Anyone here had the old XL1 and now has the new XL1S?

Are you seeing what I am seeing? The new XL1S Looks like bad when it goes in +12db, Compared to the old XL1. What the did Canon do to the chips in this XL1S. Now I know its not the camera I have because it’s the seconded one sent to me.

Let me explain, the new XL1S when in the +12db the video noise looks like grap compared to the old XL1 and the GL1. I have been at this for 5 hours making test over and over and the GL1's video looks a hell a lot better in +12db than the XL1S. Canon really screwed us over with this dam XL1s. My weddings look like junk in the reception where the old xl1 looked great shooting in +12db.

I am upset for what I when though to sell me old great taking video cam to this XL1s.

Have you seen this with the new XL1s or are you just saying to your self that Na its just all in my head.

Any comments?

Mark

I've shot with both, and to my eye the 12db gain on the XL1S is cleaner than the XL1. I think 18db gain on the XL1S appears equivalent to 12db on the XL1.

Chris, I well show you some frams with the XL1s And GL1.

I will post them in a few.
Mark

Mark I want to see those frames too! I find this to be very interesting.


Michael pappas


<<<-- Originally posted by RockFord : Chris, I well show you some frams with the XL1s And GL1.

I will post them in a few.
Mark -->>>

Frames are up.

http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/xl1-test.htm

is that between the xl1s and the gl or xl1?...if its the gl they use diff chips

Hmmm. Noise does not show up well in the .jpg files, except perhaps in the larger file size of the XL1s shots, but htat may just reflect the lowere detail available in the darker GL1 shots. The XL1s also appears to be a stop or so brighter.

A better comparison could be made if you stop down the XL1s lens so the images have about the same brightness at the same gain and shutter speed.

The XL1s shots are brighter. It might be because you don't see the same detail with the GL1 shots that you do with the XL1s. But it seems to bring out slightly more detail. Look at the objects or photographs in the room. On the GL1 it's a lot less details coming through so it appears fuzzy. Because of the extra detail the XL1s seems slightly more jagged. Personally you can fuzz it up in After Effects if you like that better but it's nice to have the extra details. Otherwise with these pictures I'm completely missing what you are trying to point out. Anyone else?

Mark, XL1S at 12db has a much brighter picture than XL1. It has a bit more noise at higher sharpness level, but if you bring the gain down so the picture is comparable in brightness to XL1 and also do not crank the sharpness up to make it the same as old XL1, I bet you will not see any more noise than the old one.
Just try to compare apples and apples.
Alex

Thanks all for your help. I jumped the gun on this one. You are all right that the xl1s is much brighter so it's showing the noise more than the old xl1.
So I will lower the video setup in the menu to help on the noise. To bad I have to shoot +12db in the reception cuz at +6db the video looks great but is to dark. The only time I see the noise, when the reception has low light on the background. That’s when you really see it. +12db in the church looks GREAT! It's the dark backgrounds that show the noise.

Are there any other things I should know to make better shooting?

Thank you all
Mark

I would suggest you try the Aperture priority setting, with Auto gain. This way when the picture is really dark, the auto gain will go up to 12db - it does not go above 12db in auto - but as soon as the camera sees a bit brighter area, it will reduce the gain real fast, and will give you cleaner image.
Alex

Yea but in the reception the Aperture priority always stays at 1.6 cuz its so dark in the audo mode. pretty much the settigs stay at f 1.6 at 60th sec. the only thing that changes is the gain from +12 to 0db at times.

Mark

A thought, you might try play with gamma and perhaps some other settings in post to brighten all but the deep shadows where the noise would be most apparent.

My XL1s is my first digital camcorder and I love it. I usually use it and my L2 for medical imaging but I tried it to record a lunar occultation the other night and the results were fantastic! I used the 30 db gain setting and was able to record the extinction of a mag 5 star on the dark limb of the moon. I shot simultaneously with my L2 using a 250 mm reflex lens and while the image was acceptable the Xl1s provided a nearly noise free image with good brightness and resolution of the lunar limb and the star.

It is a great camera.

Chuck Ivie

Hey everyone,

I've been looking at the pictures Rockford provided
on the website (thanks!).... and am a bit dissapointed...
I wanted to buy a canon but this severly throws me
off... why am I seeing digital jaggies all over the place?
The noise isn't bothering me that much, cause I plan
to shoot with much light anyway... Those jaggies and
"step" patterns make me uneasy a lot! Why are they
there? Someone help a confused person? Thanks!

Rob,
the jaggies you are seeing are compression artifacts. JPEG is a lossy format and to put an image of that size on the web it requires quite a bit of compression. I'd say they are 30 quality which is why they look blocky. Don't put off your decision to buy an XL1 on the strength of JPEG images, they are not a true indication of the quality of the XL1/GL1 image quality.

