When in 16:9 mode, and looking through the VF, do you notice the top part of the screen (the black part) flickering?

And also, what is an "S terminal" ?

It says in the manual that TV's with S (S1)-Terminals will automatically playback 16:9 footage in widescreen mode.


j.

no

My guess is S-terminal =s-video

i noticed the flicker too... it only occurs when the VF is adjusting to the change from 4:3 to 16:9 and vice versa...

I see no flicker.

Yes, it is s-video.

Jay

<<<-- Originally posted by John Wheeler : When in 16:9 mode, and looking through the VF, do you notice the top part of the screen (the black part) flickering?

You mean you see in the top of the view finder some flickering? My guess, it that this simply means that the plastic framr of the VF do not cover the upmost lines of the image. If someone else does not see flickering, the plastic frames are in a slightly different position.

This is not harmful and, in fact, the question is of an effect which has to do with the TV-standard. Moreover, some pro-level viewfinders enable you to see the flickering all the time. So, without seeing what you mean, my guess is still that there is no reason to worry.

<<<-- Originally posted by Lauri Kettunen : You mean you see in the top of the view finder some flickering? My guess, it that this simply means that the plastic framr of the VF do not cover the upmost lines of the image.

Think of watching footage in letterbox mode. Then look at the black that is above and below the image. The whole black area above the image, in the view finder, flickers. It's not like it's an area thats very close to the edge. It's the entire black area above the image.


<<<-- Originally posted by Nick Hiltgen: My guess is S-terminal =s-video


Are you positive it's s-video? ..Because the manual doesnt call it "s-video" ...and also, I tried hooking the camera through the s-video input on my tv, but it didnt "automatically display in 16:9" as the manual claimns. It still displayed stretched.


j.

John Wheeler writes:
>>>>>>>>Are you positive it's s-video? ..Because the manual doesnt call it "s-video" ...and also, I tried hooking the camera through the s-video input on my tv, but it didnt "automatically display in 16:9" as the manual claimns. It still displayed stretched.

John,

That is because the XL2 is outputting real, anamorphic 16:9 which is meant to be resolved on a monitor capable of resolving anamorphic 16:9.

>>>>>>>>It says in the manual that TV's with S (S1)-Terminals will automatically playback 16:9 footage in widescreen mode.


The S-Video output terminal is in fact doing what is claimed in the manual - it is outputting 16:9 footage. You need to understand that it is meant to be resolved on a real 16:9 capable monitor. This is real 16:9, not simulated, electronically iterpolated 16:9 as found on some other cameras.

When capturing your XL2 16:9 footage with your favorite NLE, you would set your NLE preferences to "Anamorphic 16:9"

Good luck,

- don

<<<Think of watching footage in letterbox mode. Then look at the black that is above and below the image. The whole black area above the image, in the view finder, flickers. It's not like it's an area thats very close to the edge. It's the entire black area above the image.>>>

about the flickering... it's nothing... it's on all the cameras... that guy probably doesn't see it... i know exactly what youre talking about... the black bar on the top is what flickers, and only does so when youre switching to and from 4:3 and 16:9 like i stated earlier...it's just the VF switching modes... nothing to worry about... the flickering isn't very noticable... maybe it's why that guy couldn't see it...

<<<-- Originally posted by John Wheeler : And also, what is an "S terminal" ?

It says in the manual that TV's with S (S1)-Terminals will automatically playback 16:9 footage in widescreen mode.
j. -->>>

John,

Some widescreen TVs have the ability to sense 16x9 material and automatically switch into 16x9 mode. Some 4x3 sets can do this as well by collapsing the raster to preserve vertical detail. This auto-sensing feature is not available on composite video inputs. I suspect it is looking for a flag in the vertical interval which is filtered out by the notch or comb filters found in most chroma decoders.

Paul

kevin,

Actually, the flicker is always there, when in 16:9 mode, not just when you switch. ....I kept it on for about 20 minutes, and it never stopped. I also saw some flicker around the (zoom indicator).

If other people see this, and agree that is it normal, then I don't mind. But I dont want to spend 5,000 and have a defective product.


