I'd say probably the Panasonic SDX900 would be your best bet. Only problem, it won't meet your cost parameters.

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael R. Blackbourn :and I also like the pv-gs400 as it meets most of my requirements other then 24p , and people would laugh if you showed up to film a commercial with it)... -->>>

Welcome Michael!

Have you looked at the PDX-10 (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=11&id=65263)? It's another smaller camera, but has XLR inputs with the same mike as the PD-170, DVCAM recording, high res 16:9, high res BW viewfinder, pro black finish. The XLR box is removable and then it will record with built-in stereo mikes, nice if you want a smaller camera for the family stuff. I like mine a lot, but from what I'm reading it isn't quite in the same league as the XL-2. But for $1,850 (at B&H) it would leave enough to add a mattebox and other accessories so the guys at "Bob's Used Cars" won't laugh at you ;-) You could use a product like DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker). to acheive the 24p effect in post.

Of course you get what you pay for, and if the XL-2 is within your budget you might want to wait and see some reviews after people get their hands on one, it sounds like quite a nice camera to me.

Who do you work for Michael? Rainmaker?

I bought some XL1 accessories from a fellow from Rainmaker.

If native 24p is a must, and $5,000 is too much (...it is), the DVX100/100A is gonna be your bag.

If you could save 24P for post (which you probably don't wanna do), check out the PDX-10, which is essentially the GS400 minus Cinegamma, plus XLR and DVCAM, or the AG-DVC30, which is Pana's in-between model. It has the ability to add an XLR breakaway box. The DVC60 is basically the DVC30 in a shoulder-mount style with a smaller LCD and built in XLR. And then there are the VX2100, and PD170 (VX2100 plus XLR and DVCAM), which are Sony's other top cams.

Yeah, you probably won't look too professional on a shoot with the PDX-10 or the GS400 because they are so small, but believe it or not, they have the best 16:9 of the bunch, and are loaded with pro features...

BTW - I used to watch Andromeda all the time, but they kept moving it to later and later on Saturday nights, and I couldn't keep up...did Dylan reunite the commonwealth? Slipstream was cool...good job...uh oh this post is moving into non-DV territory :)

I have nothing to add except to bitch about another show ruining the name "Dylan" for me (the first being 90210). Now I keep hearing all these mothers screaming my name at their ill-bred kids.
I've been waiting years to get that off my chest.
Otherwise, I like the show.

Anyway...
I'd put my vote in for the DVX100 as the best choice in your price range. I have to point out, people may laugh at you showing up to a commercial shoot with anything smaller than a shoulderbrick.
Yes, even with a mattebox.

Thanks for the replies guys. I just wish the native widescreen on the DVX was as slick as the rest of that camera.

As far as my VFx work goes. We have a small in-house VFX facility onsite, we send very few shots out of house anymore, I think Rainmaker is just doing our telecine and output these days.

And yeah, Dylan reunited the commonwealth, then it got corrurpt, then at the end of last season everyone seemed to have died fighting the 'magog'.

Mike.

You're obviously going to be using the DVX for professional work, so an anamorphic adaptor should pay itself off pretty quickly, and that way you're getting a high quality 16:9 along with all those other great features.

I'm taking a closer look at the DVX100A, as the xl2 20x lens bottoms out at 42mm wide angle. Adding the xl1 3x wide would put the xl2 way up there in price.

The DVX100A has a canadian dollar msrp of 5675 which is 4250 usd. I assume it will be available cheaper in stores, I only hope that it will be as cheap as b+h.

Mike

Micheal, it's cheaper than that for sure. Even if you bought it localy at LLSR, Matrix or Leo's, you shouldn't pay more than $5,000cdn for it before tax.

would you recommend buying locally then? I found http://www.dvshop.ca and they seem to have decent prices...

Mike

Im in a bit of a pickly guys.Im not sure what camera i should get,im leaning towards the vx-2100, but i was also thinking of the gl2.I know they both have there good points,but i need a bit of help on this one. Im open for all suggestions, or anything like that. Anything would help, thank you

Which might you value more, light sensitivity (VX) or zoom length (GL2)?
The VX seems to be of a more sturdier build, the GL2 more plasticky.

For most people on the forum, the best bet is one of the forum sponsors, like B&H, ZGC, or Zots. Being in Canada, you may have issues if you have to ship the camera back and forth for any warrenty issues. It WILL be cheaper from one of the sponsors coming in from the USA, but the local shops will be able to give you instant customer service. I'm not a fan of Leos (cough-still camera nerds-cough), but really like the way Lorne Lapham treats me. They are pro all the way. Still, you could probably save $500 by buying it from B&H.

