Anyone have any recommendations for books on writing for the screen? TV/shorts/features/whatever, doesn't matter precisely, I'm just trying to find out if anyone's read anything that opened them up to new ways of thinking about storylines and plot mechanics.

Writing's a pain in the ass, and it'd be nice if I could find something that focuses on creation of a good story, and ways to overcome blocks, get out of ruts, things like that. Anyone feel me on this?

Don't really care if it has all that formatting stuff.

Also, not really looking for something that talks to much (or at all, really) about PSAs, commercials, News, that kind of stuff. I want to focus on fictional narrative storytelling. Guess that leaves out documentaries as well. Thanks.

Josh,

I own a shelf full of screenwriting books, and without a doubt the two that I find most usefull, and that I recommend to my students.

"How to write a movie in 21 days" by Vikki King

"The Writers Journey" by Christopher Vogler

I also like WRITERS JOURNEY -- I recommend GOOD SCRIPT, BAD SCRIPT as a good bathroom reader and STORY is good for the art of storytelling -- have both the book and the audiotape versions and, although abridged, love popping in the audiotape on those long drives.

My favorite writing book is still Developing Story Ideas (my post/my review) (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15987). Joseph Campbell's interviews on DVD are also highly recommended. I rented them off Netflix. And the articles on WordPlayer.com (http://www.wordplayer.com/) are a fun read.

But a good writing partner is still worth their weight in gold, better than any book - if you can stomach it.

It's fashionable to poo poo McKee's "Story" but I think it's worth reading once if you know that you will leave it behind and come up with your own 'rules'. McKee likes to tell you this is the way it is but it is just one man's rules.

Thanks guys, lots of good ideas.

Who's this McKee guy, and what's so bad about his book?


By the way, I literally dreamed I had an XL2 last night (I was, for some reason, allowed to borrow it, free of charge, from a local rental house). Could I be more of a dork? I was in the midst of trying to hook it up to my monitor to check how accurate the color reproduction was when I awoke.

Josh,

Dude, you need to get out more.

Richard

(Just left Houston for sunny Northern California... loving it.)

Ok guys, I'm soliciting more recommendations. I've looked at the reviews/synposes of these book on Amazon, and I'm not sure they're quite what I'm searching for.

Seger's "Making a Good Script Great" (or whatever it's called) looked pretty good, but I'm just not sure.

Maybe I don't need a book, and just need to sit down and think hard.

Here's my situation, though, if the elaboration helps with any future recommendations: I have a story, and it's quite short. The beginning is cemented, the ending fairly certain, the in-between hazy. That's where my trouble is. Now I KNOW I could bang it out, but I want it to be good, so what I'm really searching for is a book that doesn't focus on three-act structure, and things of that nature, but really gets down into helping the writer "think outside the box" (sorry, it fits), finding new angles to attack problems, creative ways to structure plot, more interesting, and perhaps unusual ways to tell a story. Also, pretend that I'm working on a simple, silly, stupid, fluffy little comedic (hopefully!) piece, and that well-defined, fleshed out characters really don't matter.

Sorry if this is a reiteration of what in said in the first post, and further sorry if anyone's offended by pickiness. I still appreciate the advice though, but as I said, looking through the descriptions of the books, and the reviews, they don't sound like exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks.

Josh,

No offense, but most of those books are exactly what you are looking for. You said you have a beginning and an end, but no middle.

Yeah, that's everyones problem. It's called the second act. You might not think you want to write in a three act structure, but you are already thinking in one. So best to buckle down and master it.

You are also asking for nuts and bolts answers to "thinking outside the box" - kind of like asking for a blueprint for something that's never been blueprinted... follow me?

Honestly, BTU's are the only way to get a script completed. (Butt Time Units) Bang your script out, as bad as it seems.

Then go back and re-write it.

That's how it's done. "Don't get it right, get it written" is still the best advice I ever got. It's much easier and effective to fix/pollish a script you have in hand, then make every line perfect as you go along. "The writers Journey" is a great book about storytelling. Period. It outlines the hero's journey and how it is used in the structure of filmmaking. And before you look for a new way to do it, understand that even "non sequential" storytelling uses the same elements, it just mixes them up a bit. (Pulp Fiction has a beginning, middle and end... they are just out of the ordinary order.)

Seriously though, you have a basic grasp of film syntax, as most of us do. Write your story the way it feels. THEN take any one of these excellent books, and use it as a toolkit to go back and look at what you have written, to try and find the rough spots - the places you know aren't quite right and finish them off.

Good luck

Alright, then *burp*. Humble pie, eaten, digested, and excreted.

Hey, didn't mean to force feed you anything! We all get stuck in the second act. Only way out... is through.

Alright, thanks. I'll look through those suggestions, and see which seems the "rightest."

Has anyone read that "Making a Good Script Great?"

