I plan on buying a digital recorder soon and need some advice. I'm looking at either the Edirol R44 or Zoom H4n. I shoot mainly events, from school plays to weddings. Key points that's are important to me is: quick access to volume controls, easy monitoring, good pre-amps, "great" fully automatic level control, (limiter, compressor?) for when I can't monitor audio myself. I have been leaning towards the R44 from day one however the H4n looks very attractive and the recently introduced Zoom R16 digital mixer (44.1) looks pretty sweet too. I guess my real question is which unit would make a better professional field recorder? Is the price of the R44 justified? I've read a substantial amount of reviews on both units, I'd like to hear from people that use both, I don't want to spend $950 (R44) when I can get by with $400 (H4n).

Anyone...?

The Edirol is a more professional recorder. 4 XLR mic inputs with decent preamps, switchable Phantom pwr., S/PDIF & RCA line in/out. ect. Front end level pot attenuation w/limiters. In addition it's more robust and would probably last much longer than the Zoom if it's gonna get banged around on location.
It's more than twice the price of the H4n, but you get what you pay for.

The Edirol is a more professional recorder. 4 XLR mic inputs with decent preamps, switchable Phantom pwr., S/PDIF & RCA line in/out. ect. Front end level pot attenuation w/limiters. In addition it's more robust and would probably last much longer than the Zoom if it's gonna get banged around on location.
It's more than twice the price of the H4n, but you get what you pay for.

I agree with most of this. However, the H4N has switchable Phantom power and limiters as well.

Like Rick said, if you can afford the Edirol, get it, but if you're going that route, might as well spend the money on a tascam then.

I have the H4N and for what you seem to need, I think it'll do nicely, especially since the H4N has front end monitoring, Limiter or Compressor & automatic level.

personally, as an audio guy, I'd NEVER EVER use automatic level control due to the fact it will sound unnatural in most situations.

Anyways, good luck!

Sean I haven't considered Tascam yet, why would you advice it over the R44? I totally agree with you on the automatic controls however situations arrive that require the feature and having something that does it well is always a plus.

Sean I haven't considered Tascam yet, why would you advice it over the R44? I totally agree with you on the automatic controls however situations arrive that require the feature and having something that does it well is always a plus.

One big plus for the Tascam is that it accepts composite video or blackburst from the camera and will slave its sample clock to it so that you don't get audio and video that drift out sync over long takes.

To clarifiy, The Edirol has front-end limiters and individual Phantom power switches. The H4s limiters are digital. Phamtom pwr. is global, which may or may not be an issue for some. The H4N is a nice recorder though. The Tascam is great for sure, having to ability to 'gen. lock', if you can live with two tracks and probably more robust than the Edirol.

In some situations the 10-30sec pre record of the R44 can be priceless.
For in the field bag use the R44 is good but thr H4n is unusable. You can not ride the levels smoothly too on the H4n. The H4n has better built in mics that can be handy.

T

Thanks for everyone's input, always appreciated! I will be going with the R44, my conscience is soothed :)

Kind of off topic question here,

Does the H4n have the same drifting problems as the H4 for long form video?

I can't find specs of H4N anywhere. Noise? THD?

A consideration for any recorder to be used for audio for video is whether it supports recording in uncompressed PCM (wave) files at 48kHz.

A quick update: I placed my order for the Zoom H4n today at the reduced of $299 it's a steal! With the money I saved I bought two quality microphones and a few extras. I think Edirol should read their market better, a price reduction on the R44 would have swayed my purchase. The Zoom offers very close competition at a fraction of the price, I could not justify the price vs real world value.

Does the H4n have the same drifting problems as the H4 for long form video?

I haven't had any drifting problems but I'm mostly running short (~10 minute) video clips. On the one occasion where I synced to a continuous hour there didn't appear to be any drift.

I really like the H4n except for one big annoyance - you can't set the levels of the two XLR inputs independently, there's a single level setting which applies to both. I don't know what they were thinking.

Evan that is very annoying, for the price though I guess it's not a deal breaker. I want to put a mixer between my inputs and the H4n, I want to move away from fixing audio in post as it's extremely time consuming, hopefully a good portable mixer & signal processor will do the job.

Evan that is very annoying, for the price though I guess it's not a deal breaker. I want to put a mixer between my inputs and the H4n, I want to move away from fixing audio in post as it's extremely time consuming, hopefully a good portable mixer & signal processor will do the job.

Be very, VERY reluctant about applying processing as you shoot. Limiting yes, maybe a low pass filter or a touch of equalization or de-ess, but save the rest for post. If you later decide to try something else or if the processed audio doesn't really 'work' with the picture or the rest of the audio like you thought it would, there's no way you can unprocess it. Far better to record as clean and pristine as possible while you're shooting and make the majority of your processing decisions in post where a: you can consider them at your leisure; b: you can experiment with different approaches; and c: you can undo and start over if you end up with something sounding like a dog's breakfast. As for being time consuming, you can have it fast or you can have it good .... but it's almost never that you can have it both ways at once.

