I read one article written by a cameraman in Iraq who used a PD150 for most things. He kept it wrapped in plastic and never opened it unless inside out of the blowing sand. He didn't have any problems, but people who didn't properly care for their gear under those conditions did have trouble. I would go with the PD150 or 170 also for what you're talking about, because it is a bit more rugged than the others and shoots DVCAM. Even so, you still need to care for it properly under all the different conditions you describe.
The main problem in climbing is going to be bashing the camera into rocks and things like that, so I would keep it in a well padded backpack or Portabrace bag. The hot steamy rainforest will probably be the biggest challenge, and you might want to use some of those dessicant packs in your bag, as well as a rain cover. For cold weather, the biggest issue is taking the camera inside or outside from cold to warm and vice versa. You can get condensation that will cause the camera to shut itself down automatically till it's dry. When I go inside from being out in the cold, I'll open the camera, take the tape out, and let them sit for awhile before shooting, till the temperature is equalized. You may need extra batteries in cold weather, too.

I really like the PD150/170 but for climbing, I think their form-factor is just too big and too clumsy.

I'd go for a 900 (first choice) or PDX10 (if the light is going to be OK) because of their small size. I would tear a PD150 up if I were climbing with it. And it is really hard to hold steady in any kind of wind.

Another camera that I really like but is now obsolete was made by Sony about 6-7 years ago. Called the PD-1, it was a DVCam format camera sized just about the same size as the PC110 I have now. Either one of those cameras act very rugged because of their small size. I cannot tell you how many times my PC110 has been dropped inside its padded case. A nylon from Case-Logic a little smaller than a lunch-box.

The PD-1s have survived 7 years of use by students at the local community college. I've mounted one on a G-scale flatcar and had it pushed all over a backyard train layout, getting thoroughly whacked by bushes during the ordeal.

Did I mention that a zip-lock baggie will hold one of these cameras?

The PC110 is my #1 choice when I'm riding with the police during the day.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : I really like the PD150/170 but for climbing, I think their form-factor is just too big and too clumsy.

I'd go for a 900 (first choice) or PDX10 (if the light is going to be OK) because of their small size. I would tear a PD150 up if I were climbing with it. And it is really hard to hold steady in any kind of wind.

Another camera that I really like but is now obsolete was made by Sony about 6-7 years ago. Called the PD-1, it was a DVCam format camera sized just about the same size as the PC110 I have now. Either one of those cameras act very rugged because of their small size. I cannot tell you how many times my PC110 has been dropped inside its padded case. A nylon from Case-Logic a little smaller than a lunch-box.

The PD-1s have survived 7 years of use by students at the local community college. I've mounted one on a G-scale flatcar and had it pushed all over a backyard train layout, getting thoroughly whacked by bushes during the ordeal.

Did I mention that a zip-lock baggie will hold one of these cameras?

The PC110 is my #1 choice when I'm riding with the police during the day. -

Oh, and I can buy 2-3 of the little cameras for one PD150. The little cameras can also be multi-megapixel digital still cameras and have night-shot.

Multi-megapixel stills aren't that good (some of them don't even have enough pixels and resize the image to get more megapixels!!!). Low light on a lot of the consumer cams isn't going to be anywhere close to a VX2000/PD150 or VX2100/PD170 but they can be workable. Nightshot has limited range and turns everything... green. You can change that in post to black and white.

A small camera could be a good idea though. You could even carry a backup, and any digital still camera.

I'm looking for a camera that can tolerate heavy duty (such as mountain climbing (shaky), asia forest (hot), winter snowing (cold) etc.). XL1s probably a bad choice for this purpose since it needs good care and it's sensitive. PD150 is a good choice I think. How about DVX100 and VX2000?From what I've read, Sony prosumer cams have a bit more tolerance when it comes to fuctioning in extreme weather conditions compared with Panasonics. All-weather housing, Zip-lock or Saran Wrap will help to keep the dirt out, keep it rain-free and warm, but humidity is another story.

