double post edited

Ash, Tony,

Thanks, now if I could only fit a servo to the 14x. (large grin)

Being that I prefer to shoot totally manual I'm thinking the 14x is the one I want.

Anyone else care to comment?

Bill

The 16X can shoot totally manual...you simply disengage the Servo switch.

Without using the Tv or Av mode, is there any way to get a smooth iris change (rather than having a "stepped" look) on the 20x? Like the iris ring on a more professional camera lens (or like the old 14x full manual lens. I don't think the 16x has one, does it?). Wouldn't that be easier? I never shoot on auto, For example, if I need to go from inside to outside quickly. I shoot a lot off the shoulder, and I just think it's a hassle moving my hand from the focus and zoom rings down to the iris/shutter buttons, while keeping my eye in the viewfinder, fumbling around for the buttons. Wouldn't it just be easier if there was a ring next to the others? Or am I just being picky? Guess I'm used to the news cameras I used to use. Yes, I know it might be comparing apples and oranges...

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan. I'm afraid this is one of the "features" of the XL2. It's no consolation for you at the moment, but at least Canon did improve this when they designed the XH-A1. It has a smooth action iris ring that is so easy to use.

Richard

My only suggestion would be to shoot the scenes that you need to do indoor/outdoor transitions on in Auto...?

Richard...Thanks for the clarification.

Chris...I was thinking about that, but with the stuff I shoot, I have to keep rolling. You can't switch from manual mode to Av or Tv while the tape's still rolling and not get a black picture, can you? I'd hate to try it and mess up my transport if you can't.

Jonathan

There's a much easier way to switch between manual and auto modes than using the power dial. For manual mode, shoot in Tv (shutter priority mode) with the Exposure Lock button pressed. This is identical to shooting in Manual mode. Press the Exp. Lock button again to revert to auto exposure. Press it again to revert to manual exposure. Works like a charm, and is much better than Manual mode in that you can instantly switch to AE if you need it.

Thanks, Chris, I'll try it out. Never thought of that!

Jonathan

I too have discovered the autofocus noise, its like a constant clicking, very subtle but definatly not right. when fully zoomed in I can see the picture slightly moving with the clicks too, this is anoying, luckily my cam is still under warenty so I shal be asking advise from the shop. I will post a full report to let everyone know of my findings.

well I managed to swap my xl2 for a new one... guess what, this one makes the same noise, My concusion is is that this faint clicking noise is normal part of focusing and should be nothing to worry about... it did not effect my footage, appart from the fect that when recording distant sounds it may be best to turn of autofocus. hope this helps.

Hey everyone. Just upgraded XL1 user to XL2. Not sure if this normal but when I turn on the camera, the lenses makes a "click click" sound. Everything still works. ND filter. Zoom. AF. Everything. Should I be concerned?

Totally normal. Relax.

yea it's fine...

Here are the steps that every NEW XL2 owner goes through... myself included last October...

1. Open XL2 Box with great excitement.

2. Charge battery just long enough to run outside and film trees, or bumble bees for 5 minutes...

3. turn on camera and here horrid clicking sound...

4. post a thread here and call canon while freaking out...

I think these steps are actually in the manual too. Congratulations and Enjoy the camera!! I love mine and don't notice the clicking now.

Just Thought I'd expand a little on Matthew's steps......

5. Get footage into NLE for editing.

6. Freak out because footage doesn't look as good as expected.

7. Make another post about dissappointment with camera.

8. Do a little more reading in XL2 watchdog.

9. Figure out how to shoot full manual with custom settings.

10. Update previous post and state how pleased they are with the camera.

I think Canon should have put a label on the camera that reads:

"This is a professional DV camera, it will take some time to master"

Tony, the clicking noise is the optical image stabilizer engaging. If you look at the front of the lens when you power up the camera, you'll also see the front element wobbling in what appears to be an alarming way. This is completely normal.

Whew. What a relief... another thing is that.... the 16x lenses can zoom a lot faster than the 20x lenses, this is also normal right? 20x is longer therefore slower to zoom?

I think Canon should have put a label on the camera that reads:
"This is a professional DV camera, it will take some time to master"
ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!

Actually you can adjust the speed of the zoom by turning the small wheel just in front of the rocker bar. Bob

Actually you can adjust the speed of the zoom by turning the small wheel just in front of the rocker bar. Bob

Yea. I did that... it's still not as fast as the 16x. I guess its just how the 20x lenses are. Thanks for the advice.

