http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/handycam/PRODUCTS/HDR-FX1/index.html

It's still cousumer model; will be out pro-sumer version later. (like PD)

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5118

Here is the link for the sony press release of the new camera.

Looks like we'll need a new camera forum, eh?

Is this camera (or it's Pro counterpart) going to support 24p?

Looks great!

I would assume that because it's part of the HDV standard that it would also record 720p and also playback my recordings from the HD1 when I upgrade! :)

Looks like the pricing is down a great deal from the original quote of $5000. $3700 for a three chip 1080i capable unit is unbelievable especially given the one chip 720p JVC is only $200 less!

The HDV specs call for both 720p and 1080i. Take a look here (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200307/03-0704E/)

Troy

No, according to the specs, you will be able to playback footage taken in 720p with the JVC, but this cam will only record in 1080i.

I like the looks of the swiveling 16:9 LCD.

So 1080i (1440x1080) means this cam is stricly interlaced which means no progressive scan 24p or 30p, correct?

Ok, nevermind, I see they have a faux 24p/30p and cine-like modes.

That's what I understand.

Whats a "a faux 24p/30p and cine-like modes."?
I really don't want to go back to interlaced video.

The cam looks great, but what do you think they are limiting by declaring it "consumer model"?

The audio is what's limited, from what I can tell. It records through a 1/8" unbalanced mini-jack! That's the biggest disappointment I see in it -- everything else looks quite positive.

24P/30P are not supported, but apparently it does some sort of in-camera simulation to deliver the look. I'm betting it'll look pretty good on standard-def TV. Keep in mind that if it shoots 1080, there's no progressive scan possible: there is no 1080p in the HDV spec. Progressive scan only happens in HDV at 30P (or 25P), and even then, only at the 720P resolution. There is no such thing as 1080/24P in HDV.

With that said, there's no such thing as 24P in DV either, yet Panasonic and Canon were able to do it. JVC has announced that their $20,000 2/3" shoulder-mount camera will be 1080/24P, so they'll probably implement it the same way as Panasonic and Canon have done in DV.

Very surprised at the low price! Looking forward to seeing if they actually do offer a pro model with real XLR connectors. But don't expect 24P, it's not going to happen with this camera.

> Whats a "a faux 24p/30p and cine-like modes."?
> I really don't want to go back to interlaced video.

They have to leave something for the "pro" version, don't you think? It's probably an in-camera deinterlacing algorithm. With luck, it might also turn of the vertical HPF usually present in interlaced video cameras and thus the result would be somewhat better than deinterlacing in post.

FRom http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5118

"And for ultimate control, the iris, gain, white balance, shutter speed and focus can also be adjusted manually. "

AND real F-STOP Markings!

Why can't JVC do this on their HDV cameras?

Well I guess JVC will lose market share to Sony in HDV products.

Sony will have a press hands-on session tomorrow, Wed.

But only Apple has announced editing support in Final Cut pro?

Where is Cine Frorm on this?

Any other vendors for PC editing of HDV with the Sony HDV cam?

The camera does not support 24p, but.....

One of the reasons the JVC camera sucked in terms of converting to 24p is because there is no easy way to convert 30p to 24, but if the rules for converting DV 60i to 24p apply to HDV as well, will it not be easier to convert HDV 60i to 24p?

I use vegas and there are many tutorials for doing this with DV.

I know this is speculation until we can actually get our hands on the camera, but......what do you think?

This is the annoucement CineForm has been waiting for. We have been working on supported this camera for sometime. Aspect HD has planned for 1440x1080 60i HDV for sometime, however there will be a free upgrade to Aspect HD and Connect HD to directly support the Sony camera in time for its arrival. Aspect HD will again be the highest performing HDV editing solution -- expect the performance gap between CineForm solutions and our competitors to increase.

Ed,

More than Apple has announced HDV support in the last few days. This Sony camera is creating the first major wave of HDV, clearly indicated by today's announcements from Adobe, Apple, Canopus and ULead. Everyone is going to be a player. CineForm will remain the leader for high performance software based HDV and HD production. Stay tuned for CineForm annoucements in the coming months.