There is also frame mode on GL2, but VX has also his strenghts. The best recipe is try&buy. I was shooting with (company's)PD150(VX2000 on steroids:-)) and finally choosed for myself XM2(GL2), and never regreted for a bit.

I had this same predic. Then I found out that the only true progressive shooting mode that the vx2100 has is 15 frames per second. How "15p" could create at all decent footage escapes me. Since the 30p look was what I really wanted in my new camera, I went with the gl2. I agree with you though, the vx2100 does look more durable.

I had this very same problem myself, a few weeks ago. I wanted frame mode, so was gonna go with the GL2. But it just seemed like a plastic cam.

IMO if you want durability, and frame mode another option is the Panasonic DVC30. I have bought one and am not dissapointed. It has a metal alloy body (not plastic like GL2), Frame mode + cine gamma, fantastically controllable 16x zoom lens, a modular design to accept upgrades, and a shape and menu system similar to the DVX100.

Well I certainly agree that you need to buy a camera that "feels good" to you, and I don't own either a GL-2 or DVC-30 (I have Sony's). However I've seen other people tout the metal body on the DVC-30 before and that sounds a bit like marketing hype IMO. I am certainly not saying that it isn't a great camera, but I just wonder how much value a metal body has? And I also wonder what the GL-2 is made of?

If you're worried about durability then do a little research and see how often the GL-2 breaks or falls apart. Like I said, I don't own one, but I don't really remember seeing people say they're fragile in the forums here or elsewhere. But maybe I've missed something? Now if you just don't like the way the GL-2 feels that could certainly be reason not to buy it, no argument there.

My point is that you should buy the camera based on whether it has the features you want, owner experiences and preferably first hand experience. All the manufacturers hype certain features of their products and that's just part of the game. Try to see through this and evaluate the important aspects.

i purchased my dvx100ap from b&h, included, 1 9hr battery, wide angle .x6
came to 5600canadian
took it across the border in a bag....

Greetings. This is a newbie question and I know I'm gonna get flamed, but I need the advice.

I've been playing around with my Canon Optura Xi, Final Cut, etc. mostly doing family video, trying to learn as much as I can and hoping to turn my hobby into something that could someday get me out of the IT biz. I've been reading as much as I can about and experimenting with lighting, sound and editing.

I am about to accept some paid jobs doing corporate training videos (interviews, Q&A, demonstrations) and also some jobs shooting the action for a stock car racing pit crew.

I think that I need to get a new camera, both for quality reasons (although I'm not sure that *I* could tell the difference) and to appear more "pro" (I just don't think that showing up with my Optura Xi is a good idea.)

I looking at the Canon GL2 ($2050), Panasonic AG-DVC30 ($2100), Panasonic AG-DVX100A ($3500), Sony DCR-VX2100 ($3150). I plan to go on a "fact finding mission" to B&H in New York soon (I live in CA).

When I get there, what should I look for? How should I check out these cameras?

Also, Panasonic has announced a shoulder mounted version of the DVC30, the AG-DVC60 ($2400). Should I be considering a shoulder style camera? It seems like it looks more "pro", and I can see it being handy around the pit crew, and I like the fact that it has XLR inputs, but I can also see that there could be some disadvantages too. Essentially, is the shoulder style a good idea, or would I be better off getting a quality hand-held camera?

Thanks! This is a great forum and hope to start contributing often.

--Cameron

<<<-- Originally posted by Cameron ORourke : I looking at the Canon GL2 ($2050), Panasonic AG-DVC30 ($2100), Panasonic AG-DVX100A ($3500), Sony DCR-VX2100 ($3150). -->>>

Perhaps you were looking at list prices? The VX-2100 leapt out at me, it sells for $2,350 at B&H. Or maybe you were thinking of the PD-170 which they sell for $3,200? There is now a $300 rebate on the PD-170 which lowers the price to $2,900 - not a bad deal at all.

As far as the shoulder mount thing, I know that some people will find this more impressive. However keep in mind that the DVC-60 only has 1/4" chips and doesn't have some of the other advantages of "real" shoulder-mount cameras, like interchangeable lenses and a high resolution viewfinder. Of course it is considerably cheaper though. I suppose you need to balance the need to create a good impression versus a desire to get the best image for the buck. If you already have these jobs lined up then maybe you should concentrate on image quality?

