Thanks alot for the help! I did mean the colored inputs on the XL1s not the MA-100 - That's what I get for trying to type on 4 hours sleep!

Gents:

I am planning to build a custom base/back for my XL1 that will, as well as distribute power and video in various ways, also provide 4 XLR jacks for input a la the MA200. I have been reading your posts here and want to ask for advice on this.

My intention was to provide balanced audio inputs so that an external mixer or long mike cord could be used, but also allow for wireless mikes to be mounted directly to the camera in other circumstances. In other words, multiple uses including mike and line at various lengths.

It sounds like the Beachtek units have the correct circuitry to do all this, and more versatility than the MA200. My intention is to rehouse the innards of two Beachteks into my new custom housing.

Any thoughts, suggestions, red flags anyone can think of?

Thank you in advance!

Since you plan to pitch the Beachtek box and only use the innards, you may find it lower cost to buy good audio transformers, pots, switches, and XLR connectors and not pay for the Beachtek packaging and profit.

OK as long as the time you spend doing it does not represent a cost to you since even at a measly $10/hour, you will probably spend far more time than the cost of a MA-200, or a pair of Beachteks or Studio Ones doing this project.

Note many folks feel that the Studio One is better than the Beacktek. (But I have no personal experience with both to make a judgement.)

DPalomaki,

I currently have an MA100 on my XL-1 and I've been using a BeachTek unit with my Sony TRV900. I now have an XL-1s and I'm thinking of buying an MA200. The only advantage I see to the 200 over the 100 is a video output and an extra set of XLRs. I think the 200, like the 100, comes with the plate to attach the dual battery charger. I'll be using both XL-1 cameras in a two camera shoot, fed from the same mixer.

There's a question somewhere in here somewhere. I was planning on using the BeachTek in lieu of the MA200 and I'm still wondering if the MA200 worth the expense. The BeachTek has dual pots and a stereo/mono toggle as well as a mic/line switch. But the dual battery holder of the MA200 is a big plus and I'm not sure it can be rigged some other way.

Any thoughts on the issue? (Sorry for the verbiage of the question.)

The MA-200 also offer some additional adjustment for the shoulder pad portion.

If you do not neet the second pair of XLR inputs on the MA-200, consider a MA-100, cheaper thatn a Beachtek and you have the mounting plate and shoulder rest. You could use the Beachtek with the MA-100 if/when you need four XLR inputs.

I am trying to understand the various differences between the Beachtek and the Studio 1 XLRPRO. It appears that the Studio 1 product comes more recommended, but it outputs a stereo miniplug (mike level) where the Beachtek outputs dual RCA's (line level). So really they are not doing exactly the same thing...

I am also trying to understand how the MA 200 connects to the XL1s; does it output two sets of RCA's, for the Line 1 and Line 2 connectors (on the back and on the handle) or does it also output a miniplug for the mike connection?

Still trying to build a unit that does the job of the MA200 better and with more versatility...

The MA200 has two cables with RCA connectors hardwired to the XLR Audio1-In jacks on the adapter . These can be plugged into either Audio1 or 2 jacks on the XL1. It also has two RCA jacks that are internally connected to the XLR Audio2-In jacks on the MA200. Included with the MA200 is a short cable for connecting these Audio2 RCA jacks to either Audio 1 or 2 RCA jacks on the XL1. I hope that isn't too confusing.

I believe that only Mic levels are available as output from the MA200 as well as the Beachtek units. The problem with inputting line levels to the MA200 was discussed earlier in this thread. Don't do it!

The Beachtek units can accept either line or mic levels, but output to the camera is mic level even though it might have RCA plugs. I could be wrong about that, but I contacted Beachtek to see if my DXA-4S, which is the Sony TRV model, could be used with the XL1 and they said that internally it was the same as the unit designed for the XL1. It could be connected to the mic input with supplied mini plug or by using a mini plug/RCA adapter, connected to Audio 1 or 2.

