http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050613_152813.html

Also talks about getting hard drive working through USB slave.

Chris is the guy from the development community, I think the one that did the PC development system for PS2.


Ronald:

PS3, I don't know about Firewire, there is 6 USB2.0 ports, and being a non PC this may work better. There is Gigbit Ethernet. So Sumix is credible if you want to pay for really good camera. I don't want to carry around PS3 for capture from low priced sensor. But eventually there maybe a small PSTwo like PS3.

--
Debian Linux told me there is only 2x a raw drive technical possibles but no good at all.
--

Can you clarify?

dasychaining frewire drives is technically possible but in real life a problem. Sometimes in Linux and Windows world they are shown as raw drives with no data found..
please have a look at this has global shutter and is from Germany
http://www.mikrotron.de/content/pdf/mc1302_03_dsh_05_02_01.pdf

1920x1080 12 bit data 33fps imag processing with FGPA and 32 Risc
it's Impex IPX /2M30 HC LC
http://www.turnkey-solutions.com.au/cam_imperx_ipx2M30_series.htm

Cameralink base to GIGE
http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1772.php

2352 x 1726 Cameralink base works with GIGE adapter at 24 fps
http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1760.php

an old classic
http://www.turnkey-solutions.com.au/im_video_streaming_software_index.htm

Looks nice. Do you have prices?

This StreamPix, is that a new version from the previous one tried here? Is Silicon Imaging using this for there solution? You don't have to develop your own software, just lobby existing manufacturer to do a version for Pro video production. open source if you want something cheap.


I would be interested if that Cameralink to Gige is cheaper?

I think the PS3 might not have Firewire, there was talk it might have optical Firewire last year, but the released specs don't have it listed (yet). Don't like this push away from Firewire. USB is doing good, but they aren't including the hi-speed version. If the PS3 is designed properly the processing load from it should be minimal, otherwise, as long as it is handled by one of the processing units we should be fine.

But looking at the Specs it says:

"Communication
Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g"

Does that mean there are three Ethernet, and how would you have input and output Ethernet?

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8720

Re-Edit:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/17/sony_unveils_ps3/

(see picture) Yes, it appears to have more than one Ethernet port, but what speeds, what is in/out mean? If this is some typo and they are all Gige Ethernet that gives us access to GigE Raid, and dual GigE Ethernet camera head ability (200MB/s packed, compress and 100MB/s save. Am I silly now.
---------

It appears that Revolution is trying to stick away from HD and might be twin 1.8Ghz Power PC. Small and capable, but I don't even know if it will have HD capable monitor port. They might as well have release a big version mid year, and a small version 2007.


Thanks

Wayne.

Better pictures:

http://news.spong.com/detail/assetView.asp?mode=console&viewid=164106&type=11&prid=8719

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8719

Yep, this makes me excited about PS3 as future PC, won't have to go to buy Apple from the cute girl down at the Apple shop :(

Pity they did not release OSX for the PS3 instead of Linux :( Steve could had charged $100 for each copy, I don't care about Linux, too many head aces.

Must point out again to readers, that the PS3 does about 218 GFLOPS floating point, but with Graphic Chip etc 1.8 TFLOPS. I think that 3.2Ghz Pent 4 is around 20-30 Gflop I think. So you should be able to use this for compression no problems, and higher speed cameras.

Dear Wayne would buy in an Apple store if there were Girlz telling me why to by the dammed Apple for such an asking price as Apple hardware is alredy dead but prices as usual.

Tell you what...Linux is no problem id it is proper made. I have one PC wich an Nvidia Quadro, no Linux will have propper resolution, most even don't start only this dammed Dynebolic I found by acciden, getting the CD from a shop for 1.9 Euro !! it starts is fast dont crash you are allways root can do what you want and with dammed old X86 no mouse only TAB the cofiguration of my Opengl Nvidia beast is a snap !! all on an 26"" SGI/SONY screen, Redhat took me heurs to recompile...I can tell you LINUX is not for VIDEO/MUSIK freak, it is for servers and hackers, and stupid guys hating Windows...

Dynebolic can't to email but anyway in an Soho network an old PII will do the job

now to read and so long >
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Shooting with Dad's swappable HD mag
By Sheigh Crabtree
Legendary British camera wizard Joe Dunton arranged for his daughter Erica Dunton to be a guinea pig on his first foray into digital cinematography gear.

