Hello everyone, i'm starting a new website called www.FilmExposure.net that currently offers a forum that isn't swayed by sponsers and will offer classified ads and webspace to display your work.

(I'm not cursing anyone on this board, i would just like to see a board where companies don't sway opinions.)

Anyway, Please swing by and tell me what else you'd like to see on the site as it is in a development phase at the moment.

Good luck to you, Adam.

I am, however, curious about two items. (Note: I absolutely do not want to ignite a heated discussion on the subject, just curious as a moderator here.)

1. Can you cite an example of where you believe an opinion was "swayed" by a sponsor here? Perhaps provide a link to a specific thread?

2. You are funding your site's support through your own resources?

If you feel more comfortable replying to me via email please feel free to do so. Again, I am just curious and respect your right to your opinion and your initiative to act on it.

Ken,

I was kind of wondering the same thing myself. I've followed this site (dvinfo.net) from just about the start. I did not register in the forum until this year due to not owning a XL1s. This place offers up a wealth of knowledge sans advertisers influence. I don't ever recall a member/sponsor/vendor stepping in and adding influence. That is what I love about this place.

So I would like to see a reference as well.

*** NOTE - I am not trying to stir anything up either, but I kind of feel a need to defend this site.

I not a disgruntled ex-dvinfo.net user or anything, i just wanted to see a site that "did it all" Displayed new works, Classified section, fresh Scripts, expert advise etc.

This page as very very helpful in the past but there have been threads where the conversation was pushed away from other resellers and to xgc and the other sponcers. I'll have to search for the threads but it's a bit difficult to search for.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't use this forum...i think this site is great (infact there's a link here on my site) but i would like totally free conersation where anything can be said about any company in addition to various types works.

www.fimexposure.net in a testing phase where the people who visit it will mold it into the site they wish.

Help me out guys, it's a good idea isn't it?

<<<-- just wanted to see a site that "did it all" Displayed new works...>>>

This idea here is a good one. It would be nice to have a single site where people can post or link to their works with the specs of what they used. Only problem with hosting all that data on your own site is server space and bandwidth which is NOT cheap.

<<<This page as very very helpful in the past but there have been threads where the conversation was pushed away from other resellers and to xgc and the other sponcers. >>>

Dude that's really a bit uptight. I personally don't find any real biased favoritism here. But fact is...this world in general is FULL of bias. Each company touts their product as the best and doesn't want you using any others. Just look at Microsoft's long history. The best you can do is keep an open mind and think for yourself. I can't see though where you find that here in such abundance to be disturbed by it.


Revolver1010.

I think it sounds like a good idea, but I'd try to norrow the focus of your site down a little. There are loads of sites out there with expert advice on everything under the sun. Why not try to focus it on giving exposure to new works, or scripts or something?
Or maybe make it an international meeting place for people looking for other people to help eachother out in their projects.

There are so many forums out there, and new ones going up all the time. Unless you do something different, it may be hard to get people to join and stay.

And as far as sponsors go, if you plan on paying for it all yourself, you can do whatever you like. But having sponsors is a co-operative relationship. They expect to get promotion in return for their money. Promote other people and you are back to paying for the site by yourself real quick. Just the way it is.

Anyway, good luck!

Just like the Moderator, I don't mean to incite any aggression, just trying to promote a idea.

<< Each company touts their product as the best and doesn't want you using any others. Just look at Microsoft's long history.>>

While other companies do practice this, that doesn’t stop me from trying to make it better. And Microsoft is the last company to look for ethical practices.

Nonetheless, if you all have anything you'd like to see on the site feel free to e-mail me. at adamjamalcraig@softhome.netnospam
(take off the "nospam")

In fact if you wish to see exactly how the influence comes in to effect, search the word sponsor and you'll see how often it pops up. Nothing wrong with it, i'd just like to see a little less bias.

Oh, and yes, "i can do it all" there's nothing stopping me. Everything great started as a simple yet impossible idea and I have a simple/impossible idea.

Thanks for the good luck wish.

<<<-- And Microsoft is the last company to look for ethical practices>>>

Ummm... I hope you didn't miss understand me. That's the point I was trying to make... that there are a lot of unethical practices going on and to even further stress that this forum is extremely modest in biased recommendations.


Revolver1010.

I am probably more guilty of reminding people to check out the sponsors than anyone (except, maybe, Chris Hurd). Why? Because i've heard more of the horror stories than most, if not, all of you. I teach photography and digital photography at a local school (part time). It's pretty much Adult Education, alot of retirees (read large disposable incomes, lots of nice new toys) but some younger afluents also. Every six weeks I get 40 to 50 new students. Almost all with brand new cameras they can't figure out. I'd say about 80% bought mail order, internet etc. the other 20% bought local (Ritz Camera, 1 or 2 local stores). Let me tell you I've heard it all, from companies shipping empty boxes, to missing accessories, out and out lies about grey market and warranties, etc. I could go on and on. I can think of only 3 or 4 major mail order, internet companies I have not heard a legitimate complaint about.