So Paul, Are you saying that some 4:3 tv's may be able to display 16:9 footage in letterbox, straight from the camera via the s-video cable?

j.

John

I'm not seeing any on mine...I switched through all the frame rate modes...nothing in any of them...I think you should call canon about it.

Barry

Just for the record, I talked to a guy from Canon. He was holding an XL2 in his hands, and he couldnt detect any "flicker" in the VF whatsoever. He said it shouldnt be doing that. So ..looks like im packing my camera up and shipping back to B&H.


j.

[expletive deleted] I just got it in the mail 10 min ago, I set everything up - turn it on and whats the first thing I notice? HMMMM... my viewfinders flickering thats annoying. Now I find that it may be a defect. I WAITED 10 DAYS FOR THIS TO COME IN THE MAIL!!! BAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

anyways does anyone think its worth shipping back? It is a 5k peice of equipment... if its not a definate defect I dont want to swap this camera with another that does the same thing.

Matt,

Thats my problem exactly. Is the flicker "normal" or not? ...the guy at Canon, could not see any sort of flicker. And a guy at B&H said "It shouldnt be doing that" ....But I have this feeling that I'm going to pack the camera up, wait another 2 or 3 weeks, get the new camera, and see the same thing. I wish a few more xl-2 owners would check their cameras for this issue and post the results.


j.

Would XL2 owners just take a minute to see if your camera does this? If you angle the viewfinder up at little bit I find its more prominent. It does not do this as much in 30p and not at all in 60i.

I dont see any flicker at all.

imma look again in a dark room... brb

okay check it... this is what i came up with... when you looking at it straight on, you won't be able to see the flickering...even when you switch modes... the VF lcd does not flicker in 4:3 mode... in 16:9 mode however, if you look at the lcd with the VF flipped up and at an angle, you'll see the flickering (only on the letterboxed black bars... the image itself is perfectly fine) and i also notice that it flickers on both top bar and bottom...only at an angle though...

lets try and figure out if this is normal... maybe it's the underscan thing??

Kevin, you described it perfectly. That is exactly what is happening with mine. And like you said, I wish we could find out fast, if it's normal or not, because I'm running out of time before I can send it to B&H for a fresh one.


j.

shouldn't canon replace it for you... isn't that what the one year thing is all about??? warranty???

One would hope at least. I don't doubt Canons dedication though. I'm sure if it really is a bug that Canon will do something about it.

I wonder if the Canon guy that was talked to (Earlier post) checked the viewfinder from odd angles in 16:9? If not he probably wouldn't have seen the flicker as described by Kevin.....

ok,
if I stand on my head and lean 20 degrees left, every time I blink my eyes mine flickers.

Aaron. I was on the phone with the guy at Canon, while he was looking in the VF ...and I described to him about looking in the VF from different angles. He could not detect anything at all.

And kevin, It just seems like sending it to Canon would be more of an ordeal. I would rather have a fresh camera, than a fixed one. ..Ofcourse, if Canon cant fix it, I know they'll send a new one. But it just seems like it would take along time for me to get it back. ...


j.

Kevin..John...not happening on mine...you aren't sitting under some flourescent lights when doing this are you? When you say you've got to open the viewfinder to see it that would lead me to some environmental factor...regardless...it's not happening on mine (viewing under skylight).

Barry

Barry. It wasnt near any flourescent lights, in my case. I walked around the entire house, and it was the same. Also, I notice the flicker with the VF both ways, up and down.


j.

Interesting... wish I had one to experiment with ;).

Sorry about that John. I didn't notice that you were the one who had spoken with the Canon guy. Guess I should go back and check these things before posting!

Barry, How would Flourescent lighting cause flicker? I don't doubt that it could - don't get me wrong. I just don't understand the physics behind it.