This was a $180.00 lesson for me. The people at canon said that the lens was not ment to do this. Wish I had come here first.

Yes, one more time for the record:

Clicking in the 20x lens on power-up is normal, it's just the OIS calibrating itself.

There are basically 4 steps man..

1.) Assemble XL2
2.) Read manual, don't understand manual so you quit reading it.
3.) Turn on the XL2, start crying when you hear the lens clicking and sounds like its melting down.
3.) Repeat.

I know it's been discussed many times on here (I DID search and found many topics relating to it), so sorry for the redundancy...

Back focus went out of align on me roughly two weeks ago on the standard 20x zoom lens.

I found all sorts of threads related to it, but no one actually said how much canon charged for the fix.

Anyone?


The reason I ask is because the last time I dealt with the service center, it was a nighmare. They tried to charge me over $400 for the small repair needed (main fuse), and after consulting others on this site that had the same problem, I found they were only charged $200. I told that to the repair guy on the phone, and he immediately "revised" his quote to $200.

Cheers,

-brown

And by the way, this same back-focus issue is currently plaguing 3 other cameras I shoot on right now. My XL2, and two of my other shooters' XL1s's with the 16x.

Hello,

I have been very happy with my XL2 camera. I, however, have a question on the lens sensitivity.

I was filming within an arena whre the light are, unfortunately, not all the same. It easy to see with our own eyes. When you look at the light you will see that they are either red or white. The heat generated by those lights are then different and are visible by the lens.

For exemple, in filming a subject without moving/panning the camera I will be able to see in wave a redish and a white color on the camera.

A friend of mine is filming the same scene with it's Panasonic DVX100 and his lense will not show the samething.

Is there a setting on the camera that I could use to eliminate this. I like the fact that the lens is very sensitive but this way to sensitive. My clients do not appreciate this.

Thanks for helping !

Regards !

Daniel

Daniel, coming in a little late on this so maybe you have it figured by now? Do you have any footage? What you're refering to could be a host of things. Whatever it is, I'm sure it's correctable by properly setting up the camera. Was the camera on AUTO or MANUAL or some thing else? More details, please.

Thanks Eric for replying.

I did not figured it out yet.

I should have thought of providing more information as how my camera was setted up.

I will be filming once again in an arena on the week-end and I am trying to resolve this problem as soon as possible.

- The lens was set to manual focus.
- The white balance was set to 2 (impossible to set a white balance as there is too much difference from one end to another).
- I am filming figure skating which moves very quickly and I am using AV.
- I am not touching the iris button, it is setup to 2.something
- The Gaindb is set to 0
- The AE shift is set to 0

Are there any other information that I need to mention that would help ?

Thanks for helping !

Daniel

Daniel,

Use the indoor auto white balance if you can't set it up manually. Auto white balance 1 & 2 are custom presets and unless you set them for white balance the camera had no idea what the white balance was and you did not allow it to find out for itself.

The XL2 is a wonderful camera, enjoy.

I do not understand what you mean by "I will be able to see in wave a redish and a white color on the camera."

What shutter speed are you using?
What kind of lighting is it?

Thanks Eric for replying.

- I am filming figure skating which moves very quickly and I am using AV.



Hi Daniel. it sounds to me like the shutter speed is too low, probably because you are using Av mode and have no control over it.

I suggest you do not use Av mode. Try Tv instead, and set the shutter to 1/60s. Use 60i mode or possibly 30p since it is for action shots (this is my opinion - others might suggest 24p but I recommend you only try that after fixing this problem).

Turn on the zebra stripes (set to 100% or slightly less) and adjust the iris until only the lights themselves show the stripes. If the subject is too dark you might need to open the iris further at the expense of overexposing the lights. Not ideal, but not much choice when you have lights in the shot.

Try this, and compare the results with what you got in Av mode.

Richard

I believe you are missing the points guys. See below:

I was filming within an arena whre the light are, unfortunately, not all the same. It easy to see with our own eyes. When you look at the light you will see that they are either red or white. The heat generated by those lights are then different and are visible by the lens.

For exemple, in filming a subject without moving/panning the camera I will be able to see in wave a redish and a white color on the camera.

- The white balance was set to 2 (impossible to set a white balance as there is too much difference from one end to another).

He was not moving the camera, the lights changed, he was using custom preset #2 white balance, not set! The camera had no white balance.

At least that is the biggest problem I see.

M

Thank you very much for taking the time in trying to help me out.

I've tried all of the different white balancing combination (i.e A, 1,2,3...) and did not see a difference.

