Is it true or just another rumor floating around. If it is true does that mean in a year or so Canon would offer an software upgrade. I'm not a tech guru so I'm not sure if this is possible or how it would work?

I read this on another site and haven't heard anymore about it.

Here is a little bit of insider info:
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2 JVC 720p HDV 3-chip cameras will be introduced this Fall. The more expensive one may not be available until December. They will have excellent image quality, nearly on the same level as the Varicam. varicam records 960x720 pixels and is compressed 6.5:1. The JVC's will record 1280x720 pixels with 17:1 compression but a lot more efficient codec.
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Sony will introduce their prosumer HDV camera early next year.
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Canon XL2 CCD block is HDV ready. The pixel shift technology allows HD resolution. The new 20x zoom will be good enough for the new HDV camera.

I am almost 100% sure that it is not true. But you should post a link to support this rumor. Does it come from another forum? From a generally well informed person?

Please don't bother with the link; it's complete nonsense. Perhaps it's suitable for our "Area 51" rumors forum, but that's it. If there is an HDV version of the XL2 coming in the near future, it will most likely have a completely new CCD block -- and many other internal components -- and I seriously doubt it will be "software upgradeable."

The only hint of truth to the rumors above is that Sony may well have their 3CCD HDV piece ready by the first of the year.

Let's concentrate on facts and matters at hand, please... our Area 51 board is where all of the speculative ponderings go. Many thanks,

Gary McClurg wrote:
>>>>>>>>Is it true or just another rumor floating around.

Hi Gary,

If you are asking whether or not the actual CCD's used in the XL2 are capable of generating a 720P signal which could be encoded into a highly compressed HDV stream, the answer would be: It doesn't matter. Canon designed the XL2 to be a very high detail, high resolution Standard Definition DV camcorder (using miniDV tape). The output of the XL2 is indeed that - and remarkably noise-free and void of any blocking, banding or dithering.

>>>>>>>>If it is true does that mean in a year or so Canon would offer an software upgrade.

No. That is not part of the plan for the duration of the life cycle of the XL2. The XL2 is Standard Definition DV. I'm hoping that this is clear now.

>>>>>>>>I'm not a tech guru so I'm not sure if this is possible or how it would work?

Simple answer: Shoot with the XL2 and uprez your final color corrected edit in post.

Just curious, what types of projects have you completed so far?

- don

Gee Don because I ask a question you wonder what type of projects I've done.

Look I'm just trying to find out things. That's how you learn new things.

I didn't no I had to prove myelf to you unless I'm reading your post wrong.

Hi Gary,

You are indeed reading my post wrong and taking my answer the wrong way. I am sincerely curious about what type of projects you have completed or worked on so far. It's always nice to know what people are doing these days, especially people who are interested in the cameras I work with which includes Canon, Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc...

To clarify, I was hoping to find out more about what types of cameras you have used and what types of CODECS and workflows you have utilized. It wasn't meant to be taken personally. This is what interests me - how people are working their cameras and the type of NLE's and post production hardware and software they are using to get their stories told and if they are pleased with the final result.

I'm also very curious if those who are so locked into HDV have actually taken the time to look at the quality of the format beyond just the frame size or resolution. One thing that fascinates me is the number of people who focus on whether a camera has 8-bit DSP with 256 color gradation detail or 12-bit DSP with 4096 color gradation detail but then turn around and completely not notice the high degree of dithering, banding, bleeding and noise prevalent in the some of the CODECS and recording formats available (not talking about DVCPro100 or the other professional HD formats which do not exhibit these anomalies). Sort of like someone taking a pill that makes them taller but neglects to heed the warnings of the side effects involved.

I'm just hoping that people will take the time to learn what dithering, banding, blocking, bleeding and noise are, what causes these image artifacts and the post production problems which ultimately arise when we are faced with too much of any of these anomalies.

In any case, it's always helpful to hear input from everyone and that input from everyone and anyone is always welcome here!

- don

Don, sorry about taking your reply wrong.

I've line produced or co-produced (for hire) four small features. One The Legend of Cyrin' Ryan should finally hit the US market on DVD I think next month. The others have been shown in Europe, Asia etc. But never the US.

On the last two films used the same DP in upstate New York who has his own Arri 35mm pacakge. I think he can also get the Panasonic SDX 900 now also.

The features were all cut on Avid Film Composers. I cut one of the movies and I guess also Cryin' Ryan. Since the director an actress thought the picture was locked but it wasn't I guess since we made over 500 changes after letting the editor go.