Thanks guys for sharing all useful and at the same time interesting experience. I've been taking my JVC DVM1 around the world since Jurassic Park the movie (8-9 years ago?)...and yes, one of the major reason I bought this camera is because of the movie -- "they are shooting in forest with dinosaurs with this camera!", haha! It's a good idea to use smaller camera, but low light is also an issue. Looks like Sony has made more effort to make their camera a little more rocky.

hi. i'm interested in purchasing a mini dv camcorder and need help deciding which one to get.

will be shooting video art and short films.

i'll make a list of things which are and aren't important:

ONBOARD MIC: if the mic is just so-so, i'll live with it
MANUAL/AUTOMATIC CONTROL: very important the camera has manual and automatic control over focus, zoom, iris and shutter speed.
PICTURE QUALITY: very important, but i realize my budget won't allow me to hit the top notch cameras.
SPECIAL EFFECTS / DATE AND TIME: no need for them.
SIZE AND WEIGHT: flexible. picture quality and the control issue go first.
LOW LIGHT PERFORMANCE: i rarely use lighting equiptment, so a camera which performs well under low light conditions, definately presents a plus. but again, quality (horizontal lines) and control are first priority.

BUDGET: $500

if you have any qustions for me, please don't hesitate to ask.

thank you very much.
adihead

$500USD? (you live in Israel is what your profile says) It's not much for a camcorder.

Not sure what your options are since you live in Israel. You can buy used to save some money.

Audio: Nearly all on-board mics suck a lot. If you need to record dialogue or whatever then you might be better off with an external mic like the MS907 ($80 at B&H). You should try out mics before you buy, but that mic shouldn't be hard to get your hands on.

Low light: All 1CCD cameras aren't that great in low light.

As for which old cameras are good, check out dvfreak.com's buyers guide. It has recommendations for old cameras. Some of the recommendations may be questionable so double check on sites like epinions.com and the user forums at camcorderinfo.com and at this site.

Low light: All 1CCD cameras aren't that great in low light.

I've seen great low light from inexpensive single CCD cams like the Panasonic PV-DV852 and especially the JVC GR-DV3000.

Not sure about Israel, but B&H had the Panasonic DV852 for $569 earlier this month and I've seen several DV3000s on eBay.

Adi, in Israel you use PAL cams.

USA/Canada uses NTSC cams.

$500US won't get you a lot in way of a PAL cam you describe. However, I'm sure this fellow may find you something used, if you ask him:

yowch@yahoo.com - Yow Cheong Hoe

thanks everyone. i know $500 isn't much. i already own a sony pd150, which i am very happy with and cost me much more. this additional camera is actually for a friend who is more into stills photography, but is interested in making her first step into video photography. she has know idea where to start and i thought i might help her out by posting her question here. thanks again.

In the U.S. it seems the best deals on cheap camcorders are the Panasonics. I don't know about PAL versions, but you might check out Panasonic at B&H. I think you get more for your money than with the equivalent Sony or Canon.

B&H has the Canon Optura 10 for 499.95. Probably the best camcorder you'll find for $500US but that's a NTSC camcorder.

If you get an idea what cam you want, go to
B&H's PAL camera pages (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=1918) and see if they sell it. Might get a better deal.

Aaron

I'm a film-maker that has been working with SVHSC for awhile, so I know my way around cameras.

I've decided to go digital but I don't know what camera to get.

I'm definitly getting a Sony, but which one? I have 2 days to decide while my brother is in England so he can get one a little cheaper then here.

I really have my eye on the TRV950, but I think that's a little too expensive, I know that one I'll defintily get isn HC18, but is this just consumer trash that wont be good for doing freelance video work (small-time band music videos, skateboarding videos) and serious film-making?

I can't find any specs on this cam, does it has manual controsl and mic-in or is it really a bad choice?

Any other reasonably priced, good models that can be reccommended??

Go to www.bhphotovideo.com and you can find the specs.
You might also look to see if they still are selling the VX2000. The VX2100 is out, but several stores still have the VX2000 in stock, and it's the best deal on the market, in my opinion, for quality and price.

