The reason for the wealth of s/h SD ex - studio/ broadcast cameras is the governments push to get the networks to ramp up to HD (not that the networks are happy about it).

And some cracking deals no doubt are available. And some cracking cameras to boot. In addition there is probably a warehouse full of ancillary stuff to actually deal with the footage also going spare.

If I was in your shoes, I would buy the best s/h 16:9 SD cam you can and gear to run it and go do. There is no way on the planet that Aus is going to go HD in the near future (by which I mean 100% HD widescreen). You could have a ball for the next 3 - 4 years shooting stuff on gear that originally cost 10 - 15 - 20 times what you're going to pay for it, and some of that footage will be magic!

If you go the HD route now, there is no delivery system, the editing is somewhat chaotic and HDV IS NOT the best HD solution on the planet. HD still has a great deal of growing to do and there is still a lot of life in the 'ol SD system yet.

HOWEVER - take note that that equipment has/ is used by guys who have been shooting with the same/ similar gear for 10 - 15 years and are absolute experts at getting the best video out of them, no matter what.

The people who are shooting HDV are, by definition, newbies to the HDV game and as such you cannot compare the O/P from one medium to the other quite so easily.

If you are a complete newbie, SD is easier, in that it is far more forgiving, but will still show up total amateurism. HD makes it stand out like a sore thumb and smacks you over the head for your troubles.

As for your final question - forget the medium, think about your dedication to making them look profesional. Nothing in a box will ever replace the dedication of a good camerman/ director etc etc etc.

In short - if you're good, the film will be good. If you're crap - well, do the math!

Cheers,


Chris

The reason the Betacam stuff generally looks better will be because of the crew and expertise behind it. Also, Betacam has never been a consumer format, so anyone working with it generally has had money behind the project, meaning both experience, equipment and crew beyond just the camera - something a lot of prosumer shooters are lacking (having spent all their money on just buying a camera and editing system and not having the mindset to just hire the gear they need each shoot.).

Quality image s about the shooter and lighting way more than it is about the camera. Good ancillaries (matteboxes/filters), good lenses, good support gear, a good workflow is all more important than the pixel count 99% of the time (especially with the internet becoming a viable and major distribution platform - where you are not limited to a single broadcast standard).

Those were both great responses and I wanted to add that a used Beta SP camcorder will be pretty rugged and will also have a nice industrial-grade lens. In combination with the larger CCDs this can get you shallower DOF and a bigger-looking, more cinematic image than a small prosumer camera (provided of course you use it skillfully).

Yeah, terrific answers. Thanks guys. I'm definitely going to take a look at a few of these used broadcast cameras.

One caveat I would add to what's been said above, on reflection, is that you would be wise to get the help of someone seriously "in the know" about this gear and the workflow required to use it before parting with any cash.

As with anything s/h, if you don't know what to look for, you aren't going to see it till it's too late. Additionally, again as with anything declared commercially "redundant", it will be the most heavilly used, possibly damaged kit that makes the hit list first. Repairs costs on this sort of stuff can be astronomical (which can possibly explain some of that "great deal").

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's the way to go in your circumstance, but "Caveat Emptor" (?) rules OK!

Cheers,


Chris

I have been asked to tape, edit and produce a DVD for a motorcycle drag racing series this summer. This would be my first paying job. Not a lot of money, but enough to take it serious. They were not happy with the pro who did last years, so I know I need to do a better job than he did.

But I have a camera decision problem...

History:
I was asked to do this by the series promoters because they, and the racers, like the personal video I shot last year. Video I edited and placed on my web site for family, friends and fellow racers to view. In fact I compiled a nice DVD of the season and sold every copy I made (30+) at the season's end banquet. (Made a little cash)

Problem:
I shot everything last year on a little Panasonic GS250, which has very nice resolution and decent 16:9, which I prefer.
But, over the winter I bought a Canon GL2 which I love, I have more control over the picture, etc., etc. I also have the Century 16:9 adapter.
I think I can get a nicer picture with the GL2, but I know the resolution of the GL2 isn't quite as good as the GS250.

