Thanks to you both, Don and Mike, for your input. This won't be an immediate purchase, no matter what I go with; more like early next year. $6k-$8k is quite a lot of money for me at this point, and planning for the step up to a system of that cost must for me start now. Your last post, Mike, is rather dead on with what I think and feel. I DO want the speed and options of real lenses and sophistication in manual control, as well as the total improvement in picture quality. But I will definitely go to a display room somewhere (Safer Seas is in San Raphael now) and get some hands-on, as part of my thought process. Simply going with a second PD170 is probably the safest, most reasonable way to go, in the short term, as a green green professional shooting things for which the PD170 is plenty suitable. But reason isn't everything in this life. As far as the DSr250 goes, I thought that maybe THAT would be the intermediary solution, but it just isn't different enough in cost from the DVC for me to feel solid enough about it...
Ya da ya da ya!

Again, if there are handbooks or other resources on ENG cams and lenses, etc, I'm all eyes and ears.

Thanks!

Shawn

If you ever find yourself down around Vallejo, give me a call and maybe we can hook up and you can 'play' with my DSR-300.

I paid $3500 for the camera body, had the lens but could have bought one for around $500 and paid $1800 for a Sony LiON charger and one each of the small, medium and large LiON batteries. Of course then you have to consider a larger tripod and a carrying bag. PortaBrace for about $300 and I just bought an OConnor tripod and sticks off of ebay for $600 plus about $400 in repair parts (lost bits) and I have a great tripod system. Used my old big Bogen for years before I did this.

Thanks for the offer! I will surely take you up on that sometime. The dsr390 was one of my first loves (however long distant) in the world of shoulder cams. Takes me back to good ol' '03, when the bug had only just begun to bite hard. Ouch! Ouch!
:-]

Hi guys,

I am in the process of buying a new camera but i don't know which one to buy between the mentioned cameras. Basically my footages are going to be local documentaries, interviews etc.

BTW. Do you have any reviews re the Sony DSP-250.

Thanks

Miklos, I can't offer much insight, but have you also considered the Panasonic DVC200? It's in a similar price bracket, shoulder mounted ENG camera, with 1/2" chips. I've heard good things about it.

Aaron

Hi Miklos. I've recently been looking into the DSR250 as well. I can't think of specific reviews that I've come across, but doing a search of the camera here is a good start, as you probably already have. I would then go over to DV.COM and do the same. There are quite a few 250 users over there who have, over the last few years, posted their thoughts about the cam onto threads just like this one. Bill KC has good and interesting things to say, as does jerrycaz. They are usually having to compare it to other relatively affordable shoulder cams, such as the DVC200 or the DV5000, despite it's final product being much more like the PD150/PD170, but good info for you even so...
The fact that you've listed it with these progressive scan cams (rather than the PD170, the existence of which you surely must already be aware) must be meaningful in some way? I am interested in the camera that Aaron mentioned, the DVC200, so part of my response is to also suggest it. If you have an $8k budget for a cam, cheap lens, batteries, and VTR, and that's about it! Or $6k for a dsr250 package. (Tripod and lights?). I guess you might want to think about whether you want a shoulder cam, or progressive scan? The PD170 is going at a pretty good price right now through B&H, btw, $2900 or so. Not a lot of user feedback on the XL2 as of yet. The DVX100A would certainly serve you well, 24p or not, unless of course you wanted a shoulder cam...

Shawn

Hi Guys,

Which batteries do you use with Sony DSR-250. I heard of Sony, IDX, Anton Bauer & Hawk Woods, but which are the best???


Thanks

That is sort of like asking which gum you like best. It is mainly a matter of personal taste.

I"ve always had very good luck with Sony batteries and I don't have to worry about compatibility at any level.

The best way to select a battery supplier is to first insure that they can supply the:

- battery chemistry you want
- capacity you want
- size you want
- weight you want
- mount you want

That the chargers are appropriate to your needs with regard to:

-charge speed
- # of batteries that are simultaneously charged (as opposed to how many can you hang on the charger)
- variety of input voltages to power the charger
- intelligence level of the charger
- can the charger also run the camera directly?

I disagree the previous post. It is not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of which battery is better. AntonBauer makes high quality bateries that are much better than the Sony ones. Of course you pay what you get for, so AntonBauer is not cheap.

Regards.