If cost is a worry, look at the Panasonic MX500. The price should be down because it's going to be replaced with the GS400 in a few weeks. But if you can afford it, the TRV950 is a slightly better choice, if widescreen isn't one of your needs. An even better choice would be the PDX10, for widescreen and XLRs. Canon's GL2 in another good choice---I can't recall what the PAL version is called.

For a quick spec check of these cams, go here:

http://www.grandeye.com.hk/etx/900/index.html

Thanks guys...

How is the Panasonic 3CCD NVGS120B for 699 pounds? It has a low lux level as well... Is it a good cam? Has everything I need.

Is it better to have a large inch CCD or not? The Panasonic has 3 1/6 inch's and the Sony TRV950 has 1/4.7. Is this Panasonic a good choie?

You see, price is a big thing because I'm also aiming on getting a $1300 PC

to make up for my:

Celeron 1.7GHZ
256 Megs Ram
20 Gig HD
Windows 98

If I got a bigger HD, would this PC be sufficient for video editing?

I was aiming for a

P4 3.2GHZ
Gig Ram
500GB HHD
Geforce FX5950 Ultra for high end gaming and editing.

I would get that Panasonic MX500, then. I can't answer your other questions. I suggest posting that on the PC editing forum.

If I were you I would try to get along with S-VHS and rent if you need digital for the next few months, because *everything* is about to change with HDV.

I need a PAL cam, and on the panasonic.co.uk page, there's no MX models, only the NVGS120B which is 3CCD and the info seems to be growing on me, seems as good as the TRV950 for much cheaper... Please refer to my second, edited post.

It would be called the NV-MX500E

It's still being sold - last year's model. It's a 3-chip, with frame mode and a Leica lens. It also has good widescreen. Check here for info and further informative links:

http://www.dvfreak.com/pana_mx5.htm

I'm going to need something available in a shop so my brother can pick it up in a few days... Is the NVGS120B good or also, contrived consumer rubbish?

You see, price is a big thing because I'm also aiming on getting a $1300 PC
P4 3.2GHZ
Gig Ram
500GB HHD
Geforce FX5950 Ultra for high end gaming and editing.

You could get a pretty comparable Dell for very cheap when they have a hot deal going. I remember a while back you could get:
P3.0"C"
512MB RAM
hard drive
ATI 9800pro
cheap CRT monitor
for $900

You could probably get some sort of Dell which has something like:
Pentium 3.0C (800FSB, hyperthreading)
1024MB RAM - (if they don't have quadruple memory, ebay off the sticks and get a new pair from crucial.com or newegg.com)
ATI 9800pro (slightly better than the GeForces, especially for next generation games like HL2)
no monitor hopefully (makes it a better deal)
throw in your own hard drives (wait for hot deals) - Dells are limited to 2 internals though, so you'll have to go firewire or jury rig something for more. 250GB may be enough?

check hot deals sites like gotapex.com, xpbargains.com, etc. A barebones Dell can be cheaper than whatever DIY system you can build.

Camera
You might want to go for a camera with XLR inputs if you can afford it, like the Panasonic DVC80 or Sony PD100a (old model, newer one is PDX10). If you want good sound all the good equipment uses XLR connectors and getting good quality sound will take a few hundred extra. Those cameras will have good circuitry too (technically better, better S/N ratio and frequency response). But you may not need that if going for TV/video. Those cameras are a lot more expensive though!

The NVGS120B? It's a newer version of the GS70. There's some first impressions by Allan about this cam on the MX Forum. The MX500 is way better, but then it will cost a tad more.

Yeah... Like 600 pounds more :)

I'm 16 years old, doing some freelance work to raise a budget for NeverDead Productions (www.never-dead.cjb.net) movies.

I don't need such a great camera, DV, mic-in, 3CCD should be good enough.

I'm eventually aiming for a VX2100. The TRV950 would also be nice, but that's too expensive and this panasonic is 3CCD so it should be decent?