I need to decide which camera will be better for this job.
I want to use the more profesional camera, but I don't want complaints that the picture wasn't as clear as last year.

I'm going to talk to the client and try to feel out what he is looking for, but beyond that I'm not sure which way to go.

(I don't have a lot of time to try both cameras as I also race the series)

Sorry for the long post and thanks for any thoughts,
Bob T.

I'd use both cameras. Use the 16x9 adapter on the GL2, and give the GS250 to another racer to get some different shots. Give him simple instructions: avoid zooming, hold steady for at least five seconds, don't talk, get as close as you can. The footage from the GS250 could make for real useful B-roll...sometimes you get surprisingly good footage from someone who knows nothing about videography.

As far as the picture quality goes, my guess is that many of the people will not be able to tell the difference between the footage from the two cams - especially once it's converted to DVD format. You sold them on your previous presentation due to your camera angles and editing, not the pixel-by-pixel technicalities of the picture.

Just make sure you get the Panny back from the fellow racer. ;)

I'd go with the GL2. The image is just as good or better than the 250 IMO, and it has twice the zoom. Which means you can get better shots from behind the wall, where with the 250 you might need to jump out in the water box with them.

Use them both, even if one sits on a tripod, unattended (find a good spot for it). Other qualities (full manual control) of the GL2 will make up for the difference!

All good answers, thanks....
I'll bring both cameras and rely on the GL2. My wife knows how to operate the 250, so I'll let her get some shots with that.
I'm interested to see how well the two cameras can be matched anyway.

I think I'm just nervous about shooting for money and not fun....

Thanks,
BT

Ok folks, here is what I have been using countless internet hours of my time trying to figure out. Which cam is the right cam? Here's what I need to be able to do, first, I need a 3ccd cam with xlr audio outputs and timecode burn in, for filming legal depositions. second, I need a cam that will assist me in filming high quality surfing and documentary footage. Basically I need a cam for work and play! The moderate priced HD cams have really caught my eye (XH-A1) but will they be practical for legal video? Any and all suggestions would really help me out, since I'm going in circles. My budget is around $3500. Thank you all!!!!

The A1 is a great little camera and the XLR adapter comes right off if if gets inthe way of more active shooting.
For the money, I think it is one of the best deals going.

The right camera for you is the one which feels best in your hands.

Determine your budget; choose your desired format and workflow.

If you try before you buy and don't succumb to Analysis Paralysis, then you can't make a wrong decision.

I'm going to start merging all of these dozens of "which camera" discussions into one big 'ol thread.

I'm not sure on the US pricing but have a look at the V1 (Model up from the A1) as personally I feel theres some big problems with the A1 - for example if you're shooting in a courtroom and the tape runs out you're gonna be taking it off its pod to change tapes, altering the shot, levels etc...But as Chris has said, there's more for you to figure out on a personal workflow level than just what/where you're shooting before choosing a camera.

Just go for the Canon XH-A1. Almost all of the cameras in that price range are good cameras, they just have slightly different pros and cons. On a simple bang-for-you-buck basis the XH-A1 wins (hence why Cnet has it as their pick of the bunch) and it is a complicated enough piece of equipment that it will force you to learn how to use it well.

Purchase and enjoy.

I think there's been some confusion in this thread between the Sony A1U and the Canon XH-A1. The former is a small consumer-like camcorder (with some pro features) and the latter is a larger 'prosumer' model. I'd recommend the XH-A1 for any serious work unless you need to be inconspicuous; the A1U is useful as a back-up camera for the Sony Z1U.

Hi!

Total NOOB here!

I have a Sony consumer DCR-TRV140 Handycam and, bless its heart, it just ain't gonna last forever.

I am thinking about purchasing a new camera. I am leaning towards Canon simply because I have it stuck in my head that they are more reliable. I have considered everything from the Canon ZR-830 to a used GL2 I saw online.