My opinions are based on 20 plus years in the photography, video production fields. I've owned my own post production company (over 20 employees when I sold it), worked for network television, DP a feature shot on miniDV (it went to Sundance), taught Avid editing and I've taught production, lighting,camera work etc. on and off for 20 years. My opinions are not for sale or influenced by any sponsor. I do not now or have I in the past worked for any of the sponsors. Sponsors, do however, fill a necessary role. They help pay the bills. For that we owe them a round of thanks and we owe them at the very least, the opportunity to serve us. Just give them a chance to earn our business. I don't see anything wrong with that or do I feel guilty for suggesting it. Chris has rounded up some great sponsors with great product lines. All I'm suggesting is that the next time you have an equipment need call a sponsor and give them a shot at your business. I do that in my business. The last time I bought a car, I bought from a dealer that did business with me. It was the fair thing to do. It's the way I do business, it's the ethical thing to do.

Jeff

Well Spoken. It appears our opinion on the matter is very similar. When I find a good dealer I recommend them a lot as well.

There's just becomes a fine line between genuine heartfelt recommendations and contractual recommendations.

Let us shake hands and contiune to co-exist.

Dah... where's Chris. I'm glad his Praetorian guard was around!

There is nothing wrong with a little commercialism so long as you reveal it to the reader and can look at yourself in the morning.

<Nice, sweet, non-accusatorial tone, heck this is a newsgroup not video>Chris does not seem to run this site like an infomercial cable channel. So far, every sponsor seems to be a class act that while competitive in price, excel in customer relations. Further, Chris reveals his affiliation with the sponsor usually within the same post where he recommends their services.

Oh! Would we get the the news media to do the same?!?!?

</Nice, sweet, non-accusatorial tone, heck this is a newsgroup not video>

So really what I am saying to you Genocide1, is if you have a commercial interest with your site, just tell everyone you do.

Nathan Gifford

My first suggestion would be to allow people to see what your site offers before they have to sign up.

<<<-- Originally posted by Justin Chin : My first suggestion would be to allow people to see what your site offers before they have to sign up. -->>>

AGREED!
That's really irritating.

Howdy from Texas,

I basically had to make a major decision when I started this thing, and that was to determine the revenue model which would reliably support it. Using Cliff Figallo's excellent resource, "Hosting Web Communities" (1998 Wiley Computer Publishing) as a guide, those choices were: patronage subsidizing, transaction commisions, paid subscriptions, paid admission events, advertizing and a few others. I chose a limited form of advertizing, the sponsorship model, because it seemed the least obtrusive and most rewarding for the community as a whole.

Some form of revenue model has to exist. Bandwidth is not free, server space is not free, and ultimately time is not free either. I have to eat and pay bills like everyone else. A person can easily go broke with the workload involved in running a website and online community without some form of revenue. You have to at least be able to break even, or you won't be doing it for very long.

The sponsorship concept involves a very limited number of advertizers with an even more limited number of banners. For instance, there are no graphic banners on the message boards. Anyway it goes beyond just running banner ads... it's an endorsement. Currently there are only six sponsors. Who they are, and my basic explanation as to how they're picked, is located at www.dvinfo.net/sponsors

Adam said: << there's... a fine line between genuine heartfelt recommendations and contractual recommendations >>

Indeed there is, but as I state clearly on my Sponsors page, my relationship with any sponsor is first and foremost a genuine heartfelt recommendation, and a contractual obligation only as a secondary matter which doesn't materialize until long afterwards. I can't begin to tell you how much money I've turned down from vendors wanting badly to be on the site, whom I just didn't feel comfortable with. Those few that I do work with, I've known personally for a very long time. Take Bob Jones of SkyCrane, for instance. Whenever I'm in Orange County or on the south side of L.A., I usually stay at his house. Or take Craig Berlin at Pro-Tape. I've been buying tape from him for over thirteen years, since I was an undergrad in film school at UT-Austin. That's how well I know all of these guys.

The other purpose that paid sponsorship serves is an answer to the single most common question I get: where to buy. Having these excellent vendors available to point people to, is insurance that the visitors here looking for advice on where to buy don't get ripped off. It's assurance that they'll be treated right by dealers whom I know and trust. And actually this extends beyond just the sponsors to other vendors whom I know and trust as well.

