Hello All,

I have been using an XL1 for well over a year now, and have occasionally ended up with tapes that started off with that familiar mosaic look where two separate images interlace. One lasted 20min like this!!

In the beginning, I always striped my tapes for continuous time code as recommended by my editing program.
When I ran into this problem I stopped after asking Canon why this was happening ( the Camera was only a month old!!)

Now it happened again, for 5 min..at a wedding!!
What is the scoop? I bought Panasonic DV tapes, so they appear to be of good quality.
Does pre-recorded tapes pose a higher risk? And how can I prevent a disaster from hitting me one day?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Sjef

Are you talking about splashes of color all over the screen? Kind of like there isn't enough signal?
Keith

I've only recorded over previous footage once. I won't do it again. It's not that it's caused a problem, but I 've heard the tape is kind of sensitive, and I'd rather be safe than sorry. With the XL1s (I don't know about the XL1) you don't have to stripe. As long as you don't go into VCR mode and look at your footage or rewind or fast forward the tape between recording, you'll be okay. If you do, just be real careful.

Generally, with DV, you don't have to stripe the tape. In fact, the time code you lay down during striping gets overwritten when you record, anyway. But, there are loose bits of the magnetic recording layer embedded in the roll of tape, withing the DV cassette. I've been told that a fast play/rewind will shake these loose bits out. I don't know. I've experienced some dropouts with Panny tape, but, I was re-using the tape. I have been told that the magnetic recording layer on DV tape is fragile and delaminates from the substrate fairly easily.

Bottom line...don't re-use tape...don't leave the cassete in the transport mechanism when you turn the camera off.

Really? Even if you're shooting again within, say an hour of turning the camera off? I figured it was okay to leave those tapes in for a short period at least.

If I remember from school, what you are attempting to do is called "black bursting". This is done for the purpose of Insert editing, which as far as I know is used only in analog editing, like s-vhs or vhs tape editing. You are prepareing a tape to accept footage, inserting that footage on a tape would be impossible if it were new, not used, clean, or un-time coded.

Try to PLAY a blank tape (un-used) in your vcr or camera - it won't move - there's no time code on it.

When you edit in a NLE system your moving it around on a hard drive. When you are doing insert editing in analog the new, receiving tape must have been pre time coded to receive anything.

Bruce

Josh...

I'm pretty sure leaving the tape in the transport for short periods of time is OK. I think storing the camera with the tape inserted is not good, however.

Hi all,

most interesting.

I have found that "striping" which I do now to all tapes has saved me time and effort. I leave the lens cap on and record.

This to me serves three purposes;

a) My RaptorNavi software which catalogues scenes can't seem to understand a break in the time code. If I for example don't return the tape to exactly the right point in the tape then the time code starts at 0 (yes 0) again. This plays hell with capturing as the camera will always rewind to the begining of the tape to find the first frame. The result is a tedious capture process of anything after a break in the time code.

b) Secondly if I want to make a point of separating differing scenes / subjects etc. then I FF for a second or two and on playback there is this nice second of black which gives me the necessary warning.

c) Sometimes trying to get across the "timeless portion" of tape (for the reason Bruce has stated) is a pain in the @#$.

On tapes and tapes left in the transport. I do not disagree with any of the advice but find the issue thus far not critical to me. I at times drive 10 - 12 hours on dusty and what we would call corrigated roads, my cam stays attached to the tripod as I need to be ready for action. In fact the tape could be in for as long as what it take to complete the footage, 2 / 3 weeks maybe even longer at times. The cam at times bounces to the degree that it worries me yet I have never had a single problem, stuck tape etc. Perhaps I am showing gross ignorance and disrespect for my kit. I wonder if it is not related to humidity and that in the more moist climates that this would be a problem. I do not mean to contadict others experience but merely to add my own.

Cheers
Andrew

But isn't the striping process extra wear and tear on the play heads? Also, you're recording over the previously recorded footage when you actually shoot , something that has not been recommended.

Hi Josh,

There is no question that the more tape you run through a head the more wear and tear you get. In my case I dont think I have more than 50 hours on my heads in 3 years, the cam will wear out before the heads. Only use the cam to record footage when on vacation.

With regard to the taping, you may well be right, I really don't know but have never had a problem. I only ever record twice on one tape. Would love to hear other opinions. And if anyone has done a quantitative before and after test. The mind plays games when subjective tests are conducted.