<<or does it also output a miniplug for the mike connection? >>

There is no miniplug on the MA200 for connecting to the mic input although with adapters it could be done. The miniplug that you may have seen in pictures of the MA200 is for DC power. The MA200 must be connected to the DC port on the back of the XL1 or it will not work.

Hello,

I'm having problems using an AKG C-2000 B condenser mic. with the MA-100 adaptor.

Is the DC plug on the adaptor for the so called "phantom power" some mic's require? Even if it is, this mic. still does not work. If I plug in a cheaper mic. that does not require "pp" it seems to work fine but quality is not there.

Hope someone might have encountered same issue and can help me.

Thanks!

The small cord on the MA-100 is to power only the MA-100 -- it has active electronics in it. There are no conditions under which the MA-100 will supply phantom power to an external mike. I use either a Mackie mixer, or a phantom power box for that purpose, depending on the need.

Thank you. I happen to have a Mackie, but can you recommend a separate phantom supply mfr? And there wouldn't be any conflicts w/ camera DC?

I have an Audio Technica 4-channel, although I believe that there are several others out there. I got mine from B&H. Most of the time, unless I'm strapped for room, I use the Mackie. It gives me more control over the audio. I've also found that, when running 100+ feet of XLR cable, stray hum has been more of an issue with the A-T box than the Mackie. Best to experiment.

Thank you again Vic. I'll check around. Also, looks like we can just yell across the lake!

You're welcome -- that's what these forums are all about, and you'll find an amazingly helpful, non-judgmental group here -- probably the best of all the boards.

Until you mentioned it, I didn't notice you were close -- these days, though, you'd have to yell loud to get through the damn snowstorm!

Cheers

I use the AKG C-1000S which requires phantom power. If power is not available from the mixer, a 9V battery can be placed inside the mic. Your model may not have that capability, but for those that want to use condenser mics connected directly to the camera without first going through a mixer, battery power is a simple alternative to external phantom power supplies.

MA100 or Beachtek? best mic? lav? wireless?

I'm expecting my new XL1s to arrive this week and am looking int the sound equipment I should buy. I've had some experience using a Beachtek with both the XL1 and the Sony VX2000, but havn't even touched an ma100.

I'll be using the camera for a variety of purposes. I'll be shooting narrative shorts (maybe even a feature length in the future), documentary, music videos for local bands and (because I also have to eat) wedding and business/corporate videos.

I've followed several threads on this forum and have gotten a few insights (pluses on the Beachtek being more easily accepting line inputs, etc.) I had some bad experiences with the Beachtek on the VX2000 (hiss and a little hum - many people had the same problems), but since Im getting an XL1s, I wanted to get some input on which might work better for the types of videos I'll be shooting.

Also, what are some of the best mics (shotgun, lav, wireless) - and then - what are some of the best mic for someone on a budget (I don't want to sacrifice quality though).

Derrick

In addition to XLR inputs, the MA-100 also provides a better shoulder rest -- if that's not a concern, the Beachtek gives you more versatility. I've used both, and I've never experienced a hum issue with either. I suspect you had something external going on. Since the Beachtek is a passive device, it's not subject to overloading, as is the MA-100.

On the subject of microphones, there are entire books written about the subject. No one genre of mic will do it all. They need to be tailored to the situation. There is quite a bit of info on various adapters, mics, etc. on these boards, and in the articles on the XL-1 Watchdog pages. Search around a little -- there's a wealth of knowledge. In the audio arena, there is a good forum moderated by Jay Rose (DV Magazine audio editor) at the dv.com forums.

Enjoy spending the money -- these things absorb it like a sponge!

Jay Rose is well worth a cruise through.

Your VX2000 problem may well have been related to early problems with VX2000. That problem has been resolved.

You can spend lots of money on mics. Best thing is to stay with the brand names. Sennheiser, Audio-Technia, Lectsonics, etc all make great equipment.