For instance, as I've said before, somewhere somebody posted about buying from Adorama. And that's okay because Barry Zilberschlag who owns Adorama is a friend of mine, I see him at every show and he's a great guy and we always get together to chat. Then there's Gary Bettan of Video Guys / Electronic Mail Box. You'll see him post his specials every so often. I know him well, he's a super guy and he's always welcome here. These guys are like the next ones on my list... I'll say, look, we're talking about you. It gets us that much closer to getting them onboard here officially. The point is that I know them personally though. And that's the first requirement. These site sponsors, I know where they live. I have their home phone numbers. It's that close of a relationship.

This model also provides a solid, reliable feedback platform for directly contacting a manufacturer. VariZoom, Hoodman USA, Videonics and Glidecam have all interacted directly with customers on my boards at one time or another. Plus, as an added benefit of paid sponsorship, I can become actively involved whenever neccessary to assist with mediation between a customer and a dealer or manufacturer. It's part of what the sponsor is paying for, and that's a service found only at a very few of the better online DV communities (which are linked from my Resource page at www.dvinfo.net/resources). Finally, there's the assurance that unknown or unscrupulous dealers are not permitted to spam the board trolling for newbies. Again, the most sensitive issue I face is "where to buy" and I take that issue very seriously. For myself and everybody else in the position of dispensing highly valued advice who understands and respects the responsibility of assisting folks with purchase decisions, we owe them the assurance of knowing their money is going in the right direction to the dealers who will best serve them. Sponsorship cultivates such a relationship, and helps it grow. Hope this helps,
and thanks to all who responded.

Thanks the response Chris.

I would also add that one shouldn't take the word of one person, but listen to the collective group on their opinions. This is what anyone should do in almost any situation. That's why I come here - because there are many people on this board that I trust.

I also can't trust someone who doesn't use their real name, give any information about themselves especially when they haven't spent any significant time on this board.

A group like this takes time to build. Chris Hurd has done the hard work to make it happen. I applaud and support Chris all the way. I am amazed that he's gone this far on so little.

I can't wait to buy him a beer when we finally meet.

Additionally, I probably owe, several people on this board a drink or two.

You better let me buy the first round, Justin, there are so many here to whom *I* owe a cold beer. This place wouldn't be what it is today without you and so many others like you. Many thanks,

I sort of sit in the middle on this one, and to be honest I don't lose any sleep on the topic of this conversation but I felt like replying. I too think this board is wonderful. I haven't found any board on the net anywhere near as good as this one. I'm a newbie and still haven't got my gear after several months of research but I still get answers to all the questions I ask here, no matter how trivial.

I understand that web sites costs money, that's just the way things are but I think I know what genocide was talking about. There have been threads that have been locked because people have talked about places to buy equipment where the people got good deals from, sometimes slightly better than the sponsors. (Not saying any of the sponsors might not have been able to match those prices). I must admit that I had a few paranoid thoughts of censorship when they were locked but I do on the otherhand understand where Chris is coming from even if I don't agree. My personal opinion is that sponsors should get the promos on this board (Chris and others do that regularly) but if people say a good place they got a good deal from I don't think a thread should be locked.

That said, this is Chris' board, and he runs it the way he wants to. If we don't like it, we shouldn't visit it - simple. I for one will NOT be going away, this board is far to valuable to me and the community and keeping vendor conversations down to the sponsors only does not, as I said earlier, make me lose any sleep.

Cheers
Aaron

I liken dvinfo.net to photo.net. Philip Greenspun created a community for photographers that was sans overzealous advertisers. He was diligent in trying to protect unsuspecting photographers from unscrupulous vendors. The photography world is plagued by the same thieves as the video world.

It is my opinion that Chris has done an excellent job in achieving the same thing. In fact if it was not for this board, I don't think I would have purchased my XL1s yet. My concern was dropping $4000.00+ dollars into an internet abyss, never to receive my camera. Also, thanks to this board I have found amazing deals on used equipment, saving large chunks of money buying from quality sellers. This is an added bonus.


Geocide1 - Another site would be great if it offered something new and different. There are ways for you to achieve this, but like any site and or forum they take time to develop.

Take a look at Keith Loh's new forum:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/DVDA/

You will find a collection of people talking about making movies DV style. He has taken a different path related to offering a DV site. As I mentioned, sites take on a personality based on the users.

I hope all of the suggestions/opinions offered here have helped.

Paul

Okeydokey. I see we are currently eight members at Film Exposure (I signed on to view the content). Heres my comment:

There are heaps of sites like this around the web. A very unspecified site. "Film", "Digital Video", "DVD" and "Everything else". That's a VERY broad view.

I've visited most DV forums in the past (been at it since '93). What makes Chris site so great is the total commitment to it and it's subject matter. The community here is a real goldmine. A lot of folks really work with DV/film on a daily basis and can make sound judgements based on production needs and facts. Going over to sites like Dv.com you're really shocked at the difference in knowledge between the two communitys. This is the pro site. Sites like Dv.com is for that guy who just bought himself a Digital8 and a home PC and want's to know the best way to edit last christmas footage. And often in the middle of discussing with someone nicknamed "KrackZkaterDude" or something like that you realize he is actually the senior sales rep for Canopus or Sonic Foundry. There is NONE of that in here.