Two years ago at IBC in Amsterdam, the production equipment guru introduced -- through his U.K. rental house, Joe Denton Cameras -- a prototype high-definition digital magazine for traditional motion picture cameras (HR 9/27/02).

The most noteworthy thing about the rig was that instead of starting with an electronic newsgathering camera and attaching film-style lenses, he began with a native film camera and lenses and engineered an attachable high-def digital magazine.

"It's exciting because it is the film technician's chance to design a camera for electronic imaging," Joe Dunton said at the time.

Curious anticipation has since followed the invention, primarily because the removable digital magazine uniquely allows filmmakers to bring a single-camera package on set that shoots either film or HD.

This year, Erica Dunton brought her father's HD mag with her on location to Wilmington, N.C., for her first feature film, "RedMeansGo," a visually ambitious indie she wrote, produced and directed.

"It's set in a world that only sees red, green and yellow," Erica Dunton said. "It is a very stylistic and graphically orientated film that presents an unconventional look at love."

The young director worked with Argentinean cinematographer Natasha Braier ("One Minute Past Midnight"), whom she met at the National Film and Television School outside London and with whom she has worked on spots and short films.

For "RedMeansGo," Braier shot HD, Super 16mm and 35mm and used both Kodak and Fuji film stock. Her main camera was an Arri SRIII, on which she mounted Cooke lenses and swapped Super 16mm film and HD mags.

"By using the same lenses on each format, (you have) a unique continuity of image and pronounced depth of field," said Erica Dunton, adding that it took moments to swap from mag to mag in the midst of production.

Her HD magazine consists of a three-chip Ikegami block that reproduces imagery sized at 1028 x 1918. The HD footage is then recorded onto D5 tapes and converted to Mini-DV. "RedMeansGo's" final online edit is being finished on Final Cut Pro HD by editor Sigvaldi Karason ("101 Reykjavik"). Ikegami is finalizing the production version of the Dunton HD magazines, which will allow 24p, 720 and 1080i frame rates.

"RedMeansGo" will receive theatrical distribution in early 2005 through Simon Gosling and Simon Ewin's new Enjoy Films' distribution arm. Gosling oversaw sales and distribution of "Rabbit-Proof Fence," "Sexy Beast" and "Brother." "RedMeansGo" is the first production through Enjoy Films.
Published Sep. 07, 2004

Dear Wayne
as I told you the Nucleus is FREE it is even GNU only the GUI is Apple
it is Mach Unix....what Sony will have on the disk is a good question ....will it be a special version taking in account all the PS# goodies ?? would be FANTASTIC

hm tht's for the old one
but a full blown OS
have a look
http://gentoox.shallax.com/
and free bien sure

@Ronald : if you want to test x264, everything is here : http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=89979


For the lossless mode of Ateme new encoder, it's not that good... Seems to do 2:1 but times slower than for exemple FFV1 which is one of the best lossless codec around. Well H264 wasn't designed to be a lossless encoder ;)

that's fine merci will do

something to read
the IBM article is great

I do guess that the cell is a kind of very special micricontroller
but there is somethin gstange happening. To my opinion
Steve Job was allways late and did a step in the wrong direction.
He finally left Apple, wrong direction, he came up with NEXT, wrong direction,
he came back to Apple wrong direction, he switched from Motorola to IBM CPU strange... now he is going to use Intel CPU rather strange.
An Bi Pro Apple is a fine machine, stable and runs FCP Shake Xpress etc round the world same as SGI's, SUN all wonderfull. WHY ? They are closed boxes and people use them to work with and not switch hardware like mad.

Like to have hand on the Linux disk for PS3
http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=47986
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050525/105050/
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050425/104149/?ST=english

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20050407/103542/

@Ronald : For the lossless mode of Ateme new encoder, it's not that good... Seems to do 2:1 but times slower than for exemple FFV1 which is one of the best lossless codec around. Well H264 wasn't designed to be a lossless encoder ;)

Steve:
Thanks for that. It is confusing with all the new lossless compressors coming out. Of the lossless compressors which do you you think are best on compression ration, speed, and price?