I've produced or directed a total of seven music videos all on Arri 16mm cameras. Actually I'll take that back one was with a Canon Scoopic (can't think how to spell it).

Would love to shoot Panavision but never been able to.

I have a Dual 2gig G-5 running FCP and other programs which I don't have time to play with.

I'm looking at getting either the XL2 or DVX to shoot my own feature on. My DP friend just brought the DVX for a video shoot so I can use it.

But I'm going to be moving to the sticks. Trying to buy a farm in Missouri but the people keep changing their minds about selling me a place.

So looking to get my own equipment and shoot my own film. Since it seems like I always have bad luck finding the money. I always get crazy answers like when you get the money we'll produce for you that sort of thing.

So I'm trying to find out as much as possible before I buy. Because I won't be able to run up to LA in an hour like I can now to get equipment.

And the real estate agent I'm working with used to do Christian videos. She thinks we can start doing commericals for the stations back there because the ones airing now she says suck.

Gary

Thanks for the detailed answer, Gary! Around here we're always curious about each other's backgrounds. I've known Don for several years now and he is always genuinely interested in the person at the other end of the conversation.

Scoopic is indeed the correct spelling for that 16mm film camera. I would love to have one and have been salivating over finding one for a very long time. It's just not your common Ebay item as you know. Thanks again,

Just to add a bit of Area 51 rumouring to this. The CCD chips
are larger (vertically) then what is being used (at this moment)
according to Canon's own claims.

See this XL2 watchdog page (http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxl2/articles/article06.php)

You can see on the page above that the full resolution of the
chips is 960 x 720. So in theory you have the vertical
height for a form of HD. However the horizontal will only produce
this for a 4:3 frame which isn't true HD. You would need an
anamorphic lens to get the full 1280 x 720. Then ofcourse you
would also need a way to store it (at least HDV) which might
be possible if they put in powerful enough DSP chips.

So for this to work (assuming the hardware supports it) you would need:

1) new firmware

2) an anamorphic lens or adapter

So my guess would be: no, this won't happen. In theory it
could probably be done if the hardware is flexible enough.

How long before someone mods it to work? :)

May be I think In my view...Canon may be releasing along with sony after the release of sony hdv camcorder. Let me tell you why I read some reviews from the canon employees and managers , asked for the question... regarding HD version.. the answer from them is " ITS SECRET" . So also to be in competition definitely they have to release very soon. So also canon expressed that this is the last canon sd camera. They dont have to worry any more....since they definetly working on HD formats. So also the canon is the member of HD Constorium. May be why not!
Please NO fireworks....

vamshi

The varicam is HDPRO, not HDV. It compresses at 3.3 to 1 for 8bit 4:2:2 720p at 100mbs, the established spec btw. JVC was supposed to have something similar, but hasn't released anything yet. (spec set several years ago by both Panasonic and JVC)

I'm not really looking forward to HDV, we have the horsepower to handle 4:2:2 video, I wish they would create affordable cams to let us do so.

Don,
In your reply to Gary McClurg, you suggested that he "shoot on the XL-2 and "uprez" it in post." I'm not aware of anything like Photoshop's plug -in, Genuine Fractals, that's available for video.
Isn't it still "garbage in, garbage out"? How do you improve your resolution in post?

Steve,

You can use a program called S-Spline 2 it uprez's one frame at a time. I hear it does a good job but to go to HD it'd take a week of rendering if I remember right.

http://www.trulyphotomagic.com/shortcut/customer/content.php

Hopefully the link will work so you can just click on it.

Gary

That's a week of rendering for a feature project.

I'm not looking forward to HDV either. That's all we need--another format. We've already got Sony's HD and Panasonic's HD..now a "prosumer" HD designed to make DV obsolete so everybody will rush out and buy new stuff, and the ratrace starts all over again.
And, regardless of how totally transparent the format may be, the quality of the picture is still going to depend on the camera. Will Sony's HDVcam that looks like a fat PD150, with 1/3" chips be as good as a DSR570 with 2/3" chips and a real lens?

I still feel it might come from Canon. Since they don't have any top of the line cameras. The XL1s was it (now XL2).

Sony and Panasonic sell cameras well over the $70,000 (HD models) price range without lens. Why would they sell a cheaper camera that does the same thing for $5,000 or even $10,000.

Unless the numbers selling the DVX200 (dream HD camera) or the new Sony HDV (needs to be 24p) adds up to more profits than selling do the big boys.