Why in the world would anyone flame you on this topic? You must be thinking of some other website... ;-) Happy shopping!

I'd go with the dvc60 because for one it looks pro, which is very important for the sort of paying jobs your talking about. Also, if your doing ENG type of stuff, shooting from the shoulder is the only way to be really solid. This cameras cine gamma technology should also render more pleasing results under uncontrolled circumstances.

Boyd, thanks. You are right, I forgot to get the selling price at B&H for the VX-2100.

You mentioned the PD-170 which I noticed is a DVCAM. Is DVCAM (vs. DV) something that I should be looking into?

Also is a 1/4" chipset with 410,000 pixels each (The DVC-30) inferior to a 1/3" chipset with 380,000 pixels each (the Sony VX2100) ? This is confusing.

Also, I notice that some of the more "pro" cameras like the PD-170 have a black and white viewfinder whereas the "less pro" DVC-30 has a color viewfinder. Plus the DVC-30 has a 3.5" LCD whereas most of the other cameras have only a 2.5" LCD. I have a BeachTek XLR transformer so on-board XLR would be nice, but is not essential.

I'm starting to think that I ought to try and rent some of these cameras to really get the skinny. :-/

--Cameron

everything you need from b&h can be done online, i wouldn't spend the money for a trip, just to visit 'em... spend those $$$ on a better camera.

those little sony 3-chip cameras take a great picture, but you need to examine all the controls, to see if some of the functions you'll need are easily accessible... sony will sometimes bury things in silly menus, because there simply isn't enuf real estate on a small camera to make all the functionality externally accessible... the xl1s does a pretty good job of that, once you understand the rather arcane button setups.

the ideal solution for shoulder-shooting is to have an optically-stabilized(not electronically-stabilized) lense, especially if you are rather new to the video game... you can get shoulder mounts for the small cameras, but i've never tried one.

no matter what camera you get, the bottom line is always how well you know the camera itself, and how good you are as a shooter.

Dan, thanks. The reason I was thinking of actually visiting B&H was to actually get my hands on the cameras and try them out -- check out the location of the controls, feel the balance, check out the optical stabilization, etc.

When you say "little sony 3-chip cameras), are you referring to the Sony DCR-VX2100?

Something else I'm wondering. I've heard lots of references to being "skilled with the camera" or being "a good shoorter". I've found all kinds of books on NLE, lighting, sound, scriptwriting, directing, etc. but nothing on how to skillfully capture a scene. I know there must be a whole body of knowledge on this...

Thanks,
Cameron

Being a skilled shooter isn't just frame composition, its as plethora of things usually learned through experience (or a good message board :) ). Like if you do the pit crew video, you need to know when to keep the camera rolling. You certainly won't be shooting for 4-8 hours straight, so you're going to have to be intuitive about when and when not to be recording. The biggest part is prepreoduction. Plan ahead of time what shots you need to get to be able to create a narrative later in your NLE. You should probably sit down with your clients and go over the shooting script to make sure they get what they want, and let them feel like they have a little input. Once you know what shots you need, think about the time of day when you'll need to get certain shots so you can put them in a logical order. For example, which parts of the racetrack will be accessible during the race day? Should you go a day earlier for some comparison shots of the grounds without the crowds, or for some quiet pit interviews on the grounds? etc... Being a good shooter is as much being comfortable with your cam as it is being prepared.

With today's cams, shoulder mount is not a must unless you're doing hours handheld (ENG and the like). People won't be offput by a smaller camera unless you walk in with a little matchbook cam. As long as it's bigger than the one they have at home and has more buttons, you should be all right. Plus once you add on a mic, a big lens hood, lights, etc...a medium sized cam will look plenty pro. If you have the lighting, you could easily get away with 1/4" chips (outdoor, daytime), but for the corporate stuff, 1/3" will give you a little leniency indoors.

Hi Cameron,

A nifty camera that "has been discontinued" from Panasonic is the AG-DVC80. B&H currently has them in stock at $2400. I have one and it gives me superb footage. Has XLR built in and is the DVX100As little brother, almost identical. The 80 has the 1/3" chips - its replacement, the DVC30 has 1/4" chips. Its worth a long look imo.

Jesse, thanks for the advise -- I'm reading it very carefully. And, I've decided that for what I'm doing that a shoulder mount is just plain silly. Image quality should be my first consideration -- not sure what I was thinking...