<<<-- Originally posted by John Wheeler : And kevin, It just seems like sending it to Canon would be more of an ordeal. I would rather have a fresh camera, than a fixed one. .. -->>>

Most warranties would not entitle you to this, since your camera becomes "used" the moment you open the box. This is not to say that your vendor wouldn't exchange it for a new one as a courtesy, but I'd be surprised if they were obligated to do so because of one defect...

aaron--not sure that it could...but flickering can be caused by things being out of phase..both flourescent lights and the signal being fed to the LCD have a certain frequency...so when kevin described this is as being visible only when the LCD is open...I just wanted to rule out that their could be something external causing it...doesn't sound like this is the case.

barry

When I was playing with a couple of XL2s at the WEVA expo, I don't recall seeing any kind of flicker. Mine will be here Thursday. I'll let you know more then.

okay It definately still flickers

"F" IT, IM KEEPIN IT

ill just pretend its supost too...

Matt

I'd still try to schedule some time where you can send it into canon...it looks like there are more than just you out there with this problem, my guess is that they might just switch out the EVF completely (not that I know)...Join the XL club...the turn around on cameras is usually about 10 days...until then...have fun with it.

Barry

Well, I currently have three XL2 cams here with me for ResFest 2004 and none of them are exhibiting the flickering which you are describing.

Matt, I just realized that you live in Andover, Massachusetts. That is not too far from where I am (Boston)
If you have the time this coming week to pay me a visit with your XL2, I'll take a personal look at your XL2.

On Thursday, September 16 - I will be in downtown Boston for the September BOSFCPUG meeting (http://www.bosfcpug.org) at the Billy Bordy Theatre at Emerson College on 216 Tremont Street in the first floor theatre. Stop by if you can, I will be there from 7pm - 10pm.

From September 17-18 I will be at the Brattle Theatre in Harvard Square for RESFEST Boston 2004 (resfest.com). Send me an email if you would like to stop by during this time.

I'll be in NYC for IFP beginning on September 19, so if you have the time to bop by with your XL2 before then, send me an email and let me know.

Best regards,

- don

okay okay... here's the deal... i called canon also, and this is exactly what he said...."I can't see the flickering"... BUT... here's the good part... i live 15mins away from the canon service center, and imma bring it in tomorrow morning and have them take a look at it...

barry... as for the florecent theory, i was in a room with no light... not even daylight (i closed the blinds)... i'd figure the flickering will be harder to see in the daylight...

but for those non-believers...er non-see-er's?? here's the best way to see...

put it to 16:9 with the lense cap on (in a dark room preferrably)... you will still be able to see the letterbox bars... now tilt it to about 120degrees... you'll see the flickering... it's wasn't a big deal to me at first, i just thought it was like that... but now it's a f'n conspiricy... thank the thread starter guys... now i won't have my xl2 for a couple of days... jus playin...

p.s. how dope is the images yall getting from this piece... i've made my DVX fanboy friend a believer... and of course my sonyhead friend is still hatin on the XL2 though...

Kevin Chao writes:
>>>>>>>>"put it to 16:9 with the lense cap on (in a dark room preferrably)... you will still be able to see the letterbox bars... now tilt it to about 120degrees... you'll see the flickering... "

Seriously now, this is the only time you can see the flickering? When the lens cap is on and you tilt it 120 degrees? Come on now, how is that a problem? I followed your steps and tried to invoke the flickering in the EVF's of all three of the XL2 cams I currently have in my possession - couldn't see any flickering at all. I feel like I have been had...

>>>>>>>>"it's wasn't a big deal to me at first, i just thought it was like that... but now it's a f'n conspiricy... thank the thread starter guys... "

Really now.

>>>>>>>>"now i won't have my xl2 for a couple of days... jus playin... "

"Jus playin..." ??? There is going to be a point when people will have to stop obsessing and trying to find problems with their new purchases and start to look at the positives and actually get out there and start shooting something interesting. It's time to start moving forward and create something, you know?

- don

Don,

Straight out of the box, brightly lit living room, lens cap off, turned the camera on, flipped it to 16:9 ..and looked through the VF ...the very first thing I saw/noticed was obvious strobbing/flickering in the VF, which does become more apparent when viewed at an angle. Now I don't know where other people come from, and it hasnt been proven yet whether it's a defect or not, but when I lay down $5,000, I dont care how small it is, if it's a defect, I'm going to be frustrated and concerned about how/if I can get it corrected.


j.

mine has zero flicker....sounds like you need to return it and move on.

