I am about to order PV-GS400 and Raynox HD-5000PRO Super Wideangle conversion lens. And I am considering UV and Polarizer filters for the camera. Will the members be able to clarify whether I need 43mm or 62mm filters (and hood) for the PV-GS400 & HD-5000PRO set-up? Any information on this such as the necessity of step-up or step-down rings would be greatly appreciated. I would welcome brand recommendations as well.

Thanks a lot!

Michael

You need a 62mm filter for the Raynox. Get the Hoya multicoated thins (try 2filter.com) for it to cut down on vignetting and flare. The cost of the lens plus the Hoyas works out to several hundred dollars - so now you have to worry about protecting your filters as well as the lens. I bought a B&W 62mm metal hood (for WA lenses) from B&H to go with the lens. The Raynox is actually 37mm at the thread-in point and comes with its own adapter rings, but they're plastic. I bought a generic metal one for my gs100 just because it made me feel more secure. Probably a longer life battery is as important as the WA. I would be sure to get one (or maybe two, depending on how much shooting you plan to do).

Or, you could get a P series Cokin system with a 62mm adapter. Then, you could stack up to 3 4x4cm Cokin filters in front of the lens. Cokin also makes a hood that clips to the filter holder.

Guy, would the P system be light weight? Could be good if so, as the gs100 has a relatively small body and adding the Raynox lens + hood to the front makes it front heavy (not as bad as when adding the Pana WA, though). The 400 is even smaller, so anything that cuts down on weight to the front would probably be helpful. Of course, if you use a tripod all the time, it may not matter.

Pat,
The filter system is light weight. I don't notice any imbalance on my DV953 with the A system. I suspect the P system is similar. Now it does extend the center of gravity forward on the camera a bit. Especially if you have 3 filters and a hood on.

I suggested the P system because it allows for larger diameter lenses. The A system, which is a little smaller, goes up to 62mm diameter. You may get some vignetting with very wide angle lenses with the A system.

BTW, you can stack the filter holders. So, you could have 6 filters, or more, in front of the lens...

There are pix of the Cokin system in the DV953 Album on my website.

Cokin System (http://www.cokin.com)

Thanks a million to Patricia and Guy! I am rather inexperienced, currently filming high school activities with almost two-year old Panasonic PV-DV702 (with no accessories) and Canon PowerShot Pro 1 with 58 mm B+W MRC UV and Hoya HMC Cir-Polarizing filters. While filming school plays, etc., I’ve come to realize that I need a better video camera, to say the very least, wider angle and better low light performance. As my son goes to college this fall, I feel that it is time to move onto the next level.

I will definitely buy at least one longer life battery for PV-GS400. If I purchase 62mm UV and polarizer, could I stack the filters to the front end of the wide angle conversion lens? If so, then where exactly is the 62mm hood going? Can Patricia tell me the brand name of the metal adapter ring she is using? Will Guy elaborate on what the P series Cokin system is all about? Again, I am relatively new to this area.

Patricia raised a concern that Raynox lens + hood to 400 might be front heavy to the small body of 400. Though I decided on 400, I am still open to other wide angle options. If the members have a better idea on what the ideal 400 + wide angle set-up should be like, please post a reply or email to me directly. I would very much like hear about brand recommendations too.

MR,
If you use circular screw on filters, you will have to find a hood that screws onto the outer filter. You can, of course, stack circular filters but after 2 you may get vignetting with a WA lens.

It is hard to describe the Cokin system. It would be better to go to their site and look through the info there. But, basically the system is a square holder for up to 3 square plain glass filters. The filters slide into the holder in front of the lens. The holder uses an adapter ring that looks like a stepup ring but has no front thread. The holder slides down over the outer flange of the stepup ring (adapter) and locks in place. The filters are wide and tall enough to work with the widest angle of the DV953. Cokin also makes circular filters that mount into the holder and can be adjusted...for example, the polarizer filter. So, with this system, you don't need to buy screw in filters.