Can try a Sound Devices MixPre and some small 2 track digital recorder like a MicroTrack or H4N. Should run you around 950.00...... MixPre might be small, but it's nice sounding 2 track mixer with some great functionality built in.

Agree to an extent although ..

Be very, VERY reluctant about applying processing as you shoot. Limiting yes, maybe a low pass filter or a touch of equalization or de-ess, but save the rest for post.



As for being time consuming, you can have it fast or you can have it good .... but it's almost never that you can have it both ways at once.

Eh what rest? That's about all there is aint it?

I find in order to stand out one does need to be both at once and more sometimes.

...As for being time consuming, you can have it fast or you can have it good .... but it's almost never that you can have it both ways at once.
...I find in order to stand out one does need to be both at once and more sometimes.
A client usually wants you to be fast, good, and inexpensive. In the days that I was not so much of a one-man-band, when working with a larger team, we used to talk about giving the client two of these - which usually provoked an interesting discussion within the team: Which two were valued highest by this client or that client?

That team / large media production company was relatively expensive in our market. So, we frequently were called to be fast and good. But we typically had good budgets to make that happen, and the resources of a larger organization sure help.

An important issue that hasn't been mentioned yet is portability. The Zoom H4n wins here because you can put it right on the camera. Unless you do a wireless setup. Then I guess any recorder can be used.

Courier dropped off my H4n over the weekend...

It's a awesome tool for musicians with built in tools like a tuner and metronome however one thing it's not is a great 4CH audio recorder. Overall I'm very impressed with the H4n it's everything I needed the audio quality is brilliant and the pre-amps are super quiet. The built in compressor/limiter does a wonderful job at cutting down clipping.

The Bad: The built in stereo mics are completely rubbish! The noise levels on those mics are unacceptable with constant hissing audible throughout recordings. As a 4CH recorder the H4n is useless but as a 2CH recorder coupled with proper condenser microphones that cost roughly as much as the unit the H4n is brilliant. When I ordered the H4n I was hoping for 4 channel recorder, what I got is a great 2 channel recorder. I can't see myself ever using the build in microphones for any given event they are that bad.

I don't feel that the R44 & H4n should be classified is the same class. The R44 is a proper 4CH recorder the H4n is not. I am very happy with my purchase though, the H4n is exactly what I "needed".

Nic, what's your assessment of the auto leveling?

Brian the auto leveling is no good, the unit will set levels at the beginning of a recording session and won't change them again. Does anyone know if the Edirol R44 offers constant auto leveling?

Brian the auto leveling is no good, the unit will set levels at the beginning of a recording session and won't change them again. Does anyone know if the Edirol R44 offers constant auto leveling?

Auto leveling is almost always an invitation to disaster. Dynamic range is part of the performance, be it speech or music. Some things should be soft, some thing loud. A recorder that constantly adjusts to keep everything at the same level destroys that distinction. In addition, auto gain control is almost always subject to "pumping" where it boosts the gain looking for faint sounds and then gets hit with a blast when normal sound resumes.

Steve I am well aware of this but the bottom line is that when you don't have someone to monitor audio all you have is auto leveling, manual leveling without a operator is even worse. I work in a constantly changing environment when filming I don't have time to adjust audio levels and when I try in most cases I get clipped audio because I couldn't respond fast enough, clipped audio is useless. When I'm in a controlled environment I go manual, auto has it's place in the field.

Auto leveling is almost always an invitation to disaster. Dynamic range is part of the performance, be it speech or music. Some things should be soft, some thing loud. A recorder that constantly adjusts to keep everything at the same level destroys that distinction. In addition, auto gain control is almost always subject to "pumping" where it boosts the gain looking for faint sounds and then gets hit with a blast when normal sound resumes.

Is there a metric that measures dynamic range in an audio device? For example, do some recorders give more headroom than others? I've had clipping issues at concerts -- music goes soft then a crescendo. I'm hoping a dedicated recorder like Zoom will provide that extra cushion without having to use auto leveling.

I'm shooting a concert next week (14th) will let you know how the limiter performed.

...For example, do some recorders give more headroom than others? I've had clipping issues at concerts -- music goes soft then a crescendo...
Assuming good enough mic preamps, 24-bit recording really helps with this. In practice, you can set your recorder to manual, adjust recording gain for crescendo levels, and find that you have much more latitude for the soft passages - they haven't dissappeared into the digital muck as much as with 16-bit.