Is there a difference in quality between different CCDs all do all 3CCD cams look the same quality wise? (and do all 1CCD Cams look the same?)

Aha... Sorry for the double post :P

the NVGS120 as the same as the PVGS120, not the GS70... The 120 is 699 pounds/dollars and the GS200 is 999 pounds/dollars, and the GS70 (I can only find it on the US website) is also 999 dollars, but I assusme it's 999 pounds as well...

Do any of you know of major differences between the GS70, 120 and 200? on the Panasonic Comparison, most of the differences between he 120 and 200

are No Vs N/A
never No for one and Yes for the other.

They all don't look the same. To my eyes anyways.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?tt=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww4.big.or.jp%2F%257Ea_haru%2Findex.html&lp=ja_en
see a whole bunch of frame grabs from various cameras in the japanese market (they have different model numbers sometimes).

The GS120 and GS200 look very similar and very similar to the older GS70. If you go to that "grandeye" link I provided, you will see pictures and specs of all of these 3 cams.

Which is the best single CCD camera under 750$ range?

It should have very good picture quality. Will not be shooting in very low lights. But mostly indoor during day time too. Will not be using tripod.

Thanks

Are you buying a PAL cam in India? $750 US Dollars? Maybe the Sony TRV38?

No I am not buying it in India. But yes, it should be PAL. Yes USD.

I believe Panasonics come with a better international warranty, but I'd take a look at that TRV38. You get quite a bit for the money with that cam. Here's a good site that has consumer cam reviews:

http://www.dvspot.com

How about SONY TRV70? Though it is around 775USD.

That's a good cam also, but for more money. Maybe just shoot for a 3-chip?

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : That's a good cam also, but for more money. Maybe just shoot for a 3-chip? -->>>


Is there a PAL version of the Panasonic PV-GS70? It's a 3-chipper at only $700 -- 3 CCDs means maybe better colors, but will the 1/6" chips have worse low-light performance than the single 1/4" CCD in, say, my $300 PV-DV53? Something to ask...

B&H has the NTSC version of the PVGS70 here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=246&shs=PV-GS70&ci=1&ac=&Submit.x=22&Submit.y= (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=246&shs=PV-GS70&ci=1&ac=&Submit.x=22&Submit.y=9)

And regarding lowlight: indoor light -- what may seem like normal lighting -- can still be "low-light" to a camcorder. I shot some footage of a band playing live at a radio station recently -- the room seemed fairly normally lit, maybe a skosh dim, but I had to have both of my cameras' gains maxed out in order to even approach proper exposure. I was using a DVC80 and the DV53; the DVC80 at +12dB gain looks a little grainy, but still pretty good. The DV53's maxed out image was still fairly dark (darker than the DVC80) and very grainy and pixelated. So a room that may seem "normally lit" may not cut it for video. (By the way, I also shot an outdoor birthday party -- on a very sunny day -- with the DV53 and I must say I was very happy with this $300 camera's performance; of course, many cheap DV cams will look great if you've got a lot of light...)

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : That's a good cam also, but for more money. Maybe just shoot for a 3-chip? -->>>

For only $250 more for a used Gl1. I'd certainly consider putting in some overtime to make the step up.

I'm looking for a DV camcorder for shooting watersport videos for DVD (kitesurf, windsurf, surf,...) and other extreme sports events. I'm willing to pay <=2000USD
Optical zoom is pretty important to be able to shoot from the beach, but shoots will be taken from the water as well.
GL2 looks like a good camcorder (zoom x20, EWA marine underwater bag).
DVC30 (zoom 1.6) could also be nice.
Any recommandations ?

You've found out the long zoom cams in your price range, good eye.
I would go for the DVC30. Smart looking, well stocked cam.
I don't know how third party support of this cam is coming along...
Those bags are cam specific?