Afterburner,

I know about jpeg compression (and compression block... jpeg/mpeg etc.)...
what i'm referring too are the jaggies around edges and
non horizontal/vertical lines.... don't know how to explain
this well in english... (not my native language).... it looks
like those diagonal lines have "Steps" in them... this has
nothing todo with jpeg compression as far as i know... if
it is something that is wrong i'm thinking more of:

- interlace field reversal
- bad de-interlacing

what you think?

Thanks for your response!

Hi....

I'm fairly new to this forum, but, I've been doing DV since it was first introduced. I'm not sure what "jaggies" you're referring to since these photos look pretty smooth. DV has a fundamental problem with interlaced/de-interlaced video format. To properly view DV on a computer screen, it's gotta be de-interlaced. Now, this may seem like a trivial problem, but, most commercially available software can't de-interlace properly. It's not sufficient to just swap the field order, 'cuz something weird is going on in the DVcodec. Anyway, for more info, visit this site:
http://people.freenet.de/codecpage/

Sorry for a somewhat misleading post. The problem is more of a swapping of the field order by the software CODEC than it is an artifact of interlacing. I've been able to eliminate this jagged effect by running my captured video thru VirtualDub and applying a deinterlacing filter that does a phase shift and field reversal.
For more info you can visit: http://people.freenet.de/codecpage/

Were the jaggies cause by field doubling to grab aa full frame, which is not needed for a still subject? Applying a de-interlace filter cuts the jaggies about in half!

No matter how you slice it, it is a 720x480 image, which will have jaggies when enlarged without additional smothing/processing processing.

I have a few pictures posted on my site you could look at. Just check out the GL-1 examples, the XL-1s pictures are just showing a focus problem on a bad unit. I do TONS of screen captures from our GL1 and post them to our website. I have never had jagged edge problems. The GL-1 is an excellent camera. I will have comments on the XL-1s if I can get a working unit :(

Anyway, the pictures are uncompressed full res .tiff files and are about a meg each, so they don't download very fast. They are untouched full frame captures.

http://www.azuho.com/waveform/camtest.html

Lets see some photos of the xl1s in low light @ +12 and the same with the xl1 low light @ +12.
Mark

More to the point of evaluating performance, lets see some pictures from the XL1s and XL1 of the same scene (low light if you like) at the same aperture, shutter and IRE level, and see how the noise/grain is and how the gain setting works out! And maybe note the XL1s image processing settings too!

I have received much e-mail since I first posted problems with the XL1s and they are seeing the same thing I am.

I will be calling Canon Monday to see if they’re going to do anything about this problem. If not I am going to sell my XL1s and try to get a new old XL1 back.

Howdy from Texas,

<< I have received much e-mail since I first posted problems with the XL1s and they are seeing the same thing I am. >>

This is exactly the reason why I was so reluctant to host a message board for all these years... this statement right here. I have a problem with it.

If you've received so much e-mail from other people having the same problem with their cameras, why don't they post *here* in plain view for everyone to see? What do they have to hide?

They'll tell you about it, but they won't go public on my boards? I don't get it.

Part of me seriously doubts that these people are genuine, since they won't discuss it online in an open forum. But then part of me thinks that for some bizarre reason, they're *afraid* to talk about it online. Either way, something ain't right.

So hey, if you call Canon in the morning, be sure to post their response here! Because I'd sure like to know myself. It's why I put up these boards *in the first place.*

Thanks,

Chris,

Why? I don't know why. They want to go public soon on a forum but we are talking about what one to use. This is a BIG problem with the XL1S and most of the posts on this problem don’t see what we are.

Most of the post on this problem never had the old XL1 and shoot weddings. I called one of my e-mails and talked to him and he was telling me the problem with the XL1S was exactly the same thing I am having.

The problem is that most of the post here are just not seeing what we are and need to show them exactly what’s wrong with the XL1S so we all can get this problem fixed.

We all ran out and bought the XL1S when it came available for the new features and are just not seeing the poor performers in low light. Nonetheless...the picture should improve - not get worse. I think we were ripped off bad. Everyone should get together and make Canon upgrade these poor performers.

There is NO DOUBT about this picture quality problem - none at all.

Mark, if you are so unhappy with the camera, why do you not just sell it, and get a Sony and get on one of the Sony boards. BTW, I heard that they are working on a new model, which will be even better than the current generation. It is so sensitive that it can see in the dark, and the darker it gets, the better the image gets. Also the auto focus always works, they even are thinking of removing the manual focus ring.
Alex
BTW, I am using my XL1S to shoot the weddings only, I used the XL1 before for about 4 years. It is a decent camera, I am earning good money with it. You can go and visit our site, we list our prices there, we do not discount and are busy.
www.alexvideo.com

Alex look at your video at your reception and see if you have noise in the blacks, and in the black tuxes of the grooms man.

Well this is what's happening.