The Hoya thins are double-threaded, so you can thread something like the B&W metal hood I mentioned (or any hood of your choice) into the front. I think Guy knows of other WAs out there; the only two I have used are the Raynox and the Pana (which is much heavier than the Raynox and has no threading at the front for inserting filters).

Anything (except maybe a filter) you add to the front of the gs400 is going to throw off the balance - it's just a fact of life with a cam that small.

If low light performance is a concern, maybe you should test out some other cams, too. We don't know yet how well the gs400 will perform in low light conditions - though the suspicion is that it isn't going to be great. There's a low light mode for it, but it's probably similar to my gs100 and you will get grainier footage shooting in that mode. I use it all the time and really like it, but I don't have professional standards. Everyone says for low light performance in a hand-holdable cam you can't beat the Sony VXs, but they're larger and higher priced. On the other hand, if you're filming school plays, etc., it may be worth your checking out. The VX2100 is at least available on the market right now and you can probably try one out at a good camera retail store.

Thank you again to Patricia and Guy! Since VX2100 is outside of my budget, wouldn’t it better for me to purchase 400 and 43mm filters for it, to start with, given that there might be vignetting and weight balance issues with a wide angle? I might purchase a wide angle later on, using it with 400 (without any filters for the camera or wide angle lens if necessary to get the best results). By the way, my filming of school palys is rather amateurish and for family viewing only.

Michael

IMO, the must-have accessories to start-up are as follows:

1. extra battery (genuine Pany, equivalent or whatever). get the biggest one your budget will allow.

2. full time protetion of the lens glass. you can choose between an MC Protector (clear glass) or MC UV.


Filter for bright outdoors: I am using both ND4 and ND8m with Excellent results. I simply screw the ND on top of the MC protector. I notice you're using a circular polarizer for your Pro1. I read somewhere that all you need for a videocam is a linear polarizer (which costs like 1/3 or 1/4 that of circular one).

I dont know if Panasonic sells its 43mm filter set in the US. The set consists of MC Protector and ND8.

Other accessories:
Try using the cam first and decide whether you really need any lens converter. At its widest setting, the 35mm equivalent focal length of the 400 is 44.5mm. Using widescreen, I guesstimate something like 40-41mm. Probably, that would suffice most of your needs. I had one guy from LA who asked me to get him a wideconverter because he needed to shoot from about 10-15 feet a certain horizontal angle of view. But before he made the final decision, he had me measure the horizontal length covered by the MX5K at its widest from 10-15 feet :-)).

By the way, the GS400 by itself is a tad front heavy because of its larger and longer lens block (compared to the GS100). It's not that bad though, and I have learned to appreciate why the Sony's using 1/4.7" CCDs exhibit similar weight distribution imbalance. That's quite a lot of air (and paper perhaps) inside the lens barrel of the 953 and the GS100 :-(.

The cokin filter system is at best flimsy and does not provide very good lens shading. the top of the socalled shade is wide open.

the setup can be made to work using black wrap (matt black foil) which is available at any big camera supply like markertek ore B&H.

it's also possible to take a 1 to 1 1/2" wide piece of black waist band elastic and stitch it into a loop. The Black loop will then stretch over the open top of the filter holder and sun shield.

The better option is to invest in a Hi Tech or a Lee filterholder. You need the same workarounds for light leakage but to a lesser extent. the quality of the adapter, components and filters is a tad better as well.

If you want to go the whole nine yards you can buy a cavision 3x3 mattbox. This will accept3x3, 3x4, resin or glass filters. adapter frames are also available for the P size to fit into a 3x3 frame. The base 3x3 was $200 with the all metal calmpon going for $250. A mini set of rods and supports brackets was an additional $100/

You could also buy a step up ring and mount oversized circular filters and guarantee no vignetting. i agree with pat that Hoya make excellent filters, coated and otherwise. I stoped buying Tiffin because of quality concerns. (delivery as well)

Cavision (www.cavision.com)
Lee Filters (http://www.leefilters.com/CP.asp?PageID=119)
Hitech (http://www.2filter.com/prices/htpackages.html)
Hitech home (http://www.formatt.co.uk/hitech/default.asp)

Do a search the sunshade/ filter frame has been done many times.