OK, I don't own one but a friend of mine and I have been having a discussion abiut the audio setup on the DSR250. He says you can not seperate the channels like you can on the PD150/170-Channel 1/2 and Channel 1. I believe you can, otherwise what good do 3 XLR inputs do you. I realize the front XLR is generally going to be used for the on cam mic and the 2 rear XLRs for handheld or wireless with only the capability of having 2 channels but the point is he feels that the audio track can't be seperated. Channel 1 and Channel 2.

DSR250 gurus what say you?

(There's a small wager riding on this :-)

Thanks Don B.

EDIT to Question.
What I'm asking is, "is it a mechanical switch or a menu item".
Perhaps that will clear up the question.
Don B

You win. Ask him what the two separate level controls are for on the camera and them point him to page 54 of the camera manual.

Thanks Mike,
Thats kind of what I figured but to be honest, never having used a 250 nor being able to see a quality pic of one, I just wanted to be sure before rubbing his nose....I mean tell him in a kind and gentle way he is wrong.

Thanks again,
Don B

I saw PD170 minimum illumination and it says 1 lux, while DSR250 says 2 lux with 18db. Is it correct? Why they´re different if the CCD size and both lens are almost the same? The PD170 minimum ilummination (1lux) isn´t with any gain?

The numbers are at max gain for both cameras. The advantage of the 170 is that the noise level is lower, not that the picture is any 'brighter.'

The difference is that the image processing after the CCD seems to be better. Sony has made several conflicting statements about what they changed but their first statement (and the one I tend to believe) is that they improved the post-CCD image processing.

Just because the CCD size and lens are the same doesn't mean that the cameras should perform identically. There are other 1/3" cameras out there with similar lenses and inferior low-light performance.

Thanks, Mike.

Which one is better under low light situation: DSR-500 or PD-170? I´m asking ´cause I read this about DSR-500:

"Minimum Illumination: 0.5Lux with F1.4, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR) 0.8Lux with F1.8, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR)"

Ok, the big cam works with 0,5lux, but with a much higher gain. Using 18db, that is PD-170´s limit, DSR-500 would perform just a LITTLE better. Am I right?

No, the numbers don't tell you about video noise. The 170 is much better. The only pro camera that I know about that matches the 170 is the DSR-390 and the 170 still might be just a bit better.

I'm not sure either about which camera is more sesitive: PD170 or DSR-570... We all know that DSR570 is a high-end broadcast camera that surpases PD170 in almost every aspect, but, what about low light capabilities... ? Maybe bigger chip and lens means that more light is needed, don't you think so ? I once worked with a DSR-570 and I must say that it is sensitive, but not much sensitive than a PD170. That suprises me.

Has anyone done any A/B comparisons ? That would be welcomed.

Best Regards.

Yes it has been done and the results were posted on DVInfo.net. Bottom line, the 170 is better in low light.

Hey Mike, do you remember the post of this comparison?

Robert, I was talking about the DSR-500. I know DSR-570 is better under low light. The problem is: maybe I´m about to work with both at the same time, the PD-170 and DSR-500. A friend of mine said DSR-500 is MUCH MORE SENSITIVE under low light than PD-170.

It's weird isn't it ? DSR-500 or 570 is at least 5 times as expensive as a PD170 and the PD170 is slightly better in low light.

How can this be possible ? Is there any technical reason that explains this fact ?

<<<-- Originally posted by Gustavo Godinho : Hey Mike, do you remember the post of this comparison?

Robert, I was talking about the DSR-500. I know DSR-570 is better under low light. The problem is: maybe I´m about to work with both at the same time, the PD-170 and DSR-500. A friend of mine said DSR-500 is MUCH MORE SENSITIVE under low light than PD-170. -->>>

I'm sorry but I've worked with both and the 500 (WS) is definitely not as useable as the 170 in low light.

My DSR 250 has very loud motor noise when I zoom fast, both my vx2000's don't even come close to that noise, slow zoom no problem, has any encountered this before?


Thanks
Mike

Hey guys, trying to export to tape (share) simple wedding video onto DSR-250. Have no problem importing video from camera to TV. When I click share to videocamera, iMovie goes through the process of beginning its export. The DSR250 LCD screen goes to record pause mode and then just quits. iMovie gives a message "lost camera connection. check connections, etc..." I have. No problem. I have restarted computer, powered off and on camera multiple times, and umplugged the Firewire cable multiple times to no avail. Of course I am in VTR mode. Also, when viewing edited video in the iMovie window, no video shows up on the LCD screen of the 250 even though I have selected "play video through to camera" in the preferences of iMovie. Any suggestions or help? Have done this successfully many times before w/the 250.