Cruise through the threads here on mics and stuff and you will find loads.

Nathan Gifford

Does anyone have any tips on how to use a Wireless Mic and the XL-1's mic both going into the MA-100. You see I want to use the Xl-1's Mic in 16 Bit mode while still using the Wireless mic as well. The thing I hate is that if you only have one Wireless mic and you want to record in 16 bit you only get the one channel.

Thanks,

Mat Sutor

Your question is discussed in the following thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=502&highlight=xl1+mic

Thanks, Ed... I suppose this should be in a FAQ somewhere.

Ok, I'm using a balanced "vocal" mic [not sure, but I think it's an EV @$150], about 30' cord and only one channel @48k. XL1S. Shortest cord that'll do the job.

I seem to have a good amount of noise (ie bad s/n) that is better with a pd150. Okay, I admit to using ACG on both. I understand this will pump up the gain during soft passages, but even at normal levels, the s/n is poor, IMO.

First with only one xlr input, should I connect both rca plugs? Is it possible I'm getting some noise because the open channel is causing the gain to pump up and it bleeds to the channel in use?

Isn't y-cording the one into two channels going to also cause some degradation of signal?

What do you recommend for a solo xlr input?

What model is the mic? Condensor or dynamic?

How are you connecting the mic to the XL1s?

How are you monitoring the noise level?
How is the nosie level in manual gain mode?

Is the noise in one channel more thtn the other?

Y-cording may result in some loss of level, whether or not this is serious depends on the precise configuration and impedances involved.

I use my XL1S predominately for weddings where I put a cordless mic on the officiator and the groom. I have been using 2x Azden 400UDR's for about a year but they are extremely heavy, and my MA-100 finally broke (the little duck-bill like piece that is wedged in the back of the XL1 broke off).

I also find the weight too uncomfortable for longer periods of handheld work.

I've just ordered the MA-200 and 2x Samson UM32's.

Does anyone else use this combination - please share your experiences.

Is anyone else using 2x cordless mic's with the XL1/S - What brand and models?

thanks in advance,
Keith

Consider the VariZoom Media Pro (called the SP7 shoulder brace on the Watchdog). It's big enough and sturdy enough for all this plus an XLR adapter. www.dvinfo.net/xl1.htm > Articles Menu > Support Options > SP7 Shoulder Brace. Hope this helps,

Thanks Chris,

I tried the SP7 at the WEVA Expo last August and although its a nice accessory, I don't think its for me

The style of shooting I do, requires equipment that can be set up and packed up quickly (eg between the wedding ceremony and the cocktail hour) I like the fact that I can fit the XL1 in my camera bag with the MA-100 and wireless receiver attached. I would have to desemble the SP7 before trasporting between venues and this would waste valuable time.

It also never quite felt comfortable to me, although a mate of mine liked the way it felt.

My MA-100 has a noise problem. This is not uncommon from what I gather. I've spoken with several other XL1 owners around the bay area whom have had similar issues with their MA-100s.
A local pro audio place I spoke with said that it may be a grounding problem and a simple fix may be to construct a ground out of two alligator clips and a piece of wire. Run a clip from the MA-100 and the other to a grounded source and it should take away the noise.

BTW- It has also happened with my Beachtek once in awhile.

I'm not a "mic" guy, but it's a ElectroVoice n/d 257B dynamic cardioid. XLR mic to MA100. That's it. I'm guessing that maybe it's just low output, but maybe I'm wrong.

The MA-100 should be rather quiet. If you are getting high noise, there may be a problem somewhere in the system, perhaps an open ground.

Assuming that the N/D 257 is similar to the N/D 257 ther shoudl be adequate output if the talent is close miked (within a foot or two).

I have a question regarding the MA-100. There are two XLR inputs and I assumed that I could go from the XLR out on my wireless receiver into one of the XLR inputs and from the XLR out on my shotgun to the other input. Is this possible? If not what do I do? Do I have to go XLR out on the shotgun to the Audio 2 jacks?