Canon out of New York has called me and they are sending me a XL1 to use over night so they can look at my XL1s. They have received calls on this problem. All of you should check your XL1s's out and make sure they performer better than the old XL1.

To all,

Canon sent me a XL1 and I did side by side test and found that there is nothing wrong with my XL1s.

This is why I was seeing more noise.

1. The XL1s is 2-1/2 stops brighter than the old xl1 so when the video is brighter in +12db you will see more noise. You don't see it in the old XL1 cuz it's a way darker video cam.

2. I ran all kinds of test with these cams and the XL1s blows the old XL1 away. This is what I did to match the cams.

If you put the XL1s in +6db the cam almost matches the XL1 as far as light goes. If the old XL1 is locked on +12db and the new XL1s is locked in +6db the light readings are about the same.

In this setting the XL1s it still a little bit brighter the XL1 and there is maybe 10% more noise in the old XL1.

So what I will do is shot my receptions is +6 and push down the black level 1 or 2 clicks.

I am so happy that Canon sent me the XL1 before I sent mine out and was able to do these test.

When I looked at the XL1s vs. XL1 man I could not believe how much better it is in low light.

I hope Canon don’t get mad for sending me the XL1 for nothing.
They wanted me to send them mine. If I got the XL1s before I sold my old XL1 I could have done these test. I was going by old footage I had from the old XL1. Oh well live and lean. I still would like to get a Pan/DV200 looks like a good cam. Have to live with my XL1s & GL1 for now.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

Glad to hear this story has a happy ending. Your findings jive with my own, that the XL1S at +6db is like the XL1 at +12db.

As far as Canon USA sending you the older XL1 for side by side testing, well if that isn't an impressive testament to their commitment to customer service, I don't know what is. Thanks again,

Mark,

You didn't take any side by side videos/stills did you?
It would be great to see some DV or TIFF files somewhere
from both cameras shooting the same with the 6db
difference....

Thanks very much for the info!

Rob


Here are a few pic's of the XL1s +12db and the XL1 +12db.

And there is a shot of the XL1s in +6db with the XL1 in +12db showing the the XL1s is just as bright in the +6db as the XL1 in the +12db. They are tiff files about 1.2mb each.

http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/img/XL1+12.tif
http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/img/XL1s+12.tif
http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/img/XL1s+XL1.tif
http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/img/XL1+12db.tif
http://www.fast-mhz.com/XL1/img/XL1s+6db.tif

RockFord,

Thanks very much! This is very helpfull! Nice uncompressed
TIFFs.... joy... There is an amazing difference between the
two camera's... wow... Thanks ever so much!

NP anytime
Mark

To All,

After doing my test I came up with this that the XL1s

+6db is really +12db
+12db is really +18db
+18db is really +30db
+30db is really +60db

That’s if you go buy the amount of lower light the XL1s is better than the old XL1. Plus you have the slower shutter speeds that make the XL1s BIG BIG Improvement over the old XL1.

When will you shoot using the lower light setting?

Maybe if you’re shooting for COPS the TV show :)

All in all this is a GREAT Cam. Plus what I like about the XL1/XL1s is the shots really look like they looked when you shot then.

Most cams don't show that, but the Canon's XL1/XL1s show that 100%.

Mark

Not sure I understand the intent of the table, are you saying that +6 on the XL1s is equal to +12 on the XL1?
and wouldn't:
+18 -> +24, and
+30 -> +36
given that dB are additive?

I'd just like to add to this conversation that I'm not terribly happy with the noise level of the XL1s either, although I havn't had the opportunity to try it next to the XL1, I'm thinking thats kind of irrelivant.
Just looking at the footage I've taken so far in different circumstances, such as outside in a bright situation, inside with incandescent lighting, inside quite dimly lit; Outside when it's bright, and the cam is on Auto mode, the colours are quite washed out, as if it's over exposed all the time, So thats easily enough remedied with the AE trimming knob, but what is most concerning is the colour noise.
It almost looks like theres a constant, almost stationary noise pattern in the picture, almost banding in some places. It's not the completely random noise I'd expect to see in a CCD, I'm quessing its the filtering circuitry after the CCD block that's doing it.
Has anyone else noticed this? Maybe I just have to send mine in for testing and calibration.....

Paul

You are right that the AE negative trim is needed often. It tends to over expose... I use zebra a lot, and often have to trim the AE down. Also, when it overexposes, it brings the noise up, with gain. I doubt sending it in will do anything for you, as most of these functions are built in in the microprocessors code, and not adjustable.
Alex

With the XL1 Canon recommended using the -3 dB gain setting for best image noise performance. I presume that would apply to the XL1s as well.

dpalomaki,

-3 or 0db. That's if you have a lot of light. I shoot weddings and in the reception +6db it the best I can do with out bringing in some horse power lights. Out side I uses -3 and 0db.