Richard's right. Throw a stick down any street and you'll hit six people with "beginnings and ends". It's the simplest and most trivial part of writing that requires no more than two sentences and only the faintest glimmer of creativity. The middle "2nd act" is what separates writers from posers.

Books may offer some inspiration and a bit of guidance. Robert McKee has become a pretty wealthy man on that promise. But, like any other artistic endeavor, it's no substitute for turning off the music, secluding yourself and trying to just do it. Also like other artistic endeavors, the best instruction and inspiration comes from studying others' work. In this case, reading good writing (not necessarily watching movies) and seeing good live theater.

Truly good, imaginative writers are scarcer than Saddam's wmd's, a situation reflected in so much of today's entertainment industry. Forget about telling yourself that it's a "pain in the ass". Just sit down on that noun and take an earnest swing at writing. Even if you eventually decide it's not your cup of tea the effort will teach you to appreciate (and depreciate) the work of others.

A friend of mine told me never to let anyone know about this boodk. Less who know about it the better.

Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade William Froug.

I think thats the title. But I'm moving so I've packed it away.

But it the best book.

Josh, McKee basically says this, screenwriters have forgotten what makes a good story good and he spends several chapters analyzing what a story is, what characters are, why stories may be structured a certain way, how to make the audience care about your story. He uses a few examples from movies over and over again.

It is fashionable to poo-poo him because he has become a guru. He has these seminars (which are his bread and butter) where young screenwriters will faun over him. If you ever see 'Adaptation', this is in that movie.

I found "Story" a good read but like all books you take what you like and discard the rest. Don't be slavish to anything you read. The way his book is structured - as an argument - he expects you to agree with him all the way through. I would recommend it if you have never really sat down to consider what makes a good story good (or in fact, what makes a story at all).

I've read a lot of amateur scripts (including one of my own that I've shelved) and many of them never get beyond:

A bunch of stuff happens. There's good guys and bad guys. The good guys win.

A story is a story because all of the actions have a justification that matters to the audience. A story is a story because there are characters who matter to the audience. Stories have weight because the 'stuff that happens' have consequence to the audience.

McKee criticizes modern screenwriters because they don't know what makes a story good, they are just aping good films that have been made before so when they try replicating it, they can only make copies or when they go beyond, they fail because they haven't examined what makes people care about their story.

Of course, I agree, but not with all of his solutions.

You can do a search in this forum for McKee and find other posts about the book.

Ok, I ordered "tricks of the trade" just now. . .got good reviews, and talks about breaking from formula. I know it won't change might life, but maybe it'll open up some new neural pathways (again, huge dork).

Thanks. I'll work on sitting on that noun and banging it out.

Writing the Character-Centered Screenplay
by Andrew Horton

take a look at this one... nice and interesting book. different approach than Syd Field's and Vogler's...

translated to my language this year, and I found it a very good reading...recommended

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520221656/

Here is a site with some examples of pro scripts, sorry if this is a repost. http://home.online.no/~bhundlan/scripts/

Heh.. heavily weighted towards genre, I would say ! :)

Hi Josh,

I've read Story, Making a Good Script Great, and a few other 'highly recommended' screenwriting books, and here's what I can say.

You will disagree with a LOT of what the writers say are 'necessary' or 'rules' (at least I did), BUT I think it is absolutely essential that you read all these books at least once (you don't have to buy them, try to find them in a library or borrow), because once you read a lot of opinions and viewpoints on the topic, you'll start coming up with your own system and standards on what's a 'good' story, a 'good' script, so on and so on. And that's the most important thing. But just being aware of what's out there, always helps.

One thing though, some of them are really theoretical and talk for ages on things that *could* be summarised in a few sentences. However, they reiterate and drone on so that the message gets to you, and although some of it might be boring, just get through it and you'll be able to pick things that are useful from every one.

Dennis

I agree with Dennis. You'll disagree a lot with a lot of what these books say. Personally, I don't care for half of the guru books. Take what you like from them and throw the other half away.

What I mean by that is that certain things have to happen by a certain page.

Just like in Foug's books(a guy who actually produced and wrote for many years before turning to teaching).

He states in I think Ticks of the Trade that a young student who he was very impressed with. Came up to him one day and said he was quiting his class and giving up writing.

Fough asked why. Well, the student said that he had just read one of these guru books. The guru said something should be stated on such and such page. On the student's script it ended a page before.

So the student rewrote it and when he was finished. The thing that was suppose to happen came not on the page it was suppose to but on the page after that.

So Foug asked to read the pages. He said they were the funniest and best pages that this student had ever written.

That's when Foug decide not to use some of these guru books in his own classes. Yes there is sort of a formula. But in the end if the reader or viewer is enjoying himself. He won't care if it ends a half page to soon or a half page to late.

Now I can't remember the name of this student. But he has gone to write several major summer releases.

The best advice I got was from Academy Award Winning writer/director David Ward.

He said "F**k the studio, f**k the producer, f**the director, f**k your friends and write for yourself. Write what you want to write. Then after you sell it then and only then write what someone else wants."