I want all the obvious things (sharp image, low lux capability, good optical zoom, stabilizing) and...IMPORTANT...I would like a solution for good SOUND quailty. I don't mind accesorizing the camera to get better sound than what it came with...I just want it to work well.

I am looking for firewire connectivity (or, if there is an alternative suggestion for Mac minis, let me know).

I have a "practical" budget of up to $1000.00 or so but am willing to pay more for an exceptional value in a camera deal.

I will be using the camera for everything from personal occasions (birthdays, etc.) to putting a few things on the internet and, its ultimate purpose (after I get a bit more experienced with DV) is to produce a documentary or two.

Thanks for your time and consideration and I look forward to your advice and suggestions!

Happy Independence Day!

Kurt: for $1000 your options are somewhat limited; spend a little more and you can get the Sony A1U with high-definition recording and decent audio inputs.

Welcome to DVinfo Kurt!

The Sony A1 is a good suggestion, but you might also look for a used Sony PDX-10. It has the pro audio features you want and uses the same XLR adaptor and mike as the A1. It also shoots high quality standard definition 16:9 which the GL2 can't match. Visit our forum here for more info: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=43

The camera was discontinued about 2 years ago, so maybe there are some good deals if you can find a used one...

Thanks for the suggestions!

Hmmm.

decisions, decisions.

help! :-) I want videocam:
1: good in low light
2: hi resolution
3: shake proof
4: big on zoom
7: self timing
8: approx $350.00
9: mini dv or MAC friendly hdd for approx. $900.
10: small
11: with 80 minutes of uniterrupted recording time with high quality.






PEACE, KENWOOD-

The Sony A1U is a good suggestion, but it's out of the price range, I think.
There's the Canon HV20. Doesn't have XLR in, but you can get an adapter from whatever mic you're getting.

For all of the above, I'll go as high as $2500 USD.

I think all those suggestions are great. Maybe the new HD JVC Everio, too.

heath

Hi,

I'm not posting this thread in the Sony Z1 forum or the Canon XL1s forum, because I'm afraid I would get a biased answer any way.
This is more neutral ground ;-).

I'm busy writing a fan episode of a series I really like.
I would like to shoot it for 2 reasons:
1. purely fun
2. technical learning school for me and my crew.

I already made some movies, have some experience, but now I want a kind of fullblown mainstream look (intending to make our own dolly, etc...).
We will light our footage as good as we can, with people who have learned how to.

The thing is... on what will I shoot?
I personally have a Canon XL1s. It's a fine camcorder and I'm really comfortable with it, I'm pleased with the images I mostly get.
And as this is a project that's more for fun, and I think that although we will project the end result once on a big(ger) screen, I think the main end product will be dvd, I think the Canon XL1s will suffice and it has my preference, even though it's an older camera.
(ps: also, I live in PAL land, so I have 25p, more or less)

Then, I *could* (not sure) maybe get an Sony Z1 in my hands for shooting my episode. The good things about the Sony are it's low light performance (I was really amazed when I shot a play with it), and it's better resolution (HDV). The bad thing about the Sony is, I would have less freedom to use it, because it isn't mine, I like the ergonomics of the Canon more, and it doesn't really has a 25p option (not a good one).

so, my preference goes to the Canon XL1s.
But I'm open to discussion and would like to hear some opinions, if people would like to contribute.

Thanks and best regards,

You, and your team should experiment with interchangeable lenses to round off the learning experience.

If you are not bound by some Commercial expectations placed on you by a client, the XL1s is more versatile.

If you put your experimental energies into experimenting with the content and methods of creating a "film", rather than with the (in my opinion) still experimental HDV format, you will be using your time more fruitfully.

The project sounds like fun.

Go with what you have, unless you have a specific reason for trying something you have to borrow.

... from a Z1 owner, I say: stay with your Canon. No, I am not unhappy with my camera, on the contrary - it does everything I need and a ton more. On the other hand I don't even know the Canon.