Guy,

I also have the Cokin A system on my 953. I like it. I was impressed by the fact that I can stack additional holders and or an additonal lens hood section on the front of it. Bought it at a local photographic place that specializes in still cameras.

It works very well and does not add much weight to the front of the camera. Just shot some footage in 16x9 yesterday with the half blue filter to help enhance the sky.

Funny thing is, I thought I was the only one that setup stuck on the front of their 953.

If anyone else is consideriing this system, I give it a thumbs up.

regards,

<<<-- Originally posted by Patricia Kim : You need a 62mm filter for the Raynox. Get the Hoya multicoated thins (try 2filter.com) for it to cut down on vignetting and flare. The cost of the lens plus the Hoyas works out to several hundred dollars - so now you have to worry about protecting your filters as well as the lens.

Hey Pat, I met a friend today who also owns a Raynox 5000 and he had a slightly cheaper alternative to the Hoya thins. He screwed a 62-72 step-up ring and then attached an ordinary 72mm MC protector. No vignetting at all. He ended up spending less than $30 instead of at least $40.

Someone else suggested to me once using the larger mm filter. It's a good idea, I just keep overlooking it because, unlike the guys on this board, who think bigger is better and more professional looking, I keep wanting my cam to be smaller so that I can manage it.

The other interesting thing is the way people feel about protective filters. I use the word "feel," because according to Frank G., dv resolution is such that the glass on the filter just doesn't matter that much. Doesn't stop everyone from looking for "water" glass, or whatever it's called, instead of the green stuff.

So when are you getting a gs400?

<<<-- Originally posted by Patricia Kim :
So when are you getting a gs400? -->>>

Price is getting better every week (the 1st black GS400 that I sold is cheaper than the cheapest black GS100) and my summer shooting days are over. My next big event is in October. That's my target :-).

I'm also using a Raynox HD-5000PRO WA with my GS400. There is no vignetting at all.
Furthermore I bought a 62mm Kenko circular polarizer which fits on the front of the WA. No vignetting again.
To use the polarizer without the WA I got three adaptor rings. I know it's a bit stupid to use three rings, but the guy in the shop explained it's the easiest and cheapest way (43-52-58-62mm). After testing this setup for vignetting again, I decided to go with it as no black corners appeared.

Prices for the parts were as follows: WA 2900NT$ (85US$), polarizer 750NT$ (22US$) and the three adaptor rings together 350NT$ (10US$).

I feel the additional weight of 110g for the WA is no big deal to handle, maybe even more balanced if you put a big battery pack on the other end of the cam.

...just to let anyone know who considers to order the same parts online maybe...

Wow Andreas, you seem to get all the BEST deals in Taiwan for items made in Japan. Do you pay any sales taxes there?

BTW, what do you use to protect your 5000Pro (ordinary MC protector or MC UV or the Kenko Hoya thin filter?)

Allan, I think I just use the Kenko polarizer as protection. Maybe I check for a UV filter later or maybe a ND filter.

Sales tax... hmm, good question... I think I read somewhere that the rate is 5 percent here, but not sure. It's never mentioned on the products.

How's the barrel distortion with the Raynox on the GS400?

Rokta, there is an amazingly low amount of barrel distortion.
I tried to take some sample frame grabs and photo shots in different modes. But they are far from perfect, as I have no tripod yet and the lighting conditions were not good.
I also found the grabs using the wide conversion lens are not very clear, maybe due to further light reduction by the lens or problems with the auto focus ...or just the lens isn't really that good!?
I'll try to do some better grabs later. Anyway, you may take a look...