Also remember I am a hobbiest, I don't sell my footage to networks so maybe I have not bothered to check the quality and have always assumed it would be OK.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew....

My own procedure was very similar to yours.... until I experienced my first dropout. It was totally random and unexpected...and caused me the loss of some critical footage. I won't take thatt kind of chance, again. Toss the dice and be prepared for the outcome.

As for striping...I will repeat...it makes no diffeence on a DV camera. Striping is necessary on analog tape but not on DV. The time code you lay down gets completely overwritten when you record. Josh is right...all it does is add wear to your heads.

Hi Bill,

I am listening carefully to all the advice. There is no question that the time code gets overwritten.

Often I go out early in the morning to video, the family sleeps but want to see what I have recorded in their absence. I often don't get back to the correct point in the tape leaving a blank 0,5 to 1 sec gap (I know there is a function to do this). This gap does not have any time code and therefore really screws with the DVRaptor capture utilities.

Is there another workaround with DVRaptor or the XL-1 as all I am trying to achieve is a continious time code to facilitate capture. If there is no workaround I will cease timecoding and just get more careful when finding the last point on the tape.

Maybe it's time to treat the cause and not the symptom.

Cheers
Andrew

I believe the best solution is to record a still frame at the end of every sequence you shoot.....sometimes I record the still frame with the lens cap on. Then when you want to return to the end of the last timecode, just do a "photo search". Simple, but, effective. I beleive Chris Hurd has a short article on this method on his website.

Hi Bill,

that can work as it gives 6s. Will go check the Watchdog.

Thanks
Andrew

Or, if not a photo, how about 3-5 seconds of color bars? Or put the lens cap on and record? Time code is your friend.

Hello. Well I looked for this word in all of the posts and didn't see it. When anything is recorded onto the tape it lays what is known as a control track that contains user bit info / time code. This gives the heads something to read. Anyway, in the past with linear editing (decks) you either built your edits with butt edits building control track as you went or you used pre-striped tape stock. Buying pre-striped just saves time. With striped stock one can insert edit any audio/video (together or seperately) ANYWHERE in a finished product, for fixes, without breaking the control track and getting the infamous frame roll and noise which is irreparable because breaking control breaks time code. Well, with non-linear this is no longer an issue thank goodness!!! As for pre-striping for shooting purposes, I can't see a purpose because it just adds an unnecessary pass on the tape surface. If you want blank spaces between shots, just shoot an extra 2-3 seconds of pad on the rear and for cuing to maintain time code or control for the next shot just hit the review button on the XL and it automatically rolls the tape back to make a splice where control track is. That's what that extra 2-3 seconds of pad is for.

*sigh*
once more, with emphasis, striping is meaningless for DV format.
Everything you say is true for analog, not DV. If you want to pre- condition the tape surface, then do a fast forward and rewind. Save the wear and tear on your heads, don't bother to stripe a DV tape. There is no such thing as pre-striped DV tape.

Howdy. I agree that it is meaningless with what we have for alternatives today. But, if I record control on a DV tape right now with black, bars or whatever then it is striped for later insert editing. So, when I use it later it is "pre-striped" for my convenience if I choose to perform insert editing. So, yes there is such a thing as a pre-striped DV tape. I never said anything about "pre-conditioning" a tape. That has nothing to do with it. In my post I said it was USELESS for shooting purposes, unless you're performing in-camera editing which some cameras offer. Try doing that without pre-striping (control), it won't work. If you have ever insert edited then you will know what it means. Just break control in the middle of a project with assemble mode and see what happens. Who needs striping today with non-linear? Whether they can be bought that way or not was not my point but any tape with a control track is striped. It's just a term for control track. Again, I agree that its not needed but it is a solution if desired. It was good speaking with you.

James....
yeah, I understand what you're saying about insert editing. Are you doing linear editting on DV tape? my question is why? The DV format completely writes over EVERYTHING that's on the tape, including the time code. If you try to play back a DV tape that has had a segment inserted into the middle of another segment, you'll notice that the timecode is non-sequential....in other words, it really messes with the camera's tape transport control.
Linear editting is something going the way of celluloid film....riding off into the sunset.