Whoa...

But I'll wait for a pro version with good audio. Of course I need to make some cash with the HD10 first...

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Al Falaschi : but if the rules for converting DV 60i to 24p apply to HDV as well, will it not be easier to convert HDV 60i to 24p? -->>>
You don't need to: the camera does it internally. It offers a mode that simulates 24P and one that simulates 30P. I'm sure neither will be the resolution that you could get from true 24P and 30P, but hey, starting at 1440x1080 resolution, I'll bet the resulting 24P/30P conversions will look pretty good...

Interlaced is always easier to do transfers to 24P.

heath

I'm looking forward to the software upgrade.

> But I'll wait for a pro version with good audio.

Having been introduced to a Beachtek/XL1 combo a few days ago, and knowing a bit about what goes on with the audio with such short cables, I must say that if the AD and input circuitry are good, having unbalanced audio is not really a big deal. Note that I have a PDX10 with XLR inputs: t's just like having a built-in Beachtek of sorts, just more expensive ;-)

I haven't seen any mention of Apple supporting HDV yet, ie, they're still working on it. I even ran a software update on my G5 and nothing is available for FCP HD.

heath

Along with the announcement of the HDR-FX1, Apple Computer is announcing support for the HDV spec with their popular video editing program, Final Cut. "Native HDV support in future releases of Final Cut will enable our customers to create high quality HD content with affordable HDV cameras, including Sony's much anticipated HDR-FX1 camcorder," said Rob Schoeben, Apple's Vice President of Applications Marketing.

That's just Final Cut Pro HD. Can someone link to the part about Apple? Was that in the USA press release? I skimmed through it, so shame on me for not looking closer. <g>

heath

I think the HDV update is for Final Cut Pro HD but I could be mistaken.

The quote was from this link (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Announces-High-Definition1080i-HDR-FX1-First-3-CCD-HDV-Camcorder.htm).

ps-I just got an email back from DVFilm, a video-to-35mm film transfer house (and more) (www.dvfilm.com) and they say:

"Looks promising. 60i HD will convert well to 24 as long as you use 1/60
sec shutter speed."

I shoot all my HD10 stuff (at least from now on) in 1/60, except for some Hurricane Frances stuff where I set it to Auto.

heath

Announcing support and having support are always two different things. The significant quote from Apple "Native HDV support in future releases of Final Cut ..." The "future releases" sections means it is not done yet. The "native" part means it will be slow (native 1080i60 is much slower than native 720p30.) :)

Apple's own site is a little more generic in reference to HDV.

HDV Support Coming
Apple Computer is pleased to announce that it has joined the growing list of companies that are supporting the HDV format. HDV will be implemented in future versions of Apple products. Customers can begin using HDV with Final Cut Pro today through third party products such as Lumiere HDV and the Heuris Indie HD and Pro-Indie HD toolkits.

Thanks as always, David.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : ps-I just got an email back from DVFilm, a video-to-35mm film transfer house (and more) (www.dvfilm.com) and they say:

"Looks promising. 60i HD will convert well to 24 as long as you use 1/60
sec shutter speed." -->>>


It should be without loss of resolution as well, shouldn't it?

Well, until someone like DVFilm can get their hands on the FX1 and do some tests and transfers, there won't be a 100% answer.

heath

Any other vendors for PC editing of HDV with the Sony HDV cam?


Ulead Medastudio Pro
Avid Express Pro 4.5
Sony Vegas


From off the top. The HDV website lists more.

Ulead's press release said the Sony HDV plugin will be released at the end of October.

I wonder what editing package will be included, I'm betting a Vegas SE? Anyone else?

Troy

This is really exciting news!

However, just some clarifications (from my point of view) . . .