Of course when you pull up those soft passages in post you may find some other stuff you don't like about mic self-noise, cable noise, preamp hiss, whatever. Regardless, 24-bit really does help with this issue!

Assuming good enough mic preamps,

Thanks Seth, okay, 24 bit and you're also inferring that better preamps increase headroom? Didn't know that, thought they eliminated hiss and gave more sensitivity.

Thanks Seth, okay, 24 bit and you're also inferring that better preamps increase headroom? Didn't know that, thought they eliminated hiss and gave more sensitivity.
24-bit - yes. Although, more accurately, 24-bit means that you're increasing the usability of the material recorded down below -30db or so. Effectively, this is increasing the usable dynamic range - not exactly increasing headroom, but very useful when you're concerned with limited headroom.

You're reducing gain instead of increasing headroom, but 24-bit gives more usable resolution for those quiet passages.

Better preamps - what we're looking for here is reduced hiss. Hiss tends to be masked by program where you have good recording levels. Now that we're looking for good audio below -30db, since we're recording in 24-bit and reducing recording gain, we'll quickly find out if our preamps are up to the task!

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, limiting can be used to good effect as well. Not that you want all the peaks limited (better to use a good compressor for this task, reducing the dynamic range of the source), but, that if an unexpected high peak comes along it won't be clipped.

With all of the above technique, adding limiting means that you can be more aggressive in the gain setting, knowing that unexpected peaks won't clip.

All this stuff is a matter of degree, and practice makes perfect!

I've had clipping issues at concerts -- music goes soft then a crescendo. I'm hoping a dedicated recorder like Zoom will provide that extra cushion without having to use auto leveling.

Brain I used the Zoom H4n for a school concert this week and the "Concert" limiter setting performed brilliantly! There was a lot of soft dialog mixed with shouting, etc. I'm starting to understand Steve's hate for automatic level control, constant volume mixed with a good limiter works better. I'm very impressed with the H4n however I'm selling it to get the R-44 for the 4 channels.

Brain I used the Zoom H4n for a school concert this week and the "Concert" limiter setting performed brilliantly! There was a lot of soft dialog mixed with shouting, etc. I'm starting to understand Steve's hate for automatic level control, constant volume mixed with a good limiter works better. I'm very impressed with the H4n however I'm selling it to get the R-44 for the 4 channels.

I also returned my Zoom for the Tascam DR100. I like the separate level control. It's only an additional $30.

i have the zoom h4n and i've been using it for a while. for the most part it's great, but i have had issues. for one thing, when using NiMH AA batteries, they always read halfway empty - even when they are freshly charged. it will record for several hours like this. the problem is I can't see when they are really getting low. this is after changing the menu setting so the h4n knows that i have NiMH batteries in.

also i have tried a setup with one mic on phantom power and a ew100 g3 receiver in the other XLR. i get a tone popping in every second or two and the screen dims - almost like it doesn't have enough power to send out to both mics. if i unplug either mic it works fine.

the h4n is a great unit for what it is - but i think it's still a cheap consumer tool - i wouldn't even rate it prosumer. unfortunately it's the closest thing to pro in the price range - and it's a good small size, but i am hoping to have better luck with my r44

"i get a tone popping in every second or two and the screen dims - almost like it doesn't have enough power to send out to both mics. if i unplug either mic it works fine.

I'm not familiar with your term 'tone popping', however the unbalanced output of the G3 could be partially shorting out the phantom power. Typically in an unbalanced configuration, XLR pins 1&3 are tied to ground/shield. Pins 2 and 3 carry the voltage.

Hello, I've used both units and have written a review of the R44, complete with samples and a comparison to high-end Great River and Benchmark preamps:

Oade Modded Edirol R-44 Review (http://artslaureate.com/Blog/OadeEdirolR44Review.htm)

In short, the main practical differences are:

-- Four channels instead of two.
-- Much quieter preamps.
-- Ability to handle line level.

All these makes the R44 MUCH more useful. Want to run a stereo pair of mics plus a two spots or lavs? Can't be done on an H4. Want to record from two lavs while also recording a shotgun? Can't be done on an H4. Want to record line level from the PA or DJ? Can't be done with the H4, at least not with out spending time setting/padding the level. Want a hiss-free recording of a recital? Can't be done with the H4.

The H4 is really easy to use and is a fair price. But if you are doing any sort of filming on a regular basis, you will find uses for the two extra channels and you will be thankful for the quiet preamps every time you turn it up.

Good luck!

Unfortunately I found this thread just now.
The H4n has horribly bad THD when recording through the XLRs: Field recorder harmonics (http://www.martin-doppelbauer.de/fieldrecorder/distortions.html). The R44 plays in a different league. Choosing between the two really is a no brainer...