Bill,
I use a non-linear platform. I am totally digital man! I don't know if I even remember how to deck edit and feel sorry for those that do. I am NOT pushing the idea of striping tapes for editing. I was simply explaining what it is and how it works and how the other posters could accomplish what they wanted to do with it. Then I am simply resoponding to your comments that it doesn't exist on DV. It exists on ANY tape if it has a control track. Also, I know that if you record over info in assemble edit, which is standard recording procedure, the code is rewritten but not in insert mode. The new XL-1s apparently has the ability to perform a/v inserts which should leave the code intact. That's the whole reason for insert, not to break control. I gotta go you're killin me. It was good speaking with again.

I resent that quip about linear editing. I had to live with it for all my video courses in college (this was only two years ago!) I became a damn near wizard with SVHS decks and a video toaster.

Anyway, I'm told many shows (sitcoms and the like) are still edited linear, with an A/B deck. The only shows not edited this way (once again, I'm told) are those that have lots of graphics (probably Access Hollywood or something). Our UPN affiliate edited one of their shows this way. I asked them why they didn't do it on their nonlinear systems, and they said they'd tried it once and it actually took longer, due to the fact they had to capture everything before they could edit it, and had to create titles in the editor instead of just overlaying with a Chyron.

Don't take it so hard. I learned to edit professionally on 3/4" so I know exactly what it's like man. I spent hours and hours in the suite going back and forth. I did not speak without reverence. I've put my time in. I definitely agree that NLE is not practical for fast paced gotta have it now environments but only because of capture time. You can't argue though, that NLE is the solution for accuracy and versatility in complex cutting. More sitcoms than you think are shot on film and cut with NLE. There will always be decks available until the disc and drive take over for instant access. It was good to speak with you.

Which ones are on film? I can tell Bernie Mac is, but I haven't been watching much TV for about a year and a half. Grounded for life too? Too me it just looks like most are on video, and they do something to the framerate. Those live Drew Carreys look different from the regular show.

Hey Guys,

I am fairly new to this forum, and it feels like I opened up a can of worms!

So some do stripe, others don't, each having fairly decent reasons.
In the end it is the matter of knowing you got the stuff on tape, rather then hoping you do.

Getting the continuous time code for my software was exactly the reason why I started to stripe, it seemed like such a simple solution, but if this even causes a slight chance of decreased quality, I will stop doing it.

If humidity could cause a factor, God am I in trouble here, it has indeed been humid for weeks!!

Another question I will throw into the mix, assuming we all do like our XL1 ( s) camera's.

What about the quallity of tapes?
I now only use Panasonic, what is the general idea on this what goes, and what does not?
Can this not play a major factor into the problems I experienced?

Thanks you all, it is good to be able to talk about the things that do bug me, stay tuned, I have more to learn, but I'll give you a break for now..;-)

Sjef

LOL...well, apologies to all...I'm not the most considerate person in the world with some of my posts. It's poking fun, but, comes across as a little more insulting and I'm sorry.

On the subject of tape brand, both Sony and Panasonic are excellent quality. Canon tape is just relabelled Panasonic tape. Many large tape houses also use Fuji. Sony and Panasonic used to be incompatible with each other because of the type of lubricant they used on the tape. I think that problem has been resolved. Still, I would recommend picking a brand and sticking with it. If you have to change brands, be sure to run a head cleaner tape thru first.

It all depends on your usage. For me, continuous time code on a roll is very valuable. Not only does it make it easy to batch capture to the NLE, but throughout post, it let's you positively identify footage (roll/timecode). Since the XL1 will sync up to existing time code on a tape, it's worth it for me to stripe the tape. Without a striped tape, you end up with blocks of timecode on each roll.

Getting back to Sjef's original post, though, I'm assuming you are talking about four or five broad horizontal bands where it looks like you are seeing one image in one set of bands and another in the alternate set of bands. Not the tiny little mosaic noise sort of dot things on the screen. I've seen this banding before, but I do not believe that it is related to striping (or even re-recording) the tape. I've seen it happen on fresh out of the box tape. In my case, it lasted for a few minutes after the camera was restarted in the middle of a roll. I attributed it to the weather (a very cold, windy shoot). Interestingly, I've also seen a very similar effect when trying to play miniDV tapes recorded on Sony VTRs in my XL1. Everyone I've talked to has said that the specs for DV were not tight enough (or maybe too tight) so the equipment is not 100% compatible across manufacturers. So, things shot on a Sony may not play in Canon or Panasonic cameras.