If the thing has a CCD with a pixel resolution of 960x1080, and the resulting resolution is 1440x1080, the pixels themselves must be 8:5 (width = 1.5 x height). That is the only math that makes sense. In other words, 960 x 1.5 = 1440. If the pixels were 16:9 (as Sony claims), then it would record at 1704x1080, and have to get rid of some of the extra horizontal resolution in order to record 1440x1080. This of course would kill their claim that the entire CCD is utilized (and would likely make the 3 lux rating impossible), so I am going to go with the assumption the pixel elements are 8:5 ratio (1.5:1), and the marketing people were just trying to say "non-square" or "rectangular" but "16:9" came out of their mouths :)

If it is true that they are using rectangular pixel elements, and none of the CCD is wasted, this is great news. That, combined with the 3 CCD's, is about the only way they can achieve that 3 lux rating.

Now, obviously 1440x1080 is not 16:9 (it is 4:3), so I assume to playback at 1920x1080/60i (1080i), it uses a rectangular pixel aspect ratio of 4:3 (1.3333x1) as well. Indeed, 1.333333 x 1440 = 1920.

Anyway, a true 1920x1080 would have been nice, but that probably requires 1/2" or 2/3" CCDs, which would put it way out of the $3,800.00 price range.

I imagine the pro version will allow you to record 720p, how they do that will be the question. They can either a) use less of each CCD, or b) use software to downsample the 1440x1080 to 1280x720. If they use the former technique the results will look better but you will lose your 3 lux rating, if they do the latter it will not look quite as good but you will keep your 3 lux rating.

Personally I wish they would have stuck with a native 1280x720 rectangular CCD, and just recorded at native 720p. Roughly the same cost but a lot less funny math going on. Besides, there aren't any TV's (projectors, rear projection TV's, or Plasmas) at a reasonable price that can reproduce a native 1080i image anyway, while nearly all of them can easily show a native 720p image. I also REALLY like working in progressive, I hate to go back to interlaced!

However, you can't have everything, and the manual controls and low light performance of this camera will make it a winner. I can't wait to see some hands on reviews.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyway, exciting news!

Ben

I'm guessing the HD10/HD1 will drop in price.

If Sony is releasing the "consumer" version, I wonder what the pro version will have? My friend speculates there won't be a 24p version because of the CineAlta, but who knows?! It was rumored the camera would be 4:3 but it's actually 16:9...

Which once again proves, wait until the official announcement! (And wait until we actually use the camera to see how awesome it is!)

heath

As a user of the HD10, one of the exciting features of this Sony HDV camera is the "expanded focus" feature.

This is a brilliant idea.

As many of you may know, focusing for HD on a 3" LCD is near impossible. Anyone who has used the HD10 knows this. This is simply due to the huge amount of downsampling necessary to show a 1920x1080 image (or 1280x720) on a 250,000 pixel LCD.

The "expanded focus" feature basically shows only part of the image (basically a 25% portion), but it shows it at near full resolution on the small LCD display. That means you will be able to see that portion of the image at near actual size.

Since most of the time you only need a small portion of the screen to focus anyway (such as someone's eyes, or the letters on a street sign, etc.), this is a great solution. I can actually perceive working without a field monitor now!

Thanks Sony, forgot all the bad things I said about you :)

Oh yeah, I'm sure the overall quality of the Sony LCD will be far superior to the JVC one anyway, which will help for determining color accuracy in the field. Not to bash JVC, but Sony has a history of great LCD display technology.

Ben

Has anybody done the math with the focal lengths? Will the optics go wider than the PD170/VX2100? It would be a shame to have to add a WA adapter.

just because the sony is 3CCD versus the 1 CCD of the JVC, you can bet that the picture will be better.
What you should read too, is the HDV mode require special DV tapes that should cost 18$ for one hours. That is a problem since the HDV is supposed to be fully compatible with DV, here it is not the case anymore , like SVHS was not with VHS or Hi8 with 8mm.

You use regular mini-dv tapes to shoot HDV, which the Sony says it will shoot on those, too. But, they're going to offer their own "HDV" tapes, that I'm sure will cost some cash...

heath

OK Sony releases the HDR FX1 in Oct. So how will JVC compete?