And still, I would stay with the camera I know. Your project, as outlined, is geared toward an overall learning experience. It will involve a whole crew, and this is not the best time for you to learn another camera. If you go with a camera you don't know, you will have to make lots of stops to look up a feature, refine a setting - your efforts to bring out the max from the camera will eventually irritate the rest of the crew.

One final point: it will take some serious testing for you to bring out the "look" you want for your film, especially with an unknown camera. By tradition, Canons are geared more toward "film look" while Sonys more toward the crisp, sharp "video look".

Good luck with your project and whatever you decide, keep us posted!

Thanks for the advice.
I already work with the Canon for 2 or 3 years, so I know the camera pretty well, and I love to work with it. Only had 2 experiences with the Sony, which I found to be okay, but in ergonomics and 'handling', I liked the Canon better.

I don't think we will be able to put money in other lenses, because we will put money in a dolly, lights, sound, and make-up effects.
(Okay, I'll say it: it's a fan episode from The X Files ;-) it's still in a very early fase).

I'm getting here the responses I anticipated and agree with: stick to the camera you feel best with. It's not like we are going to transfer to 35mm or something, so resolution isn't that important.

Thanks again,

Hi All, I'm looking for a sub-$500-600 miniDV camera, SD, with external mic jack, and a headphone jack, for basic student projects.
Seems like most of the headphone jacks have been eliminated in the lower end camcorders.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Someone mentioned they could monitor the audio, while recording, through the A/V output jack (connected to headphones), but I forgot the make and model.

Thanking anyone for assistance.

Hi All, I'm looking for a sub-$500-600 miniDV camera, SD, with external mic jack, and a headphone jack, for basic student projects.
Seems like most of the headphone jacks have been eliminated in the lower end camcorders.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Someone mentioned they could monitor the audio, while recording, through the A/V output jack (connected to headphones), but I forgot the make and model.

Thanking anyone for assistance.

Optura 50 or Optura 60. Headphone support, mic input, manual audio and even a focus ring on the lens. IF you can find one, I just checked eBay and couldn't find a singe unit. Dang.

Optura 50 or Optura 60. Headphone support, mic input, manual audio and even a focus ring on the lens. IF you can find one, I just checked eBay and couldn't find a singe unit. Dang.Thanks for looking, anyways. We need 12 of these.
I may have to settle for just mic in, and hope the students remember to turn on their external mics, but I hate flying blind.
Now looking for sub-$500 miniDV with mic in, no luck yet.

Thanks for looking, anyways. We need 12 of these.
I may have to settle for just mic in, and hope the students remember to turn on their external mics, but I hate flying blind.
Now looking for sub-$500 miniDV with mic in, no luck yet.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/478924-REG/Canon_1880B001_ZR800_Mini_DV_Camcorder.html

$236.95 with mic input and 35X optical zoom (!!). Probably not a spectacular image, but its hard to argue with the price :)

EDIT
You'll need to get some of those $12-15 accessory shoe arms for these, no shoe on the cam.

Ah yes, I was writing that an accessory shoe would be nice, while you edited.
Thanks again.
I'm still going through all the manufacturer websites to see if I can find a camcorder with a shoe and a mic input.
Otherwise the camcorder would be fine for student projects.
Would be a wonder if it lasted a year.

I wonder how long will B&H wait before they develop a web tool for camera search... where I would choose my price range and the specs I need, to bring up the available cameras, a comparison chart, etc. All the needed data IS ALREADY in their database anyway...

It would become an incredible sales help for them, and an easy way for the videographer to shop for the camera that fits his needs.

I'm trying to get an idea of what camera would be good for doing a fair amount of green screen work (not interviews, though), I also want 30p. 24p would be a nice to have, but not essential.

I've heard that some form of HD is better than DV for getting a good key, but am confused by all the different versions of HD and wondered if there was any particular version that would or would not be good for green screen.

I'm thinking of something up to around $5k or so.

For example, would something like the JVC GY-HD110 be a reasonable choice or not?