I'll try to explain it better. As an example, the skater is setting up at the beginning of his presentation and is not moving. I am then not moving/panning the camera. If the skater stays at the same place for a while there will be enough time for me to see the background color changing.

From white, to yellow, to red back to white, yellow and red.....

I record this event on a DVD recorder. When I get to fast forward the DVD you can see the background changing very fast, it's like waves. Starts from the top to the bottom, back to the top to the bottom.

What I could do over the week-end would be to put this on a tape. Is there a place where I could post these images for you to see.

Thanks again !

Daniel

Daniel,

Well, you have me confused! Have you down loaded the footage to your computer and looked at it, or have you just looked at the viewfinder while you are shooting?

Have you tried just putting the camera in full auto and see if it is still there?

Mike

Daniel,

Also, don't be afraid to use auto mode until you learn more about the camera. I know a lot of people who light and setup shots the best they can and then just use auto. The footage will be better than what you will get if you know nothing about how to properly setup the camera. No offense, but it does not sound like you have had it long or know much about how to set it up.

The Canon XL2 is one of the most adjustable or programmable cameras made, it just take a while to figure it all out. Lots of information on this site to help you though.

Mike

P.S.: If it still does it on auto, you may have a bad camera that needs service.

M

F.A.Q. Some light sources change faster than the eye sees, but not faster than the camera. If you're lucky, 1/48 or 1/60 will be slow enough to combine enough of the changes so it will appear consistent.

I'll try to explain it better. As an example, the skater is setting up at the beginning of his presentation and is not moving. I am then not moving/panning the camera. If the skater stays at the same place for a while there will be enough time for me to see the background color changing.

From white, to yellow, to red back to white, yellow and red.....


Hi Daniel. My previous advice about smearing was obviously aimed at fixing the wrong problem, but actually I believe it will also be a solution for this one. Fast shutter speeds with certain indoor lighting will result in colour shifts and this might be what you are seeing. In order to control the shutter speed, use Tv mode rather than Av. There are several threads already on this subject, so you could also try a search for more advice.

Richard

Thanks again everybody !

I have been filming those events for many years using AV with a xL1 and a GL2 and had nor problems.

My setup is the following.

- The camera is connected to a DVD recorder (Pioneer DVR-633H) via the Firewire connection.
- I record directly onto the hard disk of the DVD recorder.
- I preview the information that have just been recorded onto a 13" TV monitor connected to the DVD recorder.
- I do not need to preview to see the background color changing, I see it right on the fly throught the monitor.

Mike, excuse me if I confused you with my last message. I have to say that you had it right in understanding what I am doing.

I am not sure if I should be using some kind of filter.

Daniel,

Best of luck on this. I would try what Richard and the other Daniel said, vary the shutter speed, hopefully it goes way. With that mixture of light it could affect it.

What settings did you use on your XL1 and were you recording it to the DVD recorder and monitoring it the same way?

Are you observing the same effect in the cameras viewfinder that you are on the monitor? Could there be some electrical interference between the camera and the monitor and the DVD recorder? How long are the cables?

Mike

I am using on the XL2 the same setting than the XL1s.

Yes I am recording it to the DVD recorder and monitoring it the same way.

I did not look at the viewfinder, I will do on the week-end.

There should not be any electrical interference between the camera, the monitor and the DVD recorder.

The DV cables are 10 feet long.

As suggested, I will be trying different setup on the week-end. I will let you know on next Monday.

Regards everybody !

Daniel

Hello Daniel,

The problem you are getting comes mainly from those damn sodium bulbs (or similar types of cheap lighting) used in most of our indoor arenas (I'm talking about the province of Quebec here, dunno how it is elsewhere, but photographs and videomakers like me gotta deal with that kind of crap all the time). :-)

If I say something wrong here please correct me, but I'm pretty sure these explanations can help you understand and correct your problem.

Sodium lighting is pretty darn hard to work with photo and video mostly because when a bulb's near dying, it doesn't emit the same lighting color, unlike professionnal lighting which gives a constant lighting color. At their life's beginning, they emit a bright yellowish tungsten-like light (about 3200-3500k), and the further they age, the nearer they get to the redish light (about 2000-2500k). That's why you see whites and yellows and reds all over the place through your cam : some bulbs are about to die while others are at half their lifespan or even new-ish. The flicker you're experiencing comes from the cam's color temperature trying to determine the right hue when you're in auto white balance.