Bill, thanks.

I'm starting to "get" that 1/3" CCDs are really a lot better than 1/4" CCDs, although I'm not sure exactly why if the pixel count isn't any different, or is even less (especially if the lens is the same size).

But in any case the DVC80 is a good lead as its $1000 cheaper than the DVX100A. Other than not getting 24p and Cinegamma, the specs look identical -- and I'm not really going to be creating films, at least not for a while. :-P Can you think of anything else that the DVX100A has over the DVC80?

Also, are there any comments on Panasonic's optical image stabilization vs. Canon and Sony? I've read that it is problematic.

Thanks,
Cameron

Woa.

While you may go for a loaf-of-bread (LOB) form-factor camera, the highest image quality is the domain of the on-the-shoulder pro cameras. The shoulder-mounted DVX-60 isn't in the pro camp but does deserve consideration in your application.

I'll give you an example. Ever notice the shots in the CNN coverage of car races where the camera is very close to the ground and then swoops over tires and up over the hood line of a car? That's very hard with a LOB camera because it doesn't have the mass (and what it has isn't placed to advantage) to stabilize the shot. A heavier, deeper profile pro camera will provide a stability because of it's mass and the mass location. LOBs are quite difficult to hold steady compared to an on-the-shoulder- camera

Comments about inaccessible controls doesn't apply to the DSR-170 or the VX-2100. All required shooting controls are external and separate. Setup items are on menus.

DVCam is exactly the same image quality as DV.

BTW, I use everything from a large shoulder-mount camera to a fit-in-the-pocket camera and a lipstick camera. Fit the camera to the job, as you are trying to do, is always a good idea.

the advantage with an "lob" configuration is that you have optical image stabilization, flip-out lcd monitor, and a top handle... even a trained monkey can get a steady swoop shot with that kind of a rig! j/k

the problem comes in trying to hold a tiny camera steady in front of you... many inexperienced shooters will try a two-handed shot using the flip-out lcd monitor... imho, totally the wrong approach, anchor it on your shoulder with an aftermarket mount, and use the eyepiece to frame the shot, not the flip-out monitor... you should also have easy access to the zoom and exposure controls at the same time.

i would go down to goodguys or maybe fry's, and get some hands-on with the smaller cameras... the last tiny camera i shot with was the old sony 950, and it's functionality was a joke, compared to what i can do with the xl1s.

the classic difficult motorsports shot is when you have to make radical manual exposure adjustments, while doing fast pans at the same time.

Cameron,

I notice that you are going to do "corporate interviews".

I see no mention of lighting or audio, in your desires.

Might I suggest that you consider, that, as a bear minimum, you budget @ $1K, for each.

I know: OUCH!!! THAT HURTS!! you say.

But: Sloppy video = no more jobs.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt : the advantage with an "lob" configuration is that you have optical image stabilization, flip-out lcd monitor, and a top handle... even a trained monkey can get a steady swoop shot with that kind of a rig! j/k
-->>>

Not certain what j/k means but OIS may very well cause problems when you are moving the camera like that and the LCD screen is just a distraction and something to break off. The top handle on a LOB just means that the camera is going to swing from side-to-side. Been there, done that.

To do it properly you have to watch where the camera is moving in relationship to the outside world. Otherwise you will probably run the lens into something.

I've tried both and the pro camera works better in this application.

Furthermore, you can adjust the aperature quite easy as you pan with a pro camera.

Hi guys

I'm a documentary filmmaker, had a career until '94 when I reclused it in rural France for 8 years. I'm just getting myself back on the road and broke. My budget for a camera is $500. I know that's a joke budget but that's all I can afford give or take 50 bucks. I'm in a position where I am being asked to do work if I can get a servicable camera which would allow me to buy a realistic pro camera later.

I've looked at the Panasonic GS-120 but the indoor color rendition and low light performance turned me off.

I compared it with the Sony HC-40 which had better color and better low light and a hot shoe. And I'm leaning toward it but the touch screen manual focus seems really awkward.

I've been on the internet for entire days getting dizzy comparing specs, but I'm discovering that specs don't tell the whole story, since the panny's specs were more impressive than the sony, yet the HC-40 seems to have better overall image quality.

Can you help me out with advice and perhaps other choices?

Gosh this a novel I'm posting. I'm desperate and at the crossroads.