Meant to say no problem importing tape from camera to COMPUTER not TV.

Try deleting the iMovie preferences.

Where are the iMovie preferences located at? Thanks in advance.

if you recently download final cut HD or some other program of that type on you computer that could be the problem. if you have, then you are going to have to take it off of you library before imovie will work.

Yes, I do have Final Cut HD as well. I installed FC Pro about 6 months ago. Not sure if I have used iMovie since installing FC-I'm thinking I have used it for another project but not positive. Do I just delete everything that is Final Cut related? Are there any hidden files I need to delete as well? Preference files, etc .... Thanks for helping out this amateur.

Update! I have tried the following things since last post: 1) deleted iMovie preference file, 2) deleted Final Cut HD and related apps, 3) rebooted enough times w/many different configurations-firewire plugged in, firewire unplugged-camera on, camera off-etc...., 4) repaired permissions. Yes, I am in VTR mode. Yes, I have plenty of tape (blank). Write protection turned off. There is no problem importing tape from camera to computer. Also, when importing, iMovie CAN control the camera. That would lead me to assume that communication is indeed going both ways. Is there some special communication when attempting to export (share) back to videocamera? This is happening now on two of my cameras: the Sony DSR-250 and Sony DCR-VX 2000. Never had a problem before now-even with Final Cut installed. Could I have firewire ports gone bad? Apple did replace my motherboard free of charge earlier this year. Have done several successful projects since then. I have a dual 2.0 ghz G5 w/512k RAM. Should I reset the CUDA switch? If I can't get this figured out, this machine is going back to Apple. Need help from all you pros. Thanks in advance.

There is no problem between iMovie and FCP HD or other versions of FCP, that I'm aware of. We have both programs on the computers at the school I teach at and there are no problems. Have you reinstalled iMovie, repaired permissions etc.? What version of iMovie are you using? Is iMovie in the Applications folder and is the Applications folder in the default location?

I am not saying that there is a problem between Imovie and final cut HD. all I am saying is after installing final cut HD on my computer I started to have the same problem and I went to the apple website, I don't remember ecxactly the site, and they said that I had to move some fcp HD component from my library and I went and did what they said and it worked. I can't remember exactly what I did but I am sure if you go to apple website and browse you will find the answer like I did. let me know if you find anything on the apple web site if not I'll look for it.

One more thing I forgot to mentioned. even if you remove final cut HD from you computer there is some component still in your library that you have to go in and remove mannually.

Problem Solved! Ed, you are right. There are two components that have to be removed from the Quicktime Library. I also received a reply from the MacDV list. Here is a quote from that email:

"The solution is to temporarily move the following files from /Library/QuickTime/ to the Desktop:
? DesktopVideoOut.component
? DVCPROHDVideoOutput.component
Restart the computer and try exporting from iMovie to your camera.
When you need to use Final Cut Pro HD again, drag these files back to /Library/QuickTime/ and restart the computer."

This worked! Thanks for all the suggestions and help from the DV Info Net community.

I am glad it worked for you.

Hi, I'm from the other side (Canon), thinking about buying the Sony 250, instead of the XL-2. I shoot legal depos, weddings, training, etc. I prefer a camera that is a shoulder mounted style, and like the longer tapes the 250 can use. I have heard there had been some problems with this camera, but couldn't find them when I did a search. Is the image quality as good as a PD-170?Any comments are appreciated. Thank you

I don't think there is an innate problem with this camera. It may be that a few people were having like troubles at one point. I don't know. I don't shoot with this camera, but I have done some homework on it and I do shoot with the PD170, and from what I've read, and from what I know about the 170, and based on your needs, I say the 250 would be an excellent camera for you. The quality of the 250's image is just the same as the 170's. The 250 is a very good choice.

I may sound 'blasphemous' here, but wouldn't a 1/2"CCD camera like say, the JVC GY DV5000 be a better bet for image quality than the DSR 250 which has the same chip size as the PD170? The price between the DSR 250 & GY DV5000 is very close with the JVC costing slightly more.