John Wheeler writes:
>>>>>>>>"Straight out of the box, brightly lit living room, lens cap off, turned the camera on, flipped it to 16:9 ..and looked through the VF ...the very first thing I saw/noticed was obvious strobbing/flickering in the VF, which does become more apparent when viewed at an angle."

Hi John,

Of course, I can in no way corroborate that you do indeed have a tech issue, unless I see it in person - and that is not going to be possible since we live in opposite sides of the US. I do know that if I were able to personally look at your camera, I would be able to tell. My point is that it would seem the only way to determine if you have a problem is to let an authorized Canon technician look at it.

Best of luck,

- don

Ya know, I don't own an XL2. So take my remarks with care.

But after reading through this "fickerin' " issue it seems that it's quite possibly a psycho-perceptual issue. That is, just as some people see computer monitors flicker at certain refresh rates others do not. It looks like there's some degree of noticeability with regard to the whether the camera's in progressive or interlaced mode, and the frame rate setting.

I have noticed a faint flicker in my DVX100A's lcd when the camera's in 24P under certain lighting conditions (but not the viewfinder).

One somewhat non-scientific test to this theory is to have a few (alcoholic) drinks, wait 30-45 min and then see if you can still see "flickerin'". (Don't drink so much that you can't even see your feet.)

If nothing else, even if you still see it it won't be as bothersome. Of course you might now have focus complaints.

damn, I took your advice....had 4 stiff drinks, waited 40 minutes and now my camera is a "fickerin' "

I'm going to ship it back 1st thing in the morning.

Yuh. I tried it myself an' now my durn XL1S is flickerin' ... an' it ain't even on.

Ken your test doesn't work I had 5 drinks and I don't see anything... at all, in fact I'm typing this and I'm not sure I'm even hitting the right keys.

Your post was was hilarious, of course I really have been drinking so maybe in the mornign it'll be less funny.

Its a defect - I'm returning mine today - I called the store.

lata

just got back from the CANON service center... at first the guy couldn't see it... of course i insisted that it's quite evident that it's there... upon closer observation... he saw it... he took it to the technician and compared with other xl2's and they all have the flicker... it's normal... don't sweat it thread starter... it's all to the good... for those that couldn't see it... yall probably didn't look hard enough... it's no big deal tho... this thread ends here...

Just cause it's "normal" doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. By that reasoning you could have taken your PD150 into the service centre stating that there is an audible hiss, and when tested against the other PD150's been told it's normal.. Would you have settled for it?

If it annoys the hell out of you then get one that doesn't have this as some seem to not be showing this problem.

Aaron

Yep, mine has it too. I don't even have to flip open the vf. I can see it in the normal lid closed position. Just like eveyone else, it's not really noticable when you view straight on, but if you look upward, it's visible but NOT THAT DISTRACTING, to me anyway.

I'm loving the hell out of this camera right now. It's staying!

regards,

-gb-

it doesn't bother me... aaron do you even have and XL2??? this and the hiss on the sony are two complete different problems... this flickering thing is only cosmetic... it does not show on the recording... and it's only noticable when viewed at an extreme angle... you're comparing this to the Hiss problem??? wow...

Kevin, of course I don't think they're the same level of severity - I was drawing a long bow. But the logic still stands.

If you have noticed something about your camera that you don't like, and there are others that have it, does that make it acceptable - I don't think it follows at all that it does. That's what I was meaning.

Aaron

But Aaron.... It seems like this thing is somewhat elusive in nature...I'm not sure you could really call it a defect if noone can see it until you tell them to stand on their heads, smoke a joint and then to cross their eyes while rotating the damn thing exactly 120 degrees forward....I mean who would look at a LCD at a 120 degree angle in the first place...you can't see anything but a Man Ray solarization of your image from there anyway.

I still can't see it...if the canon guys are saying this is a feature, not a defect...then dammit...my camera is defective...its lacking...impotent...I'm not sure I can go on.

Don't make me cuss anymore..please.

Barry

Haha Barry - Yeah you better send yours back in to get the feature added ;)

I wasn't making a big deal of it, so sorry if people though I was, I just don't like it when some service guy will go "Well the other cameras we tried does it." Cause that doesn't solve the fact that it's still there :)


Aaron