Don't get me wrong, I love this camera and use it a lot.

But there are of course at least some objective standards when it comes to sound and measuring audio performance.

Read what Jay Rose has to say about the audio performance of the Xl1 compared to a range of other cameras and formats in "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video 2nd edition pp175 ff.

Rob Castiglione

The sound capabilities of the camera are fine for ENG and similar type work. But for the highest quality recording audio should be recorded to DAT. Audio is not great on any of the cameras in this price range. Audio capabilities will meet some peoples needs, but others should search out alternatives within their budgets (DAT, Mini Disc etc.).

The MA-100 contains an electronic (i.e., no transformers) balanced-to-unbalanced converter that is based on operational amplifiers. The 5 VDC powers the circuits.

Don's comments about line levels are right on. Even with an attenuator, it can be tricky. Early-on, I tried feeding a low level signal from my Mackie to the MA-100 -- I screwed up more than one recording. It goes into hard limit amazingly easy. Once I switched to the Beachtek for line-level stuff, the problems went away.

As with most stuff, there a few devices that do everything well. Stick to mics only with the MA-100.

I have found the on-board mic (xl1s does a very nice job in most ENG situations, and it has some limits related to dramatic scenes. What I'd like to do is find an extension cable for the on-board mic so it can be used as a short boom or stick mic for interviews,

Thank you everyone, that's the info I was looking for!

Regards,

-Steve Vandergriff

I am not an audio expert and do not know how this worked out but it did. I shot a live stage performance for a performer's personal viewing purposes where the audio was the most critical part as described by the client. They said make sure the audio is clean. Well, I set up near the audio engineers and took a feed from their mix and went into my XL with an XLR Y-adapter into the MA-200 and the audio was perfect. I made sure to ride the levels the whole time. At first during sound checks, the audio was distorted but after toggling through the menu selections it became clean. I hate to admit this but I cannot remember which setting I finally used. I do remember that what worked didn't make sense. In other words, I first tried what made sense, the line selection, and that's what was distorted. So, it was either the mic att20 or the mic setting. The fact is that it worked and the audio was clean.

I am not an audio expert and do not know how this worked out but it did. I shot a live stage performance for a performer's personal viewing purposes where the audio was the most critical part as described by the client. They said make sure the audio is clean. Well, I set up near the audio engineers and took a feed from their mix and went into my XL with an XLR Y-adapter into the MA-200 and the audio was perfect. I made sure to ride the levels the whole time. At first during sound checks, the audio was distorted but after toggling through the menu selections it became clean. I hate to admit this but I cannot remember which setting I finally used. I do remember that what worked didn't make sense. In other words, I first tried what made sense, the line selection, and that's what was distorted. So, it was either the mic att20 or the mic setting. The fact is that it worked and the audio was clean.

I tried use my ME66 with the MA100 yesterday, and could not get any sound on the XL1s's VU meters. New batteries, everything plugged in and hooked up correctly. I finally discovered today that the little cord on the MA100 (the power supply, I believe?) is not connecting with its corresponding jack on the back of the XL1s for some reason. Even when all the way in, dead silence. I jiggled it and pushed it, and finally got something, but it was very static-y, though you could hear the actual sound the mic was recording as well. What can I do? Please don't tell me to send anything to anywhere. I'll just cry.

The small plug provides +5 VDC for tha MA100. It MUST be connectd to the corrsponding jack at the back of the camcorder. Also, the audio leads from the MA100 MUST be conencted to the Camera body. If they are not connected, the MA100 does not receive power because the earth return for power is via the audio ground (not the power cord).

Assuming you are using 16-bit audio mode, the MIC/Audio 1 switch behind the door should be set to Audio 1, and the Audio 1 input level on themenu menu should be set for MIC ATT or MIC level.

Yes, and after all that, still no signal.

OK. The most common issues are checked.