Ronald:
Thanks. I will have to get back to you latter, need rest.

Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne, none of these Lossless codecs are magic -- odds are most of them are standard RLE.

Ben, back from the dead, how have you been?

I haven't heard anything from Sumix for a month or two, have you?

Yes, Codecs, many are similar, but there is a difference between them in performances, with many new ones. One, we saw last year, don't remember the name etc (but has space theme pictures on site) claimed something like 4:1 or 6:1, so waiting to see if this is true. Thought Steve might know what was up.

Radek Mate, here is some links to VIA stuff with Video Input port , I was told was something like component. there is a 12cm board with this connector on it, chipset supports two, but as I said somewhere don't have info yet, waiting before I go and do emails to VIA (original contact gone). I suggest next 2Ghz generation is more suitable.

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/c-series/cn400

http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_N_spec.jsp?motherboardId=221#

Dual processor (only example next version might be preferred, hopefully dual C7's (upto 2Ghz each)):

http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_dp_spec.jsp?motherboardId=321#.

I did got nothing relly nothing
and the old page seems to be gone and the new one
is rather strange by the was do you have their webpage or even email ??

will contact basler but they are rather expensive I do guess.
A shame that the Foveon is so dead slow.

some strange crazy idea...there are a lot of surplus highspeed cams out, working with prisms. taking some foveon and ....tiff to avi sounds strange
Hanvision is selling the Foveon chip

please have a look to the P# links

below Apple 10.4 their is Darwin it is free only the gui no way...
but they are porting to X86 they have allready signed with Intel

take rest.
I dont like to turn this thread to a PS3 one
but this is better as having sex LOL

PSP gets web browser... in Korea
Category: Updates ..... Posted on: 13/06/2005

Eurogamer is reporting that the PSP will have a UMD-based web browser when it debuts in South Korea this May. There will also be support for video on demand and music on demand from Korea Telecommunications. No word yet on plans to offer this software outside of Korea, but we know that there are 3rd-party keyboards on the way. We’ll keep you posted. [Thanks, Andrew] Ads by Google

what the hell does it mean ????????

rather new
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/fastforward/0,15704,1072719,00.html
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16/news_6124681.html?q=1

the official press release from Sony as pdf
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/050517e.pdf

and the Sony sponsored page with the latest news a bit crazy with the layout
http://e3.playstation.com/index.aspx
http://e3.playstation.com/news/releases/nws_000.aspx


I do guess it comes out first in Japan
do you have friends there to order one, would like to get one.......


Linux is legacy, but it will be a start. In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications. The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications. Of course, the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows. Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so. Maybe a new OS might come out.
sic

Steve:
Thanks for that. It is confusing with all the new lossless compressors coming out. Of the lossless compressors which do you you think are best on compression ration, speed, and price?


Well, the best ones are free :)
currently it should be FFV1 and snow in lossless mode, the first use a range coder and some adaptive model (afaik) the second is a wavelet codec (and should rather be slow) using range coding for the entropic conding too. Both are opensource, in early stage developpement, without any support and backward compatibility.
FFV1 do at least 3:1 lossless iirc. You should browse the archive of Doom9 Forum for more detailed information about those, there is lot of post and comparaison between the lossless codecs out there.

That's for the lossless one, the "almost" lossless like CineformHD (or AspectHD ?) well that sort of stuff is another world/story, there isn't much work in the opensource community (well, i had a try, but it's stalled somehow for various reasons)

please can you send me a private email
best at regine.biese@wanadoo

as my network is ever changing all old mails
are on a dvd but explorer can not read Kmail, Mozilla fierfox or so
and I find it so boring to fight Windows ...

Xbox vs. Playstation war. Sony is winning and is making good profit on their product. M$ losing money. M$ can't turn their toy into computer or they anger all their customers. Sony can. Billy G used to say how he'll outsell Sony with Xbox, now saying again how his Xbox360 outsell PS3. Good luck Billy! Did you do your homework on how much money you make, or rather lose?

Sony seems have lot bigger plans for PSP and P3. Can't wait to edit HD on PS3.

If Sony can add to PSP web browser, PIM, some basic office applications, etc., and I'm sure they will, most kids who will be brought on PSP will never even want to get PC, especially when PSP2 will have power of PS3.