Thank you, you are right. The JVC does have the 1/2 chips, but the camera has ALOT of plastic and feels cheap. Even the paint on the handle flakes off, like it did on the 500 model. Picky picky.... It's like everything else, one has something that the other one doesn't. Thanks all. (still thinking about the XL2)

I think you will find that the JVC comes without a lens, which will add a considerable amount to the price.

The base kit with the Canon 16x7 Lens cost about 5400$.

Actually, the 250 is still better in low light but the DSP in the 5000 makes very nice images when there is adequate light.

If you want the sensitivity and the advantages of a pro camera, a nice used, low-hour DSR-300 or 300A can be had with lens, batteries and charger for about the same price as the 5000. The advantage is that the 300A can use full or mini cassettes.

With both the 250 and 5000, you have to plan on around a thousand dollars more for battery and charger. Probably more like $1500 more in fact.

I don't know the precise price comparisons, but if you're considering these two cameras, consider also the Panasonic DVC200. No side screen, but doesn't feel like plastic the way the JVC does, and gives you those pro features. I'm pretty sure it's right in the same price category. Don't know it compares to the 250 in the way of light sensitivity, but I know of fellas that do the same kind of shooting you do and swear by this camera (for the price).

I started using the 200 not too long ago, and it seems to work real well for me. I also purchased another for spare, which is the A model. My question is: does anyone know if there is a lens hood that can be used with either of these cams that will allow you to use a wide angle adapter? For my type of work, not using the lens hood is really impractial.

Most of the solutions are cumbersome but the simplest seems to be to use a lens hood directly on the WA adapter. I found that my Mamiya RB67 lens hood just fit the Century WA adapter on my PD150. There is a commercially available lens hood from CAVision IIRC. Expect about a $200 or so price tag.

I've got a DSR250 that is 4 years old and runs like a dream. I've literally never had a problem with it. I'm wondering if I should bring it in for a basic checkup. The hours are: operation 86 x 10, drum run 72 x 10, tape run 39 x 10, threading 30 x 10.

May be ready or almost ready for a head change. Have them measure the heads while they are in there.

Most conservative commercial users have their equipment cleaned and checked every year.

I don't because I think that unless you have a service person you really trust, sending a camera in is a crap-shoot. For example, Sony has a 1 for 2 track record with me. I sent in my new 150 and when they returned it, they'd screwed up backfocus. Total loss of service = 3 weeks and about $150 in overnight express bills. Next time they got it, I don't know if they caused any problems because they sent me a new one.

A technician at Canon Pro service in London once said to me as far as cameras go..
"If it ain't broke don't fix it"...

Personally I've never had a still or video camera serviced unless it has a fault..

as I've had enough bad experiences with gear being fixed and something else having been disturbed...

If your 250 is running fine, be grateful about it and use it until it shows some weakness...

Just my opinion..

Regards

Gareth

I have a DSR250 which I use for weddings and music / corporate work. I would like to add a second camera - I have aTRV950, but the shots don't match well in terms of colour or quality. I was thinking about a Z1 & FX1 as I shoot a lot of 16:9, but I am concerned about the low light abilities.

Has anyone done a direct comparison between the VX2100 (or PD170 if it is the same lens / ccd) and the DSR 250?

Thanks

Graeme,
The VX2100 and the PD170 are virtually the same---electronics,CCDs,glass, I say virtually just in case the is a miniscuel difference. However the DSR250 is along the lines of the VX2000,PD150 in terms of glass,electronics and CCDs.
Having said that though, the VX2100 and the DSR250 should match up pretty well with the exception being in alow light situation where the 2100 will be somewhat better than the 250, much the same as the 2100 would be somewhat better than the PD150 or VX2000. All things being equal though the 150/2000 and 170/2100 all seem to match up very nicely with the 250. You might need to play a bit with the custom presets to get a perfect match but I know it can be done as I have a few friends that use those combos. I've even gotten my 150s to match up with my old VX1000 (well pretty close anyway) and not to far from a really good match with the 150s and a JVC5000.
I think the 2100 and 250 combo would be a really good combination for you.
HTH
Don

Hi,

I'm going on a job this weekend. I want to do some intervalrecording, and from what I can see this is possible with the DSR-250.

So I'm simply just looking for a how-to-do-it. And possibly if there's anything I should pay attention to.

Thanks!

Regards

Thomas Hartz-Olsson