Suggestions/comments appreciated

The JVC HD110, the Panasonic HVX200 and the Sony V1u are great places to start. The V1u is around $3700 or so; the Canon A1 is around $3500 and does 30f, 34f and 60i.

heath

Any of the 1/3" chip HDV cameras would be fine--it's more important which one you like the best. Chroma keying is all about your lighting and keying software (I'm getting good keying with dvgarage's dvmattepro in FCP).

Just a note, the V1u has three 1/4" CMOS sensors but my colleagues and I have found them to be just fine for keying, etc.

heath

I've even got good keying from a little Sony 1/4" chip camera, the old TRV900. I know one in-house group doing lots of keying with a little Sony A1U. Lighting, software, and the willingness to fool around with a clip over and over again to get the key right--that's what it's all about. People used to be fond of saying you couldn't key DV. Then when everybody started keying DV in an acceptable way, HDV came out and the naysayers said you couldn't key HDV, and the same thing happened--people key it every day. It's not as good as Hollywood keys from uncompressed HD, and nothing else is either. But you can make it very acceptable if you do it right.

Thanks for the responses!

As I understand the Canon 30f it's really an in camera interpolation as opposed to true progressive scan 30p. Is this correct?

Also, is it the case that HDV is better for keying due to more chroma information than DV? I've seen a lot of posts complaining about keying problems or blockiness when keying from DV.

No, the Canon 24f and 30f modes are true progressive scan images. They are derived from interlace chips, but it's not an interpolation thing as the Z1 does. There's a Canon white paper about this as well as zillions of posts on this board. There are no deinterlace artifacts, no pulldown--it's a true 24 frames per second, no funky pulldown judder. I believe Sony's XDCAM HD cameras use interlace type chips too and end up with true 24p (is that correct?). The advantage of this is that you can shoot 1080i if you want, as well as 24p, 30p. The measurebators (thanks to Chris for that wonderful word) say Canon loses a little resolution in the progressive mode, but you will never notice it without a very good side-by-side comparison between the two modes from the same camera. It's already the highest resolution camera in its class, and a little loss in that area is meaningless, from what I've seen, including all that I've shot. In fact, recently I did a week shoot for a guy using the 60i mode, and I didn't see any difference at all between the 24p stuff I shot of a similar subject, except that the 24 fps footage looked nicer to my eye. He couldn't tell the difference.

Most keying software today takes care of the early DV keying issues. Presumably HDV could possibly be a little bit better in that regard, but I doubt it's anything you'll notice, although it might be just a little easier to get a good key than it is with DV. There are no short cuts in chroma keying--if you don't light it right and work with your software, you won't get good keying no matter what you use. You also have to have a large enough studio to keep the subject 12 feet or so from the background to avoid green reflections off his shiny spots. The farther away the wall is, the easier you life will be.

Found this on another web site - it purports to be from Canon re frame mode. They say it is indeed interpolated.

I had found a really good explanation once but can't put my fingers on it at the moment - it also mentioned interpolation

<<<The GL-1 does not have a progressive scan CCD chip, instead it features an Interlaced Scan CCD. The Normal Movie Mode captures two fields (odd and even), then interlaces them together for playback. The time delay in scans creates a loss in vertical resolution and decreased sharpness of the still images. In contrast, the Frame Movie Mode captures 3/4 of a frame and interpolates the other 1/4 at the same point. Since both scans are effectively taking place at the same time, vertical resolution is 1.5 times higher. This produces high quality still images, but not quite the level of a camera with a Progressive Scan CCD.

Thank you for your inquiry,
Canon USA>>>

I also found the following link

http://www.bealecorner.com/gl1/res/gl1res.html

where he filmed a test chart in interlaced and frame mode and the frame mode was softer. Of course, in the case of a fixed camera and fixed target, as he pointed out, the interlaced mode is the same as true progressive.

Interestingly enough, he says that the frame mode test showed no flicker on a video monitor when paused, while the interlaced mode did show flicker in the areas of fine detail. Which is leading me tho wonder whether this was one of the reasons that Canon opted for frame mode ie to miimize flicker on "stills".