I think Intel's aliance with Apple and Sony's aliance with IBM finally may bring some quality to market place that put lot pressure on M$. I think both Sony and Apple may have plan and may working on it together and will put squeeze on Billy. The sooner the better.

Radek

Looks like I've got around 60 web pages open to read through and other stuff to do first, so you will have to be patient with me.

Ronald:

PS3:
I opened the thread for discussion on the technical aspects of the camera projects, to take the pressure off the meeting place in the other thread, but now that's gone, we still have future project here. So discussion on using PS3 for camera is right on topic. I mention HC1 uncompressed component, PS3, PSP, and cheap Foveon X3 as suggestions. I am pleased that everybody is discussing, except I make decision a few months ago, to spend my time on other things, like my own projects. But for now, I will do some discussing, but feel free to discuss different ideas. Better than Sex, that's a good one!

Here: is a reply to your earlier posts:

Ronald:
Lots of reading. I think I read about that film camera video mag before, but forgotten about it. I know there is probably at least one similar product claiming to come out.

I am yet to read most the links.

I have finally read that gamespot interview and it's great. They are opening up the machine for different OS's (to program different things). They want to present themselves as a credible computer, with the Cell super computer design to get away from the Nintendo toy image. They should market it as the "Super computer that plays games" (illustrating the super computer like design features and that it also just happens to play games as well). They will also have to engage third party application developers to get them interested in porting word processors., editing systems etc so the other commercial developers feel secure to develop for it. See, MS won't be too scared, as long as Sony stick with Linux/Open Source and the commercial guys don't want to go first. They would know that there will be a perception that commercial software is more desirable, but that should only work for so long ;)

I should put my OS design on the PS3 (big undertaking). Need to design it a bit more for parallel computing though, but virtually, nearly, everything else, except for AI, is fine. I have known people that work with advanced concepts and parallel in other groups. Sort of 3000 2.4Ghz CPU's on a 30cm board sort of thing. I know two guys that have access to a group working on something far more powerful than that, another guy with access to people who worked on true 3D, float in the room, image technology (very close to commercial market now, but this was several years ago). I lack money (and the rest) so I work on very advanced concepts in OS theory and computer user interface. When I get better I can start work again, needs good mind to balance designs. Capture software nothing compared to designing OS (capture, biggest problem in the main part, is learning to deal with Windows/PC design) . Needs lots of time and clear head.

At the moment I am considering a handheld computer project to have a parallel FPGA network back-end. Not too difficult, as you are designing a small array, and some OS software to control loading in new designs, not actually making FPGA designs. I hear of good Raytracing 3D FPGA design (Open RT) that maybe close to my 3D design for the OS, if so it would be good to include the ability to use it (among other things). Possible to tackle PSP. But still talking with few engineers about it, what to use for front end that I want to be ultra low powered (much easier and cheaper to work with people on this than to complete the OS and take out many patents).

On Cell:

The Cell is a multi processor with additional processing units, bigger than microcontroller, partly new breed hybrid between CPU, Parallel DSP/Embedded etc. If it works, great, I think that it probably does work as a credible alternative.

Thanks

Wayne.

Radek:
Microsoft are planning Xbox branded computers according to reports, I posted some stuff here a while ago. Your right this must be worrying to the manufacturers.

I think Intel's aliance with Apple and Sony's aliance with IBM finally may bring some quality to market place that put lot pressure on M$. I think both Sony and Apple may have plan and may working on it together and will put squeeze on Billy. The sooner the better.
I agree with you. The thing is Intel is, potentially, a dead duck because of no credible answer to Cell, it is like pitting Workstation against Super computer. So what was Apple thinking. So Intel must have something up their sleeve. I know a few projects that can potentially blow CELL out of the water.

Steve:

Thanks for the info. Good to here FFV1 will do at least 3:1. Interesting that none of the commercial ones can cut it. I still wonder, do any of them eliminate sensor noise to increase compression? What is range compression, sounds similar to an idea I was thinking about years ago?

Ronald:
"what..does it mean ??.."

Well there has been talk of applications including word-processor and Internet, and Keyboards, for a while, but I have not heard of Linux (want OS). Will be camera for it.

Sumix:

http://www.sumix.com/optic/index.html
They have many web sites around the world apparently. I think they are in eastern Europe.