Now, what can you do to correct this? Not much unfortunately, as the shooting environment doesn't give you much play in this situation. If you're a friend of the manager of the arena, try asking him to change all the dying bulbs for new ones, but good luck with that! :-)

Seriously though, the only way I found to correct this was to do it in post. Best way would be to shoot with a fixed white balance, and try to determine some kind of average WB in the arena you're shooting that would look ok. Most bulbs seem about to die? WB according to these bulbs. Most seem new? WB according to them instead. I did that a lot when I was shooting still photos with my Nikon D200, and had to correct all red hues in post before printing them. With video though, it might get harder, especially if you're recording directly on DVD, because then there's compression, and if you give the DVD straight away then there's no way for you to correct the colors in post.

So, my advice? Well, Richard's solution is the first step, but it won't correct entirely the problem. What you need to do is, since some indoor arenas have better and newer lighting types, so you could try to schedule your shoots in these rather than older ones where the lighting is crappy. You evidently gotta shoot some tests first, but hey, if your clients are satisfied after that, it might be worth your time investigating this! Then you can either correct the lighting in post-prod (with gradients and such), and start charging a bit more, or warn your clients that there's nothing you can do about the colors since it comes from the light sources up the roof (being honest often helps, especially if the problem's not your fault). :-)

Hope this helps!

--Gabe

WOW, it sure does help!

Excellent explanation, very detailed.

I’ve thought the lighting was different because they were using different type of bulbs. From your explanation it has nothing to do with being different type of bulbs but with the fact they the bulbs are aging i.e should be replaced.

You are right, I would be really lucky to get the arena manager to change their bulbs because of that. To them the bulb is still providing lighting, why changing it when your not in the dark.

It does make a lot of sense, last week-end I’ve filmed within another arena. I had no problems. Yes, there were lights which we old but not to the same extent than the previous week-end.

This is also true, being honest with clients is the best way to go. This is what I have been doing and the clients appreciate when you do not hide things.

Unfortunately, in my situation I cannot do post editing. It’s filmed, it’s put live on DVD, it’s finalised and the client leaves the arena with his souvenir in his hand.

Merci beaucoup Gabriel, c’est très apprécié !

Thanks everybody for your help.


Daniel

Hi everybody!

This is my first post - I've been reading this forum (which is always of great help) for a year now bo it wasn't until I got a problem with my camera that I decided to register and write my first post.

I believe I've read every single topic about it and still don't know if I my camera suffers from it or not. What's more my problems seems a little bit different. So here it goes (it's gonna be long):

Few months ago I bought a new XL2 in the UK from a reputable seller on Ebay. The camera was brand new, everthing (box etc) packed as it should be. So many times have I read about the dreaded backfocus issue with XL2 so it was the first thing I checked when I opened the box. The camera seemed to be fine.

Few days I ago when I was playing with Adobe OnLocation I discovered that although I got crtical focus (zoom in, focus, zoom out) my screen seemed a little bit soft when full wide. I spent many hours staring at the monitor and it appears I've got a backfocus problem, however, it is not like for many other guys here - after I zoom out, everything does not get horribly blurred but is somewhat softer not much but can be easily noticed (not in the viewfinder though).

Yeah, I know when fully wide XL2 (SD) is not a Panavision Genesis and loose some detail but actually I am able to correct (!) the focus bu turning the lens ring about 1 cm left, then the shot gets sharper. I noticed that the biggest difference is when I open iris all the way up to f 1.6. When the iris is at 5.6 or 4 I'm having a hard time looking for out of focus shot but I think it's still there (just smaller) and once again I can correct it by turning the focus ring left.

I thought I'm focusing incorectly, but I tried every option: zoom in, autofocus on, get the focus, then off, zoom out. It's all the same in the end - When fully wide I can correct the focus either manually or by aplying autofocus once again.


What's intersting, especially at f 1.6 when I zoom in, focus, zoom out, what's really in focus is not the subject but the plane that is about two ft. from the camera (providing my subject is about 2 meters away). When I correct the focus and my subject is really focused then this plane is softer.
I read somewhere that when adjusting backfocus on manual lens one should open the iris as much as possible so it may some clue why I see this at f 1.6 better.


My question is: Does this count as a backfocus issue? I will repeat this once again: when I get the critical focus the difference in sharpness is very small.
On the other hand, when I see a shot that i properly focused ( not very often happens due to a viewfinder anyway) I am blown away by the quality of picture my XL2 produces. What's more, even if less sharpness is more "filmlike" and more is 'videoish' I would prefer to destroy my picture in post and not by shooting it out of focus.