Well the Sony HC-40 has a LANC control too. So just buy the Sony HC-40 and then use a LANC Controller such as the Zoom Commander for manual focus. Here is a link to the Zoom Commander :

http://www.signvideo.com/zoom-commander-digital-zoom-controller_II_pro.htm

Someplace in the NJ/NY area, there has to be organizations like we have in San Francisco . . . Film Arts Foundation & Bay Are Video Coalition.

Both have full studio facilities and rent production equipment for very low prices to members. Membership is about $50 per year.

I'd suggest finding something like that, just renting or finding some people who have gear and want to learn the ropes from a pro. Indi features do that all the time. The Director sometimes only pays for food and drink, the crew bring ALL the gear.

I cannot imagine being able to do pro work with an low-end consumer camera. Not so much because one cannot get good pictures. But more than 50% of the sensory input from a finished production is sound and the consumer camera is very limited in that regard.

J/K or JK means just kidding...

Bill, both forms have their advantages, and now that you've heard them you should go to a close photo/video shop, try them out, and see what you think will be best for your applications. Some places will even let you pop in a tape and record on several cameras so you can compare the footage at home later (or in the store when you're done...and if you do this review the footage on a decent monitor, if they have one).

BTW, 1/3" chips are considered to be superior to smaller chips because they have a larger area for light capture and can therefore shoot usuable video with less additional lighting. High pixel count is more for consumer cams to get high MP stills. While high res chips can help video, they all have to get downsampled to 8bit 720X480 pix at some point, so their must be a limit to how much better resolution and sampling can even with 1MP+ chips.

I second what Mike says, but if all you're looking for is a stepping stone camera, you should check out some used models on Ebay... VX1000, TRV900, AG-EZ50, GL1,etc...You can find some good deals with better features than a new cam, and may have $$ enough left over for a usuable unidirectional mic (you can make a boom pole out of a $10 painters pole).

Mike, Dan, Robert, Jesse,

Many thanks for the advice! This is all very useful.

I've decided against the shoulder-mount because I want to get the best image quality in my price range. I was interested primarily in the Panasonic AG-DVC60 (coming out in Sept.) which works OK for me price wise, but won't give me the image quality of the DVC80 or the DVX100A (as far as I can tell.) The other shoulder-mount cams are way out of my league. I was only looking at shoulder-mount cams to look a little more "pro" anyway -- which I decided was a stupid reason.

As for steady shots -- I think that I should consider some kind of steady cam rig that I could use as needed. Seems like that would give me a steadier shot and a lot of flexibility.

Regarding lighting, I've been doing photography for a few years and have read 2 or 3 books on lighting video. While I understand that you can light your scene with darn near anything (my brother is a Hollywood gaffer) I need to find something that is small, light, transportable/rugged, and flexible -- I should probably start another topic on that question.

Question regarding video shops -- other than B&H in New York, are there any other places where you can see/touch/try the higher end video cams?

Jesse, your explanation of chip sizes vs. pixel counts made perfect sense -- that clears up my confusion completely.

Thanks All! This is a really fine community.
--Cameron

The DVC80 and the DVX100A should give you a superior picture, and manual control compared to the DVC30/60.

Understand, though, that any kind of steadicam rig is going to be expensive. Some members here have built there own for much less, though. Check out the "Photon Management", and "Support Your Local Camera" boards on DVInfo for threads on lighting and stabilization, respectively.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jesse Bekas : I second what Mike says, but if all you're looking for is a stepping stone camera, you should check out some used models on Ebay... VX1000, TRV900, AG-EZ50, GL1,etc...You can find some good deals with better features than a new cam, and may have $$ enough left over for a usuable unidirectional mic (you can make a boom pole out of a $10 painters pole). -->>>

Jesse, none of those are even close to $500. More like $1000 and above because, as you recognize, they are still viable cameras.

I work at an outdoors production company but I'm not a gear guy. We're starting a new hunting show and I'm wondering what camera would be best for my needs. The following things are important to me. Small and extremely portable, at least 2 channels of audio that can be manually controlled, wireless microphone system for the 2 channels of audio, good in low-light, good in light contrast situations (sitting in the woods shooting into an open, well lit field), durable, switchable lens capability, and a broadcast quality picture. I've been briefly been told about the JVC GR-HD1 and I have some interest in that. HD is not a requirement. Would be used mostly in 4:3.
We already use DVCPro50 Camera's and I'm looking for something much smaller without giving up quality.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm not going to pretend I know much about camera's so I won't even pretend. Also, would the JVC mini-DV tape be compatible to play back in a Sony DSR45 DCCam deck or a DVCPro50 deck?