I think info@Sumix.com is their front end, but looks like system crash has caused emails to that address to be lost.

Foveon, good for SD like raw images, but cinema version is coming apparently (read other new threads in forum, do search on my posts).

P# links ?? do you mean PS3, I just read them, interesting.

This post from the link, is most interesting:
http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=48156

About Sony's/Toshiba/IBM's plans to open up full specs to encourage Open Source development to get the Cell supported and used for new products.

I do guess it comes out first in Japan
do you have friends there to order one, would like to get one.......
..
Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so. Maybe a new OS might come out.
sic
They do want to release things worldwide but often manufacturing volume conspires against them. Grey importers are the best bet, but, from memory, Sony is trying to close that down too.

Yes, I was hoping for an emulator to run OSX on Xbox360 or PS3.


Thanks

Wayne.

Thanks to Mike from hdforindies for posting this on his site:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail.asp?techID=102

Sony has released a laptop with 1920*1080 capable screen, processor speed not the fastest though.

Wayne.

Sony HC1 has uncompressed HD output.

Radek

Steve:

Thanks for the info. Good to here FFV1 will do at least 3:1. Interesting that none of the commercial ones can cut it. I still wonder, do any of them eliminate sensor noise to increase compression? What is range compression, sounds similar to an idea I was thinking about years ago?


It does 2.7:1 on a very hard 1080p video sample here, at 4fps (crappy celeron 2ghz). Should be twice slower than HuffYUV. Range coding is a sort of Arithmetic Coding, but twice faster, for a 0.01% loss in compression, more info :
http://www.arturocampos.com/ac_range.html
and http://www.data-compression.info/Algorithms/RC/
It's believed to be patent free, too.

Thanks for the compression site link, that should be interesting. I am surprised it is so slow (but for those sorts of compression ratio it should not surprise me). Not feeling well enough for reading at the moment, but from the first paragraph, on range compression, it doesn't seem, related to my scheme. I was thinking where you get a stream, or area and work out it's max and min value, and the max and min value that would give the max compression on the following: A new pixel value (or sub stream or sub area) is expressed as a value from a range of values (offset to start from zero) any exception to this value then goes through an exception handling procedure to give the alternative value or string/area of values, or the sub streams/areas are broken up to contain the value in that range. The whole idea is that if the consecutive value (pixel, stream or area) has a 4 bit change in value, just record 4 bits instead of 8 bits. This can be from an absolute starting value or a changing value dependent on the last value, or predetermined position etc). For a face, or a green leaf, much of the detail (except shard, marks or highlights) then could be encoded in this way producing maybe nearly 2.1 compression before any other compression method is applied. It is only a part solution.

A lot of my stuff depends on integer for speed (except for transformations, irregular area definition, ramping, and the more advanced features that maybe touched upon by the subsequent Intel 3D from 2D photo stuff). I know many of these things might already touched upon in the compression field, but nice to think. Sorry if this explanation is a bit clumsy, off color today.

Have your heard of a compression platform called Adams Platform (probably from 1995) it was written very quickly by a video person in Australia to feed a video wall? It was producing around 1000:1 compression ratio. I never heard about how it worked?

Radek:
Have you found out it is uncompressed from an review article?


Thanks

Wayne.

It's right on Sony U.S. site, in camera pages; they even sell fancier cable for that port in accessory pages.

I looked before, it mentioned component but not about compression. We wait and see. No manual iris or shutter, bummer! I can get the auto version on $100 toy camera, hardly a feature, pretty cheap of them!

Have your heard of a compression platform called Adams Platform (probably from 1995) it was written very quickly by a video person in Australia to feed a video wall? It was producing around 1000:1 compression ratio. I never heard about how it worked?

With i little googling i found this : http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/14/1094927581872.html?feed=rss&oneclick=true

looks like your Adams Platform was just way to gain $$ during those crazy days... Sound like a french company, I2BP, who claimed HD quality at 2Kb/s ... and didn't even have the quality of mpeg2 when broadcasting on a 10Mbits LAN...
nice link : http://datacompression.info/IncredibleClaims.shtml


Btw, your compression scheme sound like differential coding, and a bit too arithmetic coding, but i'm a little lost in your explaination ;)

And for your comment about speed, don't forget i'm encoding a 1080p @ 25fps video with a first generation celeron at 2ghz, FSB 100Mhz and i'm pretty sure with SD-RAM ! you can't make things worse than that to have the "advantages" of netburst micro-architecture of P4 completly nullified. Celeron should never have see the light, Intel must burn in hell for that.