Yes. you can. However, you would do well to have the two sources at about the same level, especailly if feeding it to the Audio 1 input. This minimizes possible issues with level balance between the cahnnels.

Mr C.

If you are using an XL1s, you may want to set the "Rec Level"switch to "M" or manual so the camera's AGC is not bringing up a channel that may have its mic turned off.

Your technique is very common. Use the shotgun for Nat. sound and backup audio in case the wireless fails while using the wireless for the Talant's dialoge.

Note: the MA-100 does not provide Phantom power for mics so your shotgun will need to have a battery option (ie: A-T 835b)

Cheers.

I have a MA100 and it is very quiet, I have used it with ev mics and the Sure SM58, and both were quiet. On "low" output mics, you need to add a Mic pre-amp to compensate, rather than crank up the gain in the XL (which will cause noise.) also turn off the auto level control and set level manually. Keep peaks below "0".
aholston

hi
one little question on the side,. do you need the 'sennheiser k6' to run the 'sennheiser ME66 or can MA-100 take care of it?
sorry for this newbee question,.
i need to investigate before i buy both Camera and things to go with it,.:)

tHx

You do need the K6 to power the ME66 element for use with the MA-100. The K6 allows the use of battery or phantom power.

The K6P requires phantom power and is not suitable for use with the MA-100 unless you have a source of pahtompower.

The K6 is the best way to go. Allowing you to use battery power when in the field and using on camera, or phantom power when you have it available. aholston

ok thanks guys.


this is a great forum!

What circuitry, if any, is inside the MA-100 (or 200, for that matter)? Do actually supply a balanced line conversion, or do they simply convert the connectors for convenience?

Unbalanced. Don might know something about what else is going on inside.

What circuitry, if any, is inside the MA-100 (or 200, for that matter)? Do actually supply a balanced line conversion, or do they simply convert the connectors for convenience?

The circuits are based on operational amplifiers, which are connected in a way do a balanced to unbalanced conversion. The wiring specifics are hiddend in the integrated circuits, but there are a number of published circuits for this purpose. The input is balanced, so it provides the common mode rejection of a balanced input. The output is single ended (not balanced). And the unit provides about 6 dB of gain to boot.

Thank you, Don, and apologies to all for the duplicated post (I was tempted to drop it in one more time just to be really annoying).

Now, other than providing additional volume controls, what do the Beachtek or Studio 1 units do above and beyond the MA100? I have heard the Studio 1 is quieter, but being built for the mike input is not so great considering we have those RCA jacks on the XL1. And now they are apparently only making units that are intended to be worn on the built, presumably to avoid noise/interference issues.

The reason I am wondering about all this is because I am finally moving forward on making my long-threatened custom base for the XL1 that, among other things, will have power, audio and video distribution with the appropriate connectors to accomodate my film accessories. I intend to build in two XLR connectors and am wondering about how much circuitry I will need to do a good job. Looks like I will be employing an engineer to do the wiring & want to give him as much info on the audio needs as possible (they are a lot more complicated, apparently, than the power and video which just requires shielding.

The Beachtek and Studio One are passive devices (no possibility for gain) that use transformers for the balanced-to-unbalanced conversion. FOr this reason,they could be lower noise, but may not be in some environments, especially of the transformer is not well shielded.) They offer some options as to high/low level input and some grounding options.

The MA-100 is designed for mic-level input will clip/saturate if you give it a line-level input.

Which is better for your application? I really can't answer that.

As Don stated;

Beachtek and Studio One are passive devices, this, among other things, means, that they do NOT require an external power source, and usually employ transformers. The MA100/200and boxes like Sounddevices are active devices, and require a power source (your first hint at which type you are using). Passive devices most always (better ones anyway) and some active devices employ transformers. Active boxes can also employ the "impedance" balanced outputs using amps. To do the conversion from High Z to Lo Z, bal. to unbal. norm. used fop mics.