The reason I'm trying to really get clear on all this is that I want to use the video for match moving and I was told by the guy who developed the package I have (Syntheyes) that I would get the best results with progressive scan. He said that while it would work with interlaced, the tracking quality would be significantly improved with progressive scan

Jim,

You are pointing to articles referencing the 'older' cameras. The 24f and 30f being referenced apply to the XLH1 and the newer XHA1 and XHG1. The XL2 uses true native progressive imagers so that camera is labeled as 24P and 30P.

Bill,

The XDCAM HD uses true progessive chips also. It does 'progressive segmented frame' which is true progressive capture. Then the frame is broken into two fields that have no time differential like true interlaced would. This allows the material to be processed and stored with the same signal chain and storage media as 60i.

-gb-

Thanks for the clarification on the XDCAM, Greg. I was hazy about that and obviously wrong.

The Canon issue has been beat to death. I'm gonna drop out of this discussion. The end result are progressive images at 24 fps, that's all I care about.

Greg,

Thanks so much for the clarification.

I think if I've got it right, the label "30f" would refer to the sort of progressive interpolated in camera mode and the label "30p" means really progressive.

I'm aggrevated. I bought the Sony PDX10 3CCD 16:9 almost 3 years ago to film the beginning of my family. After only a year it developed a hot pixel 1/2 way down & 1/3 across from the left side. It's annoying & costs as much as the camera to fix. With the recent birth of my 3rd & last child, I want to make sure I capture the precious moments growing up, but the hot spot is distracting in low light.

My brother got the HC7 and the picture was great in HD, but I never saw what it could do in SD. For now I can only handle SD material with both my computer editing and TV payback. I'm assuming I can record everything in HD for archiving and down-convert to SD for viewing & editing now.

My problem is that I don't have the extra money to spend and it will be quite some time till I do. I socked $2300 into the PDX10 and would be lucky to get $900 out of it if it was in perfect condition. I can try to sell it through an auction and see what I can get for it, and if it's enough turn around & buy the HC5, but I'm not sure.

What would you do? How is the HC5 in SD?

Too bad about the PDX-10. I know that Sony recalled a lot of cameras (still and video from various manufacturers) for defective CCD's. Have you investigated to see if the PDX-10 might be part of that? If so, the repair would be free. Probably worth a call to their service center - see the info here: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10018/serviceCenters.shtml

I gave my PDX-10 to a friend last winter, but never noticed any CCD problems in the years I used it heavily. I think you will give up a lot of manual control by going to the HC series, not to mention the pro audio and DVCAM features. But if you're just doing family stuff that may not be an issue for you. The HVR-A1 is the heir apparent to the PDX-10... is that beyond your price range? http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=0&p=2&sp=141&id=80897

Unfortunately it does not fall under the recall. It's a flat rate $550 for a repair plus shipping cost. The only reason I got the PDX10 at the time was because it was the only 3CCD native 16:9 on the market and had excellent auto features and better sound recording. I never used any of the manual features nor the DVCAM b/c I didn't notice a difference. I'd rather put the $550 towards an HC5 if the colors are equivalent or very close. Can anyone comment on this? Oh, and yes the HVR-A1 is too much but it looks sweet!

Thanks!

Next week my old reliable DCR TRV110 has been called upon to serve as a 'live feed' camera connected to a projector and show a live band performing in a wedding reception.

How do I prevent the camera from shutting down after 3 minutes (or going into DEMO mode), unless it is actually recording to tape? I don't need to record in the TRV110 because another camera/man is doing that. The manual says the TRV110 powers down to save on battery. Since I'm connected to the wall outlets, battery power is not an issue.

Would really appreciate any help.

Thank you and Mabuhay!

Mariano L. Honrado, Jr.

If there isn't a tape in the camera, and it is on wall power, it should stay on. You can probably turn off the demo mode in the setup menu.