Example, at total of a 100 DVX200's and Sony HDV 24p at a $1,000 profit equals a 100 grand vs. 5 Sony HD's and 5 Varicams at $5,000 equals $50,000.

But then you have to throw in all the decks, monitors, switchers, etc. into that number and I think we still loose.

Heard another rumor in Jan at some show Canon will introduce a HDV camera. But they'd be shooting themselves in the foot four months later a newer camera comes out thats better and it's the same price or just a few grand more.

Sorry about the typos. I guess I need to wake up.

On Canon my guess it'll be three years following the same pattern that they always do about an upgrade.

The $5,000 Sony HDV cam won't do the same thing as the real HD cams. It's HDV. Different format, different camera, different chips, different everything. Comparing the yet-to-be-released HDV camera to Sony's HD cameras would be like comparing a PD170 to a Digibeta camera. Totally different markets. But I'd bet there's about as much money in the consumer market as the professional--otherwise why would they do it? Maybe even more money in consumer stuff.

I know comparing a HDV to an HD camera is not the same thing.

But what I was saying is for example why would Panasonic make the new DVX200 with interchangeable lens, etc which is what everyone wants.

Because if you could get it say for 10 grand, its HDV (or even I think somone said could it be DVC50HD, not sure if that's the right format name), 16x9, interchangeable, records to a hard drive or something other than DV tape. Then would people buy the SDX 900 for 26 grand when its standard depth? If its a better camera, yes but if the cheaper one is better, no.

As the market goes. I've been a producer for hire on four features.

For myself. I'm tired of chasing money to make my own films or having deals fall apart because of egos because the first time writer who wants to produce his script can't seem to get it through his head that you tell him his script needs to be rewritten to fix up all the lose ends they get insulted (this has happen twice this year on two projects).

Then when they send the script out to an actors agent (an actor they know) they can't understand why it was rejected. You try and tell them story is number one. You can make a bad movie from a great script but you can't make a great movie from a bad or even weak script.

But these guys always seem to come up with the money. Sometimes I'd wish they mentor me on that end of it. How they can do it with no credits, etc., oh well. If I knew their secret on that I'd pay them to learn it.

Maybe what I wrote above and next sounds like sour grapes yes in a way maybe it is or I just keep having bad luck. But often I don't get the credit I should get. Editing two of the four films, one uncredited,

Two of the directors I've worked for have done second films I didn't get hired they thought they could do it on their own. The company who put the money wonders what happen was it a second film jinx.

When I show my work they always reply nice work you do great stuff, including the four music videos I've directed. But in the long run on the features end its always the feeling line producers are a dime a dozen or they read my script and they love it and they come back and say well when you raise the money I'll produce it for you. It drives me crazy.

So after that little bit of crying about my troubles.

I'm looking for something that I can afford and go out and make my own films. I know how to make it look like it cost more than it does.

I just bought the DVX100A. Had a shoot coming and couldn't wait for the Canon. By the end of the year the DVX will pay for itself on some small shoots. So if something comes next early next year I could get something new.

I'd just want to get the most for my money I can. I know I can shoot 35 like before. But the odds of it going to the big screen or small. So I'd rather spend the money on actors who will sell the film. So that after each film I can keep moving up the steps to the big studio deal. Which almost happen but just another case of bad luck for me.

Sorry about the crying.

So what color space does HDV work in? I was on the phone with one of the guys at ZOTZ (one of our sponsors) and he was telling me that they have a device for capturing DV via SDI which ups it into a 4:2:2 color space. Who needs HDV?

Gee I forgot about this thread. I was hoping it'd die.

But would it go out through... I must be getting old. Is that through the sdk or what is the gizmo that you can hook up so you can match two or more xl's and even share settings.

Is that how it goes out?

Gary, I am building the perfect camera for you 1080P 24fps and no compression at all 4:4:4 it will be amazing..drop me a mail if you want to stay informed

oolsen1@ec.rr.com

I have uprezzed ftg from a DVX100A to HD Cam and honestly, it looks great. Obviously if we inspect it under a microscope, the imperfections are there but to the average viewers' eyes, no problem. Especially by the time it has been recompressed for broadcast.

Evan,

Speaking of imperfections, might I suggest that you read the technology article on the bottom of the BBC NEWS site, for this date: Sunday, 24 October, 2K4.

A most interesting use of a computer to enhanse the Star Wars movies released lately, by removing artifacts, and, sharpening it up better than the original.