Balanced refers to the fact that there are two symmetrical signal lines and one ground, while unbalanced uses just one signal line in reference to ground.
The balanced input signal is then converted to an unbalanced output through an impedance matching transformer.

The following is a quote from Sounddevices:
"…the best type of topology for inputs or outputs (but especially inputs) is one which uses a high-quality transformer, as transformers provide galvanic isolation and typically provide the superior common-mode and RF rejection compared to non-transformer balanced inputs or outputs. However, when a transformer-balanced output driver is not practical, Sound Devices feels that the "impedance" balanced output is the best. ("Impedance" balanced is really a misnomer - it is simply a truly "balanced" output stage.) This topology has equal impedances from pin 2 to ground and from pin 3 to ground; however, only pin 2 is driven with signal voltage. It provides common-mode rejection of unwanted noise into a balanced output just like an "active" balanced or a transformer balanced output stage. This topology is not new at all, it has been used for years in audio equipment. It works equally well with line-level or mic-level signals - Neumann microphones are one of many examples of equipment utilizing this topology."
The advantages of the "impedance" balanced output topology are:
1. Stability issues that exist with "cross-coupled" balanced outputs are eliminated.
2. Unbalancing the output is easy- pin 3 can be either grounded or ungrounded, and it will work fine.
3. There is no 6 dB loss of signal going from balanced to unbalanced output as there is with a standard active balanced output.
4. It uses less parts and is therefore more reliable.
The only real caveat with the "impedance" balanced output is that it cannot provide inversion of the signal polarity, as pin 3 is not driven."

The common misperception is that a balanced output stage needs to have equal and opposite signals on pins 2 and 3 of the XLR connector (or tip and ring of a 1/4" connector). Actually, what defines a system as balanced is that the impedances from pin 2 to ground and from pin 3 to ground are both equal. The signal(s) appearing at the output pins has nothing to do with whether the output stage is balanced or not. Bill Whitlock, President of Jensen Transformers and a noted authority on this topic, offers an excellent overview on balanced and unbalanced systems in his paper, Interconnection of Balanced and Unbalanced Equipment.

Hopefully, this explanation has been a help. If you understand it all, than a job as an audio engineer may be in the wings for you!

As Don noted, which way to go -- is your choice based on what you want to accomplish. I would recommend buying componets that can be connected to meet your goal, rather than building, unless, of course, you are an audio engineer.

Thank you so much fellas, that's a world of info and ummm--no, I don't understand it, but then again that's what audio guys are for! I will definitely pass it on to the person that makes up my box for me, though.

Gee whiz. This could be a Watchdog article.

Your deal too, Charles, when it's built... I want pictures.

You'll get 'em Chris, no doubt. When I get through with this camera--hoo boy. (And then the XL2 will come out).

Charles,

You might want to check out these folks http://www.sounddevices.com/index.html They are the people that Al quoted above. They have two very nice products that you might be interested in. If not for purchase, ideas for your own adapter. The first is the MM-1, I've had one for about a month now and absolutly love. The specs are out of sight compared to the Studio 1 and Beachtek. The second is the MP-1, basically the same, but without the headphone monitoring.

Jeff

Jeff has a very good point. The Sounddevices MM1 is head and sholders above the others. Also check out the MixPre, a full featured 2-chan. XLR-in/XLR-out and unbal out mixer w/mic. power(unit is batt. powered) an, is not much bigger than the MM1. It has tha advantage of adding "pan" to each input and as well as headphone monitoring. It can be used both "on" and "off" the camera for seperate "soundman" operation. Prices run about $700-800 for this very ncie and rugged unit.

I have just started experimenting with the MA100.

With a super cartoid EV mic connected I cannot seem to get a signal past about -50dB. Have tried both inputs and the other is even worse. Is it possible that my MA-100 is faulty?

Cheers
Andrew