How much money do you have to spend? Wild Boyz, an mtv wilderness show is shot on the dvx and i think it looks great. Cine gamma handles high contrast much more pleasingly.

Budget is around $6,000 +/- for camera, mics, tripod, batteries, charger.

Ease of manual operation is also important since the people operating it have logged many hours on professional cameras.

That JVC camera is only a single chipper and does not have interchangeable lenses.

There is nothing smaller than your DVCPRO50 camera that will give you the same quality. The smaller ones are going to be 1/2" chip or smaller camcorders, and they're not going to shoot in a DV50 format, and they're not going to cost under $6K with or without those accessories.

For that budget, you're limited to a DV25 camcorder, and further limited to a 1/3" chip one. You could look at the Panasonic DVC200 or the JVC GY5000. They are both in the $5-6K range, but with good wireless mics, tripod and power, you'd be over the budget. Also, they are bigger, heavier and require more batteries.

And, since interchangeable lenses is in your requirement, that leaves the only option the Canon XL1, at the moment. In fact, it's a pretty good time to buy one, since the XL2 is going to replace it in a week or so. The XL2 looks to be better and is native 16:9 with higher resolution chips and, more importantly for you, a 20:1 lens as standard. But, it's going to list at $5K, so with all the other stuff you need, you'd be over budget.

Anything you do other than another DV50 camera is going to give up quality. There ain't no free lunch in the video world. Mo' money = mo' quality. And, mo' quality = mo' weight. You want high quality, heavy and pricey, or you want small, light and cheap?

All the 1/3" chip camcorders (meaning the Sony VX2100/PD170, the Panasonic DVX100a, the Canon XL2--soon--, and the JVC GY300) are very close to each other in image quality. They all have manual controls and they all have 2 channel audio capability. The Canon XL1 (and soon XL2) are the only ones that have interchangeable lenses. If I were going to do a wildlife or hunting show or anything like that, I most likely would go for the Canon if I couldn't afford a fully professional 2/3" or 1/2" chip camera (or didn't want one because of weight and power consumption)...because of the capability of putting on very long lenses. The fixed lens cameras all would require the use of lens adapters, both for wide angles and for longer focal lengths.

If even smaller and lighter and cheaper is an issue, then the Sony PD170 might be your best bet, though you would have to use lens adapters. Same for the DVX100a. Both of those cameras are good, though the Sony has a solid reputation for ruggedness, while the Panasonic has the capability of shooting at 24 and 30 frames per second in a progressive scan mode (most likely irrelevant for you).

You're wise to spend the money to go to B&H to check out the cameras. We recently bought a Hollywood Lite Running Rig (steadycam type device) and I flew to L.A. to check it out. Any expenditure of a few thousand bucks is worth an airplane ticket to be sure, in my opinion.

My recommendation is to definitely go with a 1/3" chip camera, and the VX2100 is, I think, the most value for the dollar in that range

Yeah, you're probably right, Mike. Although here's an AG-EZ30 going for $400...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3834818599&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

...and here's an AG-EZ1 (PV-DV1000) for $500, unbid on...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20332&item=3835416864&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

...a VX700 for $480...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20333&item=3834599217&rd=1

those aren't the same cams I mentioned, but they would be better than most of the new ones you could get for $500. Keep looking for deals online, specifically on Ebay and you should find something worthwhile...

PS - I wasn't trying to be sarcastic by saying you're right, Mike, and then listing Ebay auctions to try to prove otherwise. You are mostly right about those models, but there are a couple of VX1000's that look like they may stay around $500 on there right now. Ebay is a world of "who knows" if you look long enough (I got my PV-DV851 brand new on there for $200).

Thanks for the info Bill. Certainly lot's to check out. Anyone else??

When you say low light, if you mean light that is low enough that you have a hard time reading, then the Sony PD170 is about the only camera for you. Not a removable lens but it does have the audio you want and it is hammer-rugged.

Thanks Cory, Mike, Jesse

Your advice was very helpful and gave me things to check into. Unfortunately once the bidding gets advanced, I'm being priced out of the TRV900.

What about the Sony VX700 as a stepping stone camera?

Celia I think that cam would be great to get started. Hell its better than my ZR60. Also on a site I read it has a 1/2 chip, which is pretty darn good. Id say go for it.