Have you tested the Audio 1 input onthe camcorder with a differnt source? perhaps connect the mic directly to the left and then the right auido 1 input using a simple XLR-to RCA adapter? That will test the camcorder inputs.

If the camera inputs are OK, it most likely is the MA-100. The crackling static you mentioned often indictes a bad or unreliable connection somewhere, possibly in the power plug. That could be damaged over time and extensive use. I've seen bad cable connections in the past, even among the so called "premium" brands.

Could I get an XLR to RCA adapter and plug it in somewhere, and use that to run my Sennheiser? How would I do this?

You can find low cost (not balanced, no transformer) XLR adapters at Radio Shack. They cost onthe order of $7. Mic cable goes into one end, the other to the Audio 1 input.

Note that the transformer type at Radio Shack provide low-to-high impedance matching, and will not work well with the XL1 at MIC input levels because the XL1 MIC-level inputs are low impedance..

hello,

I have two questions concerning the MA 100 and the canon XL-1....

The first question is ....Can I only use a battery operated microphone with the MA-100?

I am looking at the Sennheiser
ME 66K6 Super-Cardioid Short Shotgun Condenser Microphone Capsule with K6 (Battery/Phantom) Power Supply....do I need the power supply to use this mic with the MA 100? Do I need a mic with phantom power to use the beechtek adapter as well?
any suggetion would be helpful....thanks.

Tim

Hi Tim and welcome to the community. I'm sure the audio pros will chime in here shortly, but the quick answer is no, you do not have to use phantom/battery powered mics (condenser type) with the MA100. There are dynamic type mics available that do not need phantom power, but they are generally of lesser quality than condenser type mics.

The ME66 is a condenser mic and does require the K6 module to work.

Phantom power is required for the microphone, not the adapter. The Beachtek and MA100 will work with either condenser or dynamic mics, but neither supply phantom power to the mic.

Hi Tim,

Yes, you would need the power supply for the ME66 for use with the MA100 or even the BeachTek. It's not that expensive anyways, and iit will allow you to use the mic with any piece of recording gear.

The XL1S does not provide phantom power, nor do the MA-100 or MA-200 XLR adaptors.

Keep in touch,

- don

What if I set it at MIC ATT? or Line?

On the XL1, MIC ATT is still 600 ohm input impedance. Connecting to a high impedance source (e.g., 50,000 ohms, will result in significant attenuation of the signal - close to 20 dB.

Line input is 47k ohms, OK for modern high impedance source, but the level from the mic may prove a bit on the low side to drive the line setting.

I believe that some (not all) of the new Beachtek and Studio One models offer a phantom power option. Their earlier models did not offer a phantom poweer option.

There are some quality dynamic mics, especially for voice and very loud sources (e.g., kick drums). But their output is tipically a bit lower than condensor mics for the same sound level.

Dynamics can be a bit more rugged. The Shure SM58 is among the most popular vocal stage mic.

Seems now that the problem lies with my mic. Not sure why. Could using the why splitter to make my mono signal "stereo" have messed it up? The last time it worked was the first time I'd used the splitter.

Have you checked the mic with other gear? Not sure how a passive splitter could have messed up the ME66.

Wonder if the splitter / adapter is wired wrong?

Haha. Guess what? Not the mic! Tried two other mics with my adapter and camera, and none of them worked either. Took the whole thing to a place near where I live, and tried the mic on one of their cameras. Works fine! It's either the MA or the camera. I left it with a place (says their an authorized service center. . .so I hope my stuff comes back the same way it went in). The guy said he thinks he'll have to order another connector for the back of the camera. :(

<<<-- Originally posted by Ed Frazier I contacted Beachtek to see if my XA-4S, which is the Sony TRV model, could be used with the XL1 and they said that internally it was the same as the unit designed for the XL1. It could be connected to the mic input with supplied mini plug or by using a mini plug/RCA adapter, connected to Audio 1 or 2. -->>>



I currently have the Beachtek model for the VX2000. I attached it to my Canon XL1s today and everything seemed to work fine. If these models are internally the same, and the look the same, and they'll each mount on the different cameras, then why does Beachtek sell separate models for different cameras? Am I really safe using the Vx2000 adapter on the Canon?