That freed up my writing so much because I wasn't writing for myself. I was writing for what I thought someone wanted. I was listening to too many outside forces.

I have this favorite website I will share with you:

http://www.bookcloseouts.com/default.asp?N=0&rid=bcbcbc

It is hard to shop because of the nature of what they sell (2 of this 6 of that, 100 of something else- when its gone its gone) , but just go thru all the different "entertainment" sections (biography, file, other) You have to dig thru each title in alpha sequence, but you will find some great nuggets there. I did this last night and it took me about 30 minutes. But I bought a whole box of books for about $50. I saw at least a dozen screenwriting books, bios on many great directors, etc. Some were as cheap as $1.99.

I dont tell too many people about it, because I have had books that I ordered/wanted that got shipped out from under me (not often though).

Josh asked: Has anyone read that "Making a Good Script Great?"

I am reading it right now, and I like it very much. I had seen it on the "must-read" list of a lot of people and authors I respect. I think it is actually the perfect book for where you describe that you are in your process...

Give it a shot, and good luck.

Thanks, guys. I read Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade, made notes on it, put those notes onto a typed page, and never looked at 'em again. It just doesn't help that much, for me, I guess. "What does this character want in each scene?" I don't know! Who cares? When it happens for me, it happens, and when it doesn't, it doesn't. There's no easy solution to getting stuck, which is what I was looking for.

//It just doesn't help that much, for me, I guess. "What does this character want in each scene?" I don't know! Who cares?//

Yeesh, Josh. Don't say that!

Sorry. . .I does what I does. When it works, it works. Sorry if it sounds bad. The response to my several short films has generally been positive, so I guess I'm doing something right. I just don't think about that stuff, in those terms.

Josh,

From reading between the lines of your post, you seem to have an inate, "organic" grasp of story and structure. At least good enough to hold up over a short film.

You've also expressed the difficulties you have had in getting stuck in the middle of a long form script, looking for books and advice to getting unstuck.

And finally, you've expressed your dismay at the choices of books offered, and their inability to help you get unstuck... with a comment about "Not thinking about that stuff in those terms".

Maybe you should stick with shorts? This seems to be what you are happiest with, and most comfortable doing? Less leg work, less Butt Time Units, less research and development. Certainly less expensive in terms of time money and resources to produce.

Nothing wrong with being a short filmmaker. (I have no idea how tall you are.) Plenty of good writers only write short stories.

Yes, that would be nice, but so far as I've seen, there's no money or prestige or advancement in shorts. One day, gentlemen, one day. . .there will be a feature. . .maybe.

All I'm saying is, if I followed the advice/principles outlined in the book I read, I'd actually get more confused-- I get hung up on all that stuff ("What is this character's goal" etc.) I know it sound weird, but weird be I.

My advice is to get "The Screenwriter's Bible" by David Trottier to learn proper formatting, then just sit down and write it.

After that, if it's any good, send it in to Fields or McKee for analysis and then rework it from there.

I think a common affliction--me included--is worrying over all the details too much in advance, and then you simply never start or never finish. The main thing is just DO IT. Write it and let it flow. Then, you'll have plenty of time to do the clean up.

"Money, prestige, advancement... a jedhi craves not these things."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Josh, just about everyone here has recommended a number of good books. Each with a good solid approach for ironing out difficulties. The bottom line is you have to write a complete script. THEN RE-WRITE it, over and over again. Then, if you hope to sell it to someone, THEY will have you re-write it or pay someone else to.

If you are stuck in a scene, then write something down like "Here's where the hero finds out the girl he's in love with is really his long lost sister" and then start writing the next scene in your head. Put down place holders and outlines and sluglines for the scenes that are a bit hazy, and keep going. Put the outlines down on index cards and shuffle them around on your desk... all of these methods work. When you get to "FADE OUT" go back and start re-writing. THIS is where the books come in, to help you 'fix' the scenes that aren't quite right, to give you a starting point for looking at WHY the scene is not working.

"Don't get it right, get it written"

Still the best advice I ever got.

Josh, the meaning behind such stock questions like "what does the character want?" is to urge the screenwriter to make each scene raise the stakes for the viewer. That is, to make the viewer care what is happening on the scene and care all the way to the end of the film. With the long play feature form, you are asking the viewer to commit, over 90 minutes or more, to caring about the character(s) and sticking with the story.

When you think about films with very poor characterization most of the time the problem is because what the character does A) doesn't make sense or B) doesn't have any importance for the viewer.

Many films that are not successful are because they makers don't care enough about their characters to make them believable. The situations may be familiar but what the characters do is either cliched, insufficiently motivated or even counter to the logic of the story.

In a short film, these things don't really matter because the arc of the character is again short. In that case you can usually rely on situations and on the audience filling in a lot of the information for themselves. Over the course of a feature you have to put a lot more work into it.

Alright, guys, thanks. I appreciate it.