Video frame grabs without WA - normal (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_normal.zip) wide screen (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_wide.zip) pro cinema (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_procine.zip)
Video frame grabs withWA attached - normal (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_HD5000pro_normal.zip) wide screen (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_HD5000pro_wide.zip) pro cinema (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_video_HD5000pro_procine.zip)

Photo - without WA (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_photo_normal.jpg)
Photo - with WA attached (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/GS400_photo_HD5000pro.jpg)

Btw. on the GS400's LCD the gray frame with the small white arrows was screen filling! So you can see from these grabs how much of the recorded image the LCD hides.

I have to make a small correction regarding vignetting:
when I use the Raynox HD5000pro and Kenko 62mm polarizer together there appears a little vignetting in photo mode.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rokta Bija : How's the barrel distortion with the Raynox on the GS400? -->>>

Hm, there is some barrel distortion when you zoom full out. But not too bad IMHO. When I took the test grabs and photos earlier I zoomed in a bit, so there was almost no barrel distortion visible.

Andreas, The distortion doesn't look to bad but it does seem to have some focusing issues in the center vs. perimeter. Do you notice it much in normal shots?

Yes Rokta, you seem to be right. Near the perimeter the picture looks not so clear. I packed some video frames with different configurations, take a look and get your own opinion. You can also see the vignetting in different modes.

Kaohsiung City - Cultural Center (http://www.hakke-chemnitz.de/GS400/KHH_cc.zip) - file size is 11.8MB

The pack contains 18 BMP images.

Andreas,
Are you removing the GS400's hood before mounting the Raynox?

<<<-- Originally posted by Guy Bruner : Andreas,
Are you removing the GS400's hood before mounting the Raynox? -->>>

Yes Guy, I removed it. I use the original 37-43mm adaptor delivered with the Raynox directly attached to the GS400.
I was surprised to see so much vignetting, especially with Raynox and polarizer attached together. Should have done some more testing in the shop under better lighting conditions! :(
But anyway, the LCD hides some parts of the picture.

"But anyway, the LCD hides some parts of the picture."


Andreas, are you referring to both Video and Still Mode? (under Still mode, vignetting can occur even though you don't see it on LCD :-( - but personally, I never use Still mode :-)).

Please try this.
Attach a 62-72 adapter ring on your Raynox and try a 72mm filter. If that doesn't work, try to go up the next size.

Otherwise, don't attach anything on your Raynox. I think the biggest weakness of that Raynos is that it's native size is too small/narrow compared to the diameter of the GS400 glass (that's why I'm wondering if I should have gotten the 52mm or 58mm 6600 PRO instead.).


If it's any consolation, Pany has a disclaimer as regards vignetting even with its own line of lens converters (consumer line)

Allan, I mean the LCD panel does not display the full picture area that will be recorded, in both modes: still and video!

Regarding the glass size... yes, the GS400's filter diameter is 43mm, but the actual glas diameter is much smaller! I have to measure this later at home, but I think it's even smaller than the 37mm of the Raynox HD5000pro. Hm, the Raynox might actually also be even smaller than 37mm though.

OK, when I find some time I'll bother the guy in the cam shop again to let me test a 72mm filter! ;)
But as you can see from the sample frame grabs above, vignetting is even there in WIDE and ProCinema modes without the filter attached, only WA.

The 6600pro should be also worth a test, but it's only factor 0.66 instead of 0.5 for the 5000pro! Vignetting should be less an issue on a 0.66 even if had the same 37mm diameter.

My measuring showed that the Raynox HD5000Pro has an actual lens diameter of approximately 30mm on the back.
The GS400 also has a glas diameter of approximately 30mm, instead of 43mm for the filter ring.
So maybe I should try to get a thinner adapter ring from 37 to 43mm for my Raynox and test for vignetting again. The original included plastic one seems a little big to me.

The Pro6600 is a lot bigger and heavier than the 5500 Andreas. It doesn't come in 37mm thread. It comes in 3 thread sizes (43, 52 and 58mm).

Yes, I know Allan. I checked the Raynox site already.
Also the fact that it seems to have very low barrel distortion is very interesting... I think I'll take a look at it when I have time to go to the shop again.