Some (consumer model) camcorders have a DC votage bias on the mic plug to power some type of external mics. (This is NOT aphantom power.) I believe that Beachteck makes some models to block this voltage. There may be other differences as well.

Oops, I did it again! I took a line feed from a board and went straight into the XL-1 with the MA-200. It was badly distorted with the menu set at mic and barely audible set at the line setting. The internal menu setting had to be set to MIC att 20 and the audio was perfect.

What kind of LINE feed? sounds like it may have been consumer line (-10 dBV) rather than professionl (+4 dBU) line.

Well this has been a pet peeve/concern of mine for a while. As and audio and video/film producer, I've always had to produce "broadcast" quality work with different levels of gear in different environments and on different budgets over the years. Here's my read and recent solution to this ala XL1s.

In my recording studios no matter whether working with 24 track analog tape, rack of DA88s, Yamaha 02R digital consoles and Roland VS2480 DAW. I never use the onboard mic pres. Even on dedicated audio consoles, I use Focusrite, Neve, Joe Meek dedicated mic pres. Why...because unless you're spending 6 figures, you're simply not going to get the level of audio preamplification and interface that you can from a dedicated pre (imagine a console with 24 $2000 focusrite input modules and you see what I mean)

That said, imagine this logic carried into the world of video cameras...at any level. It's not just the XL1, it's any of the highest end cameras as well: you're simply not going to get high end audio technology, at the level of dedicated units.

Then there are the dreaded MA-100 and MA-200. They are not pro units. They use active electronics, they're not high end construction, they're noisy. And of course the headphone system on the Canon is just dumb.

Good news... for less than $600 (from Zotz) you can get a beautiful 2 channel Sound Devices MixPre (the guys who designed teh FP24 Shure field mixer...in fact this is that unit). Pristine Lundahl tecnology, metering, slate and tone generator, source and feed monitoring, variable limiting and roll off filters etc.

My issue was that the specs of the inherent DV medium should absolutely provide the quality for all but the biggest (feature film) work...and even there, A good engineer could work with it.

The problem was/is the inputs...pres...monitoring...metering are an after thought. By throwing away the MA-100, using the MixPre with a pair of XLR to RCA cables with 15db resistors (or just as functional but not as pro/rugged) a stereo mini to RCA cable coming out of the tape out, you can get real quality audio from the XL1, and monitor it for real by feeding the signal through the Mix Pre as well for pre/post monitoring.

The bottom line is anyone looking to do real audio for video needs to spend a few hundred dollars more...and that's not a lot to ask. Of course for bigger multi-source shoots you need more technology and a dedicated recorder, but for the vast majority of work being done on these systems...including the high end work, the audio can be just as good as the video. I see the bigger issue to be whether camera moves can accomodate recording directly to the camera. The audio quality itself isn't the issue.

Hi Everyone,

I just got my order from B and H photo...and I had a question about the MA 100

I hook it up and attach my new shotgun mic to it and it is coming in Stereo which means that I can only hear it on one channel.

Is there a way to change it so that the audio is coming in on both the left and right??

BTW - I am hooking it up on the audio 1 RCA jacks with the littel 1/8 inch jack on the back of the handle.

Which adapter is better, the MA 100 or the BechTech DXA - 4C?

Thanks
Jay

For stereo, I bought a Y cable-- one XLR female to 2 XLR male. You just plug one into each input on the MA100

Many people mix/pan the single channel in post using their NLE or sound editing program.

So if you mix pan your just "recreating" the sense of stereo?

For example...the stock mic that came with the canon XL1s...although it might not have been the best mic...it was stereo...