Thanks Steven


looks like your Adams Platform was just way to gain $$ during those crazy days...

The Israeli Intelliegence have, apperently, had 600:1 video imaging in their intelliegence section since the mid 80's. The claim came out within months of the Adams plaform, so I took the possibility a bit more seriously.

"Sound like a french company, I2BP, who claimed HD quality at 2Kb/s ... and didn't even have the quality of mpeg2 when broadcasting on a 10Mbits LAN.."

That's 600 thousand to one, isn't it ;) LIke the one that claimed they could keep compressing the same file repeatedly down to nearly nothing.

"Btw, your compression scheme sound like differential coding, and a bit too arithmetic coding, but i'm a little lost in your explaination ;)"

That OK, my head not that clear today. It is too be expected, that many things I can come up with independently are already in this mature field.

"And for your comment about speed, don't forget i'm encoding a 1080p @ 25fps video with a first generation celeron at 2ghz, FSB 100Mhz and i'm pretty sure with SD-RAM !"

Yes that would slow things quiet a bit. It was more a comment about codec speed though, as quiet often speed critical applications get written in slow C that should have been machine coded.

I looked at:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/13/1094927495966.html?oneclick=true

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/14/1094927581872.html?feed=rss&oneclick=true

Interesting, not much information on the dis-proof. After thinking about it, I thought that I heard it before 1997, and only the decoder performance was mentioned. At the time I read it the best machines were 386's, I think. I thought it was something like a 320@240 video, as he was comparing it to the VHS images he was replacing. But compression is a lot slower than compression. It is one thing to compress a file of a long video sequence and send it without error correction over a phone line (like he was demonstrating) but compression is much lower to compress live images over the Internet with error correction overhead.

I noted, at the time, that the (newspaper image) seemed to lack detail on the image (I think it might have been a dancer) on a large plain background was plain, which is another way to drive down compression requirements. You can supplement definition by defining the shape (as they do with facial recognition 6000:1+ instead) and transmitting that and filling it in. Even a beach ball on a blue background will increase compression. We can forget the 2KB/s HD codec, I can do it at 30-bit/s, at virtually any resolution, just film a perfect circle and send a draw command to draw it ;)

I think, if you also just restricted the range of values on any details, that maybe transmitted, say to 2-4 bits you also compress further and give a hint at the detail.

So it could be achieved by reducing detail, plane background, outlined shape/edge enhancement/upscaling with no error compression over a phone wire. But on real world images over the Internet, you would fail desperately to get any where near the compression rate. I think that DIVX (I think) had 1000-1500 to one in the early 90's for DVD resolution images over the network, so it is possible, but a quality compromise.

On the Age article, to be fair, you don't need to be a good mathematician to come up with a good new system, it is just that mathematicians have been doing this and can't see how to do it without that sort of complexity. It is credible not to run something on others machines also, too easy to steal, erased disk images can still be read after many overwrites. If it was me, I would probably had provided the money, get them to pick a store out of a phone book by random, drive over there with them and buy a machine, install and demonstrate, and keep the machine.

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8840

Even though the NVIDIA/Sony Hybrid chip might be ahead of schedule, how often have I heard of delays of European release due to complexity of manufacture, and this is the most complex personal computer yet.


Interesting to note ATI is claiming the, approx half the power, Xbox360 is the most advance thing you'll see in the next few years and double what's out there. Are they in self denial, you may ask. Well the interesting thing is that the xbox360 has unified shader structure (where shader and vertex units are combined in one processing model) something I have been waiting for a number of years. If it is what I suspect, it is the long horn combined architecture, that acts a bit more like a general purpose processor. This would be a extremely good thing as far as image processing and compression goes, as these functions could be programmed on graphic chip with minimal processor involvement. This is unlike the present day where the CPU has to keep feeding the shader pipelines to get some benefit out of it, that also may produce some timign problems. ATI claims 100% performance compared to I think it was 50-70% for the old model. This might actually draw real life performance (for us) closer to the Playstation 3. But there is more than enough power many times over as it is, but for programming it might be a bit easier (and closer to future PC/MAC graphic chip models.