A Sony 3 chip camera for $3300 makes the 1 chip JVC HD10 seem a little expensive at current price.

Will JVC drop HD10 prices to compete? Or will JVC build a 3 chip camera at same price to compete?

I've been to JVC site but see know new info.

The form factor is excellent- I like the styling and button placement.....looks sorta like the DVC80.....I'm psyched already!

<<<--
Any other vendors for PC editing of HDV with the Sony HDV cam? -->>>

http://www.canopus.us/US/canopus/pr_sonyHD_camcorder.asp

I agree the design looks very sweeeet. Still really smashed my hopes with this 960x1080i CCDs' tho :( Buti spose i'll just plod along and wait till we see some footage from it. hmm

you gotta like the look of this camera, it looks sleek n sexy..


i cant wait for some clips..........(just wondering if my PC will be fast enough ! , might choke on the 1080i footage!)

I god i can see it comming >>>>>> HDR FX1 vs DVX100 vs XL2 !

Very interesting times ahead :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Anhar Miah : you gotta like the look of this camera, it looks sleek n sexy..


i cant wait for some clips..........(just wondering if my PC will be fast enough ! , might choke on the 1080i footage!)

I god i can see it comming >>>>>> HDR FX1 vs DVX100 vs XL2 !

Very interesting times ahead :) -->>>

It certainly looks interesting.....

I'm wondering how many of you have actually been able to play or edit (on PC or Mac) MPEG2 1080i footage? From my experiences with 1080i FTA captures, it's almost impossible to play back in any standard media player, especially if the bitrate is up. I have managed to edit 1080i streams in Vegas, and render to lower bitrate 720p with some success.

I'd assume that until software support is added to some of the standard PC/Mac player software the only real way to view the new Sony's 1080i output would be via the component outputs on a HDTV. Perhaps Sony will 'value add' with the software they offer with the cam - who knows!!

One things for sure; I'm itching to see one in action. I might just expand my HD camcorder collection with one!!!

Steve,

To be honest, no clue on capturing 1080i mpeg 2 ts video, since for now, we've only been able to capture 720p mpeg 2 ts video. Shouldn't be a problem, though...

heath

Apple will support HDV natively in FCP in the future releases and we are all looking forward to it.

It won't be for a while however. In the meantime, Lumiere HD will support HDV2 (1080i) from the new Sony cameras.

Steve,
You are correct the 1080i MPEG2TS editing will be a lot harder (require significantly more CPU) than the experience with editing MPEG data at 720p30 from the JVC camera. The Sony streams have 70% more image data at a higher bit-rate. If you are currently using a native MPEG editing for the JVC footage the editing performance will be approximately halved for the new Sony camera.

I think that the HDR-FX1 is an exciting product however, I am even more excited by the pro version and JVCs response which I wouldn't be surprised if it included 24p (a wild guess).

Besides the fact that the HD1 and the HD10U will most likely drop in price considerably.

Competition really benefits us, the consumers.

The only bad news is for Canon and its XL2...yesterdays technology. I suspect that DV cameras will dissapear from video store shelves by mid 2006.

There is no way around HD.

OK- so let's see if I've got this straight......Sony's new HDV cam will need MORE hard drive space (when compared to the JVC HD format) and require, at the least, a Mac G5 to edit smoothly.....and we can assume a perfomance hit (?) while using FCP HD which WILL be able to edit natively- but just not at this PRESENT moment? ...........thankfully, Lumiere HD WILL support the Sony at the current time.....which is great....

HD is here but I can't help but feel we're about to open up a new can of worms with HD and it's derivitives...........adios DV, welcome HDV!

The consumer pioneers of HDV are on these forums- I guess we're the "chosen" ones!

The relentless pursuit of image quality.........Let's the games begin.......

Pinnacle's Liquid Edition 6 recommends dual 3.0 GHZ for 1080i HDV editing ;) (last page)

Brochure (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/WebVideo/liquideditionproversion6/English(US)/doc/LiquidConsumerBroch_US-FINAL_07Sep2004.pdf?Langue_ID=7&loc=lMen1655)