For example...I tape a car driving by...you could really sense that that car...by the audio was driving by.

So now with mix and pan...you have to re-create that effect on your own??

BUT I also bought the beachTech XLR adaptor...which has the option of stereo OR mono switch...so is it better to record in mono and leave as that...or is better to record on the stereo setting, then mix and pan...if needed.


A few other question, while I am writing...

Audio 2--can seem to get any signial what so ever...is there a menu seeting on the camera?? This is the RCA jack on the handle that say "audio 2"

I just got the sienhiemer evolution 100 wireless mic system and the signal seems a bit quiet...anyone experience that and is there a gain control tha tI might be missing??

Thanks for all your suggestions, I really appreciate it!

To record from Audio 2 inputs you hve to set the camcorder to 4-channel mode, from the menu.

Recording with one mic is not stereo, (unless you are using a stereo mic). You can pan a single source to the left, center or right to place on the audio image when listened to in stereo. but it is still a mono signal. But them, most recorded music is comprised of a series of mono sources that are mixed/blended to create a stereo production.

If the wireles smic level is very low, check the audio input sensitivity settings. If using Audio 1 input, you may find the level set on LINE level, again, a menu item for the Audio 1 inputs.

yea I had a similar question awhile back with my mono mic and my MA200. Don is absolutley right in that no matter what, if you use a mono mic, it's going to be mono, regardless of whether you hear it in both channels in production or post production.

I find it very annoying to only listen to one channel when recording dialogue, so I went out and bought a Y adapter made by Hosa. Do a search at BH. Works perfectly, and according to people here, using the Y adapter does not in any way degrade the audio. It's the same thing as panning across in post.

So, if I go out and buy a true stereo mic how does it hook up to my XL-1. Are there two xlr cables that go into each female connector on the MA-100 on a stereo mic or what? Is a true stereo mic that you buy and put on the XL-1 going to be better than the one the XL-1 comes with?

Was recording a live, got 2 xlr outs from the mixer at the venue. hooked it up on the MA 100, set audio to line, but the sound level was very high. I tried adjusting the level with the mixer, but when they set level normal it would crack and I will have to turn it down on my side, but there is so much noise then. We tried adjusting to the best level, but it ended up having alot of
turns out I set it so low that the sound of it was totally unusable. Should've done some research. XLR and RCA signal different ranges of level...

What do you guys use to lower the level in such situations? Would a MA 200 or a beachtek DXA-6 or pads(what we call in japan) work? I:m looking into other than an expensive mixer.
Can someone tell me what they use?
Thanks,
Takeshi

I can't remember if the ATT (attenuator) setting works on the line in. Give it a try as it will cut the gain by around 20db. The manual says "a" microphone which could mean an external source. If you have the Audio Input setting in the menu as Audio 1 IN set to LINE it might work.

Adrian,
I do remember fidling around with the menu. looking for something like that.
I was shooting two cams one xl1 and one xl1s. I did use the xl1 for xlr input and xl1s cam-mic. (I didn't know the xl1 too much. thought it would be about the same with xl1s. I am more familiar with the xl1s) I don't have the older xl1 by me now to confirm, but I was not able to get any sound out of att20 or mic. I HAD to set it to 'line' to get any signal. I should've maybe taken the XL1s to input the xlr mixer out. Might've been able to do it that way. I'd have to check. I should have before the shoot. Oh well. I learned the hard way I guess.

etra.
The former XL1 and the newer xl1s has a totally different setup with picture quality as well. I had so much trouble shooting. (only 1 op. me! for 2 cams 20m apart from each other) The range in luminance is totally different. For the xl1, the spotlights where all washed out the black total black. had to set the exposure shift to minus, yet I walk up to the xl1s to see the picture is perfectly capturing the dark graduation to highlights with the same settings. yet again I should've game more time to test things out.
Thanks,
Takeshi


I have not yet editted the piece, but I will have a hard time with the color correcting. I don't know if it's even possible to match them.