Nothing wrong with amateurism but most forums are clogged with a type of question Chris (and all the moderators) manages to keep out thanks to a great commitment to the community.

I can't hold it against Chris that all this gold has to be financed in some way. I mean; hey! This site is still free!

Proud to be a member.

See, that's what I’m talking about... I like that I’m getting feedback on the format of the site, that's what I’m asking for. By the way, I’ll be turning off the forced Membership option asap. Thanks for the feedback. (I’m at work now)

Again, I'm NOT attacking this site in any personal way, I've been viewing threads for several months, from before i got my XL1s and i too find this site wonderful. I just have a bit of paranoia.

<Sites like Dv.com is for that guy who just bought himself a Digital8 and a home PC and want's to know the best way to edit last Christmas footage.>

Not True, I find the DV.com forum very very helpful because it's accessible to a wide range of people and problems can be answered in number fields. I can ask complicated questions like: the construction of transducer to what's “DV” and get a professional response. if you really want to know the people behind the forum visit http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies.jhtml?sid=1&fid=2&tid=3100229&start=51 (You may have to set up a Membership) or Visit http://www.dv.com/columns/ to see columns written by mostly forum moderators (hardly beginners these are the writers for DV mag which is a "pro" magaizine) Give'em your best shot and i bet they'll still have a solid answer for you.
I'm on that site several times a day and have found it very useful and full of professional opinions. True, it's not elitist, but more importantly should it be?

The site is in a alpha test. I'm still designing the actual page and as far as the forums section, the topics are very broad because at this beginning stage it doesn’t make since to have 20 topics that each have 1 post in them. That's too big too fast. I'll adjust the Topics as necessary.

Let me clarify that my site is not a threat to this site in any way, This site is predominantly about the XL1s while mine is about DV and Film. There's no need to feel threatened. I say this because it seems I’ve insulted some users by offering something new.

<There have been threads that have been locked because people have talked about places to buy equipment where the people got good deals from, sometimes slightly better than the sponsors. (Not saying any of the sponsors might not have been able to match those prices). I must admit that I had a few paranoid thoughts of censorship when they were locked but I do on the otherhand understand where Chris is coming from even if I don't agree. >

Thank you AaronKoolen for conferming that i'm not some nut that is making up things.

Please don't sling mud. I'm offering somthing new and i had no intention in offending anyone why i though somthing new should exist, but you know what they say "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

<A group like this takes time to build. Chris Hurd has done the hard work to make it happen. I applaud and support Chris all the way. I am amazed that he's gone this far on so little. >

True, it will take time and everything starts somewhere. Actually, its not doing too bad for only being in existance for 2 days, after all there's already a buzz around it. Anyway, I agree about Chris, I just hope to be as fortunate.

I too am proud to be a member, a member with new ideas willing to make them happen.

Thanks to the power of PCAnychere, You can now view the forums in guest mode (no membership required).

Sorry Justin Chin and Dylan Couper for the inconvience.

There's not much on there currently so throw me a bone and please post a message, question, opinion, somethin’.

Wow, that was really pathetic.

Adam, no problem. I just like to know what I'm getting into before I sign up.

I still think that to be successful, you should focus more. Either that or try to biggest forum going, and cover everything. You'd have to do some advertising, take sponsors, etc... I'd try to focus more instead.

Ok, i'll see what i can do... Do you have any suggestions for area's in the dv/film world that don't have a good forum currently?

Lighting

Lighting... hmm, good idea Ken, we may do that as well.

Regarding closed threads on these boards -- there are a grand total of five or six of them. Half of these involve the sensitive "where to buy" question, and as I've explained elsewhere, those threads were closed (nothing deleted) simply because I want the last word and final say on those subjects. That kind of hammer doesn't come down very often, and usually it's only in reference to "where to buy."

Out of more than 3,000 topics currently here on the DV Info Net Community, more than 99.98% of them are open for discussion. I wish my ISP had that kind of percentage as their uptime.

Adam, once your board approaches those kinds of numbers, on rare occasions you'll find yourself having to make decisions similar to my own about certain threads for one reason or another. Best of luck to you on that,

After a change of format (thanks to feedback from here and other forums) and tightening of focus, www.filmexposure.net is now running and waiting for you to post your work...Sort of a 24hour internet film festival site. It's very new so be kind, and show somthing you did off. It is a bandwidth intensive site so be prepared.

We're also looking for writers/moderators... E-mail if intrested.

That was cool how it appended message to this thread. Good one Chris! :)