I am ready to buy a camera but there are now more options. XL-1S, a JVC HD cam, or a Panasonic 24p cam? I use my school's XL-1s all the time, so I know how to use that and know what it can do. Plus I have the all the stuff edit with it. I am unsure if that stuff changes when I change formats. Some insight would be nice. I will be using he cam all the time. Contract work, like wedding videos, commercials, as well as indie films, short and feature. So thats why I am on the line so to speak. As for money, I would like to stay below $4500. Some insight would be nice.

Clint,

I'd wait till after NAB. Several new models are due to be announced. You could either save significantly on todays cams OR find a new HD that may fit your budget.

If you need a cam now for weddings etc, perhaps look at the JVC DV300 (good price), the DVC80 or the PD170 from B&H.

Ok, well maybe the question I am asking is what format I should go with. DV, 24p, or HDV?

24P like from a DVX100/A? That's a miniDV NTSC cam.

Re: "Contract work, like wedding videos, commercials, as well as indie films, short and feature. So thats why I am on the line so to speak."

Any of the 3 cams I mentioned should be good for these.

your right, my bad. I'm just lost.

Hey guys,

I'm looking for a cheap, but still good, 1CCD DV camcorder around $300 or prefferrably less. 1.) Is this possible? 2.) What's the best camcorder in this range? 3.) What do you think of buying a consumer camcorder in this range?

Thanks!

Dan

Dan, they just aren't very good at that price-point. I think you need to consider $500 as the bottom starting point unless the $300 unit is a closeout. Note that this is just my opinion.

You could buy used to get more out of your money. If going with eBay, check out the how not to get scammed threads. Are you going to buy used?

For $300, you're going to end up with a consumer camera that will have noticeably less quality than pro cameras. However, depend on your needs, the quality you get can be more than enough. You really need to tell us what you're trying to do. Find a 'good' camcorder doesn't help when every person's definition of a good camcorder is different depending on their needs and tastes. As far as needs go some people want small cameras and others want big professional-looking ones. So what do you need to do?

I'll ask the same question as Glenn: "What do you want to do with your camera?"

I've shot some outdoor footage (nice, clear, sunny day) with my 1-CCD, $300 Panasonic DV53 that looks great. When I first looked at the video, I thought, "Who needs a 3 chipper?"

But then I took my 3 chipper and the DV53 to a radio station to shoot a band's live performance. It was slightly dim, indoor lighting -- it didn't seem too dark, but I had to crank up the gain on both cameras. 3 chipper (DVC80) on full gain looked pretty good; The DV53's footage looked horrible -- it was blocky and grainy, and worse yet, it was still significantly darker than the DVC80 footage.

But I don't regret getting the DV53. I got it so the wife and I could have a cheap camera around to play with, so we could videotape the pets and friends and whatnot w/out having to pull out the 3-chipper. Great for fun, but not recommended if you want to, say, make money producing videos...

Also, there's a guy over on the dv.com forums ("dummy"-something?) who has shot some shorts using a DV52 (the previous model to the 53, 'natch) and they don't look too bad. Not mind-blowing, but OK.

From my POV, even a $300 miniDV cam looks better than many consumer analogue cams (VHS, etc) ever did, especially in good light.

Hey, thanks for the quick replies!

I will be using the camera for very general purposes; it won't be to make money, it will just be to make home-made videos for fun and to record having fun with friends. (I am a college student). I am a "point-and-shooter." Naturally, there will be a wide range of indoor, outdoor, and a share of relatively dim lighting situations.

My main concern in the camera is that it is cheap, but 'good' as in not-crap.... is that possible? Basically the best I can get for that amount. The price point is more important than the features. I would prefer to not buy used, unless I will have to.

Do you have any experience or knowledge of one of the original DV camcorders - the Sony TRV103 Digital8 camcorder? My friend has one of those and the quality/low-light recording has been just fine for my tastes. That camera is four years old now. I am guessing that a new camera today, even the cheaper ones, would have quality equal to or better than that? If that is the case, than that level of quality is just fine with me.

Hope this helps paint a picture, and thanks so much for the help already!

Dan