Normally, I live in Poland so I guess if I take my camera to Canon I will have to pay for the adjustment but Im'willing to do it since it wil take few month when I will be in the UK once again. BTW. Is backfocus adjustment on the stock lens done by any authorized Canon service center or it has to go to the factory or what?

Please guys, share your knowledge and experience. Thanks for reading and sorry for such long and boring post...

Piotr

Hi Piotr,

I think the reason that you are not getting any response on this is due to the fact that this issue has been covered extensively in the past. If you do a search for XL2 backfocus, you should be able to find plenty of information on your topic.

I will tell you this though, the stock 20x XL2 lens has been known to be shipped with backfocus issues. Judging by your description, you have a backfocus issue that needs to be resolved through Canon.

Good Luck!
Ryan

Thank you Ryan for your reply!
These are not good news for my XL2 but I'm glad I know what the problem may be.

BTW. Yeah, I know it's been covered many times before, but as I wrote my problem is a little bit different (very small difference, seen mostly at f 1.6) and I did not find the definite answer in other topics as everybody had huge backfocus issue, everything blurred, only one guy mentioned about f stops,which still only similar to my problem.... Sorry for bringing out this already discussed topic.

Anyway, as you said, I think I will have to take my camera to Canon...

Thanks once again for your help.

What you are experiencing with the f-stop difference is typical of all lenses, the higher the f-stop; the more that will be in focus. The lower the f-stop; less will be in focus therefore giving you a very shallow depth of field. For instance: you are shooting an interview with a person 6 feet away from the background, at an f-stop of 1.6 the subject will be in focus and the background will be slightly out of focus while at an f-stop of 5.6 the subject will be in focus while the background is more likely to be in focus as well.

The bottom line is: if you zoom in and get critical focus then zoom back out and the focal point changes, you have a backfocus issue. This is true for any f-stop (especially a lower f-stop).

Hope this helps,
Ryan

Thank you Ryan for a detailed response. I know what DOF is and how to achieve it via iris adjustment, but frankly speaking I didn't know how it is related to backfocus issue at full wide shot.

"The bottom line is: if you zoom in and get critical focus then zoom back out and the focal point changes, you have a backfocus issue. This is true for any f-stop (especially a lower f-stop)." This is 100% what I needed to know!

Thanks,
Piotr

Piotr,

Also be advised that the stock 20x lens will close the iris down a couple stops as yo go full telephoto. The 16x manual lens is nice in this regard since it has manual back focus adjustment and will hold iris full open at the telephoto end. If you plan to keep the XL2 for awhile, the manual lens is a great investment IMHO.

Enjoy your new camera!

-gb-

UPDATE: I have just called my closest authorized service center. The lady on the phone gave me the price for backfocus adjustment (quite high) and told me that THE TECHNICIAN SAID THAT SOME XL2s CAN'T HAVE BACKFOCUS ADJUSTED PROPERLY DUE TO A "BUG" IN THIS MODEL.

Have you ever heard of such thing? Can I get stuck with the lens that can't be fixed and the only solution to get rid of this tiny backfocus issue would be purchasing new stock 20x? The more i'm into this the more I'm considering Greg's advice on buying canon 16x full manual lens (still beyond my financial capabilities)

Pioter,

Did the person you talk to say how to find out if you have the model with the 'bug' in it? I'd like to know if mine is one of those models. I'm thinking my backfocus issus is...back.

Jonathan

Jonathan,

I didn't spoke directly to the technician, only the receptionist who asked somebody in the background so she might have simplfied some stuff. However, when I emailed another canon service center they didn't tell me there's a bug or whatever, they just said that the price will depend on if it is only lens that need adjusting or lens and the camera body. Coud this mean the guys at previous center were wrong or just couldn't fix some XL2 backfouses int the past so they made up some BUG excuse? (that center though being authorized by Canon, are repairing several brands as well so maybe that's the reason)

In two or three weeks I will be taking my XL2 to the second service center to solve backfocus AND some excessive noise (not dependent on gain custom settings) which I think I'm getting in light and dark places almost equally. It is not far away so I hope I will have the chance to speak to someone about this BUG and other issues.

I must admit that after initial 'love' with the XL2 (when everything seemed extremely perfect because I did not have the chance to inspect everything properly) I'm somewhat depressed - first backfocus, then this alleged noise that I noticed and THEN you are saying that your backfous problem is BACK meaning that once repaired it may need to be done again. This is really bad providing backfous is quite pricey to fix :(

Anyway, I will keep you informed.

Piotr