Maybe someone could spread a little better informed light on this issue.

What do you mean about "blocks of time code on each reel?" As long as you don't fast forward the tape past the last place where you stopped recording, the time code will pick up again from wherever it was.

Oh, sorry. I wasn't very clear. Josh is right, of course. The problem comes when you've shut down the camera and come back to a given roll (maybe it's B-roll shots for example).

Still confused. Sorry.

Can't anyone keep it simple?
1.) With all the non-linear systems in existance, why would anyone try to or want to do mini-dv linear insert editing?
2.) Yes, to make sure your tape is correctly set in the transport system and not loose, you should( in the vcr mode) FF and then rewind to tighten the tape.
3.) You only have to black burst a tape for insert editing.
4.) An analog tape, the third tape must have to go through this procedure to "insert" a section of Tape "A" or "B" onto the third tape which will give you a finished product.
5.) NLE allows you to move things around, crop, and or cut at will. Linear imitations are so, that if you decide to change something in the beginning of an edited tape you mind as well start from scratch.

Bruce

I thought I was all alone on this one. If you haven't already, take a look at my above previous posts.


Howdy Josh. Here is a site you might want to check out: http://www.filmlook.com

This company has processed a few network shows shot on video to look like film

From our earlier chat here are some sitcoms old and new that are shot on film:

Murphy Brown
Friends
Frazier
Seinfeld?
Mad About You

I never remember to do that ff and then rewind thing when starting a tape. Does it still do any good if you've already started using the tape?

To my other buddy up there: So you can tell it's video by the framerate?

Hey, Thanks all again for giving your thoughts, especially Ralph, who I think understands my problem.

All this forwarding and rewinding sounds really simple, but when I am shooting a live event, where I over a period of 5 to 6 hours flip the cam on and off many times, I tend to forget.

I am not inserting just recording scenes.
When I batch capture this after, I do have that problem, where my continuous time code is messed up, I did nothing special, other then simply turn on the cam and start recording.

Ralph was right about the band problem, and this not being related to the striping makes sense to me, although that may not be what I wanted to hear in the end.

Cheers to you all for helping me on the way to becoming better at this.

Sjef

I used to stripe because like the Canopus DVRaptor my DV500 had issues with broken timecodes. There are two ways around having to stripe and they both have +'s a-'s.

1. If you have the time, you should use the Rec Search function on your camera (if it has it that is). Rew back to the last frame and start recording from there.

2. The easiest way, for PC users, is to use a program called Scenalyzer. It is a low cost app (US$33) and is available at www.scenalyzer.com. It will scan your tape regardless of timecode breaks and create a list of all the shots.
For those Mac users, try using IMovie as it is more forgiving of timecode breaks than FCP or AVID XDV

Sjef.
I hear what your saying. My earlier posts just tried explain what control (code) is and how it is used IF insert editing. Try this. If you are doing a lot of starting a stopping when recording and want to cut power for whatever reason during downtime, just PRESS and HOLD the STANDBY button located to the right of the manual white balance button until you hear the camera respond. This shuts the camera down and retains all functions (white balance, tape position, etc) that were set at shutdown/standby. To power back up just press this button again. I use it ALL the time even for 5-10 minutes of down time between takes or whatever. I've NEVER broken control(code) when using this and don't have to reset all of my calibrations. If you have to power off with the dial because of changing batteries or whatever, do what several other posters have said. Record some pad (3-5 seconds of video) to play with and overlap the last stop point to retain consistent control (code).

Mini DV and DVCam do not have CTL (control track). DVCPRO does use CTL. CTL, as you pointed out, is used mostly in linear editing. CTL differs from Time Code in that all the CTL pulses are the same. Frame accuracy can not be maintained. Time Code is unique. Each frame has a unique number, or address. Frame accuracy can be maintained.

Jeff

Yes. you are indeed correct. In my own head I have always associated them as one and should have made that clear when explaining it. Because with either one if you make an assemble edit in the middle and break the control/code you're screwed! Thanks for the clarification. That is another good point that you brought up about frames being unique. If you are using a deck with with a time code card installed and it is in free run mode, then a tape playing with control track can be zeroed out with a push of the reset button and then you're lost. However, if recorded with code, that's not possible. Like you said each frame is a permanent physical address at that particular point on the tape.