MA100 is designed for mic level. Line level is too high, can cause clipping when signal reaches about -7 dBV. Best to use an inline attenuator when using the MA100 with line level sources.

Alternatively, use the RCA input and set to line level. Feed it the tape recorder output from the mixer, if there is one.

Single point stereo mics like the AT-822 are a bit better sounding than the standard Canon mic, come with the appropraite connector for the mic jack. Another, lower cost model, is the Sony ECM-MS957.

Other stereo mic such as the AT-825 have a pair of XLR connectorws what will work with the MA-100/200.

<<<<What do you guys use to lower the level in such situations? Would a MA 200 or a beachtek DXA-6 or pads(what we call in japan) work? I:m looking into other than an expensive mixer.
Can someone tell me what they use? >>>>

I use the DXA-6 on both XL1 and VX2K.
A great box that provides not only two channels
of phantom, but also has a switch for being able to take a mono
mic/mix and record it to both channels. Beachtek has -50dBu pads,
so when you switch (one or both) channels over to line level, you can
actually tame the +4dBu output of most mixers. The only real issue for
me is that I wish the pad were -30dBu as -50 is too much for -10
line level and WAY too much attenuation for some of the hotter mics
like the Sennheiser ME66-67/K6, which you have to barely crack open
when not using attenuation. Maybe the next generation will have
a selection of attenuation strength.

The sound of the DXA-6 is very good (Jay Rose of DV mag concurs),
and I have nothing but great things to say about Beachtek's
customer service.

Best,

I always use a portable field stereo field mixer such as a Shure FP32b between the outs of the house PA and my recording inputs. That way I can insure that I am sending the proper level to my inputs. The built-in limiter of the FP32b also helps to act as a "brick wall" against overload with unexpected high transient peaks in the program audio.

For those times when I cannot go in with my own mixer, I will always make sure I carry a couple of Shure A15AS in-line XLR attenuators. Always a good idea to carry a couple of these if you expect to be dealing with a house sound feed:
http://www.shure.com/accessories/a15as.asp?PN=Problem%20Solvers

- don

Thank you Don adn Jacques,

I used to use a Shure 3 ch mixer for ENG work in News(for get the make), That would be a great solution, But as for in an indi-production, I think I will go with DXA-6. Didn't know they have -50dBu pads. I would think I should get those in-line attenuetors as well.

Jacques, that's kinda the discrit\ption I was looking for thanks again.
Takeshi

Okay, called me dopey for asking this, but
I've only used this thing as a shoulder mount
up to this point -

If I take a single line feed out of a house board, and plug it into say, the L XLR port
on the MA-100, I'll ONLY be getting composite
stereo sound (from the board) on the LEFT
channel of my XL-1 right?

SO I would need a Y splitter to have that
composite sound on both L & R correct?

(filming would be fun if it wasn't for
the sound)

You need to know more about the House Board. Are they feeding you only one channel or is it a mix (mono)? Is the feed line level, mic level? Will you need to attenuate the board feed?

mix feed, line level

Line level is too high for the MA-100 inputs. It is likely to cause clipping. Use a mic level feed, and set the Audio1 input sensitivity to MIC ATT or MIC depending on whether the mic output level is -35 or -55 dBV.

If you have to use a line level feed, obtain an inline attenuator to reduce the signal appropriately.

Mixer output is typically on the order of +4 dBu, but there are variations so consult the loal expert on the house board to be sure.

back to my original question, do I need to
plug something into BOTH XLR jacks (on the
MA-100) to be able to record on both L and
R sides

Yes, you'll need a Y splitter. But the other issues Don mentioned are very significant and will effect your audio recording. Failure to get a proper audio match could make your recorded audio unusable.

When I have recorded audio from the desk I used an two mono XLR to RCA adapters and connected to the camera not the MA100

Audio was ok but i think would have sounded better by just using the XL1s mic