170. Oh yes, it HAS a switchable recording function. This camera records in SD DV format too, as well as HDV. The switch is located right next to the record thumbswitch

They have added the XLR connectors to the pro version in approximately the same place as the DVX has them. The manual iris wheel is much improved. The 16:9 LCD screen is quite good. The overall metal construction of this camera seems like it will be much more durable than the DVX. Much less of a "plastic" feel.

I know some people here that probably haven't even touched this camera yet will strongly disagree, but overall, if it were available now, I would have bought this pro version of the FX1 vs the DVX100A. These are just MY subjective impressions after having actually shot with the camera. "

Wouldn't larger CCDs make sense if Sony wanted to add 24p/30p and keep the same low light performance?

OK.. how does 1080p/24 fit in to the HDV specs?

The Pro Version will have "720p (25/30p)" and not "1080i 24p"I read thet in a profession Magazine here in Italy,
the font of that article is a Sony Member.

Best regards


Gabriele

720p is a big departure from Sony's HDV stance up until now, no? Gabriele, can you tell us what else the magazine says about the cam? Does it read like some sort of official preview type thing or more like a speculative, could-be-like-this-kind-of-camera type of article?

Screw copyright - I live in Canada and our Supreme Court got it right with the Music Download issue - we should host a scan of said article here and give credit where it's due - this is a matter of International Security and Human-kind Well-Being.

(Folks, I am trying to be funny with above paragraph - please do not take seriously - please take with grain of salt, read it sitting down etc.)

Okay, Gabriele, can you just re-read the article and tell us your interpretation of the WHOLE THING?

Er, can you translate article into English and read out loud and save into your computer as an mp3?

<<<-- Originally posted by Gabriele Turchi : The Pro Version will have "720p (25/30p)" and not "1080i 24p"I read thet in a profession Magazine here in Italy,
the font of that article is a Sony Member.

Best regards


Gabriele -->>>

So this "PRO version" is going to have 1080i 60/25 AND 720p 60/25 ?? AND "inside" sources say true 24P ?? Dream on.

Well, yes, it will most likely have Cineframe 24. Beyond that, we'll find out when it's released.

<<<-- So this "PRO version" is going to have 1080i 60/25 AND 720p 60/25 ?? AND "inside" sources say true 24P ?? Dream on. -->>>

More like 1080i 60/50......

This is why Canon shuts up about products until they're ready to be released - at least then you know all rumors are BS.

This article is a Test about FX1,and it say:

..............this FX1 can shot in 1080i 50fps mode only...........the sony member as sayed that the Pro Model will have a switchable 50i/60i 1080 mode and 720p 25/30/50/60 mode!

There is a confermation about in that brochure:


http://www.sonybiz.net/cgi-bin/bvisapi.dll/includes/popupURL.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0368592844.1098980540@@@@&BV_EngineID=cadclkdffkggbemgcfkmcfjfdhl.0&surl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.sonybiz.net%2fimages%2feditorial%2fE%2fHDV_CAMCORDER0904E.pdf


you can see that in the picture there are all of kind of specif of HDV and that brochure is not a general brochure......... but display the features of the Pro model...........



Best regards


Gabriele

The brochure simply lists the various specifications of the HDV format. It clearly states at the top right "1080i HDV" and under the features list of the camcorder "1/3" 1080i HD 3CCDs (16:9)"

Nowhere does it state the camera is switchable between the formats. It could be possible the VTR listed or maybe the camcorder can playback those formats. But clearly the camcorder records 1080i.

Exactly. Sony's cheapest HDCAM camera is interlace only too. So I don't know why people think that the new pro version of the FX1 would be progressive.

I don't think there's been any credible confirmation about any of the progressive-scan speculation.

If people are getting the idea the pro version will be progressive-scan from this brochure, I think that's a very mistaken assumption. The brochure is talking about the entire HDV format, and the deck advertised in the brochure will be able to play back all of those formats. But that doesn't mean the camera will be able to shoot 720p or any type of progressive scan.

One possibility is that fx1 already has progressive ccd's, they are just disabled for working in that mode.
It makes no sense that Sony would develop diffrent ccd models for each camera model. Would be way too expensive.
Another thing about "better resolution".
Sony's Japanise site tells that z1 has 1070000 pixel ccd's and there would be no reason for more pixels, because hdv is 4:2:0 format, isn't it?
So with green ccd's pixel shift you can easily get 1440x1080 for luma and 720x540 for chroma components.

I may be wrong, but I understand 4:2:0 works on two fields to give the chroma (red difference & blue difference) sample (compressed),

so (something like this)...

field 1 = Y sampled full (4), Ycr at every other pixel (2), Ycb no sample recorded (0)

field 2 = Y sampled full (4), Ycb no sample recorded (0), Ycb at every other pixel (2)

This makes the chroma sampling more like 8:2:2 (relatively speaking?!) but means the chroma compression is temporal (across two fields) unlike the more straightforward 4:1:1 of NTSC.

I would think the spatial detail is improved (vs.4:1:1) on stills but drops on motion. Reds and Blues will 'lag'/'precede' the luma motion.

I don't know of an easy way of extracting Ycr and Ybr 720x540 chroma information as it swaps from field to field... any ideas ?
(please correct any of the above if necessary - any experts out there ?)

<< One possibility is that fx1 already has progressive ccd's, they are just disabled for working in that mode. >>

Actually no, this is not the case at all... both the FX1 and Z1U have identical CCD blocks, and they are NOT progressive scan... just wanted to clear this up now before it goes any further.

With interlaced picture each field is sampled separately, so chroma component pixel is same in lines 1 and 3, eg.
With quick googling I found this:

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidbug2.htm

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << One possibility is that fx1 already has progressive ccd's, they are just disabled for working in that mode. >>

Actually no, this is not the case at all... both the FX1 and Z1U have identical CCD blocks, and they are NOT progressive scan... just wanted to clear this up now before it goes any further. -->>>

How can you be so sure?
Do you have specs for that ccd?

Anyway, this is getting little funny; EBU announced their recommendations for hdtv in Europe last month and it is that all hdtv in Europe should be progressive. This makes sense, because there are no interlaced displays after couple of years.

Now sony offers a standard (1080i50) that nobody benefits...

With new chips there should not be any noticable price diffrence with interlaced and progressive.

Do they really think that hdcam buyer would buy hdv if it had progressive picture?