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8829

It is interesting that NVIDIA would not have access to this for the PS3 (but it is a MS technology) so we will wait to see.

We will see. Nice thing Sony will ship a disk with a Linux on it. For Linux there is NLE Software, Compositing software, all is there sometime not so blown up as Maya or Shake or FCP but Shrek was made with, Nadagaskar is made with and so on we have to see.

..........

maybe vented a zillion time
there are CMOS out doing 12.5 fps with a lot af resolution.
There are still cams out using them.
Why not using 2 of such Cmos.
One takes all pair one all impair images.
using35 mm optics.
Fullframe format
or two Foveons
The Steve Nordhauser package is 10K$ and Bayer
and not portable
so crazy but

Hello Ronald

Sounds good. I'm more interested in tweaking a 12.5 fps camera to do 24/25 fps.

I've finally got around to starting research on the foveon based Polaroid and it doesn't have a raw VGA video mode, just Mpeg, so I gave up. I was thinking of researching to see if you could program the Sensor to offset the read out of each of the binned/unbinned colour planes from each other, to produce 1/3 rd pixel shift. If it was possible, and I could get a dev kit, I could very cheaply make a 1080p+ RAW camera. 640*480 becomes 1920*1440. Lossless/visually lossless compressibility would then become higher over Bayer. So 3:1 or 6:1 should be possible. The data rate would be much lower than 720p Bayer camera for 1080p. With compression it becomes closer to 5 MB/s. This is the future I think instead of Bayer for single chip. I don't know the exact problems of 1/3 rd pixel shift compared to native 3 chip, but I imagine it is much better than Bayer in many situations. Unfortunately due to all that is happening here I haven't got around to researching it. You can understand why I was so quiet about this.

I am currently thinking about (though haven't got time to do it) about a new lossless compression scheme that would get the pixel shifted 1080p down inside a HDTV channel at a fraction of the processing cost (certainly with cineform you can already get visually lossless just about in a channel, which compared to the quality of the HDTV transmission stuff I already see, would be a "cinematic" improvement).

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Any Patent and intellectual property rights in this I reserve for myself, so now others can't patent it.

Wayne, not to offer you legal advice, but once you publicly discuss an idea, it's no longer eligible for a patent in most countries (it's considered to be part of the "state of the art" once it's disclosed). In the US you have one year to patent your idea, but its value is questionable if you can't protect the idea in most other markets.

FYI, the cost of hiring a firm to patent an idea in an array of countries can range from about USD$100,000 to $500,000. I was told to figure around $10,000 - $15,000 per country.

I am aware of most of that. What's known as a "boiler plate" clause.

But the reason I mention it is because I am not totally clear on the law with it's special provision to industry/technical publications (which this forum could be regarded as) that changes things a bit from a public declaration. In this regard it is not the same a s a public statement. I can't remember which way it cuts on this (too long ago) but just in case it still allowed somebody else to patent and tie up the ideas from others using it, I am trying to prevent that. If I am not going to use it I don't want somebody else tying it up.

The US has 50% of the world economy and with this industry you might be able to get 50% of your profits in that one market. If you patented in US, Europe, Australia and Japan you may probably have 95%+ (figuratively speaking not based on hard statistics) of the world HDTV market money potential. This is a little trick used to save heaps of money and hassle while get maximum returns. Depending on your local patent law (check first) it maybe used to exercise monopoly control on goods entering a country which then theoretically mean that it canbe used to control the market. But I am not trying to offer anybody legal advise here either. Under law it is something for them and a patent attorney to sort out, we are only theorising. I don't feel like forking out for an Patent attorney yet to fill me in on the details. Time enough for that latter. In this forum I am careful what I say, and generally only say those things I can afford to loose. Doing a pixel shifted VGA HD camera based on a multi thousand dollar camera is not the most marketable idea compared to the original $399 dollar camera.

I think you can find much cheaper firms than that, and doing it yourself maybe cheaper but may also be less effective.

There are no special provisions for industry publications -- in fact, that's the worst place to make your "secret" ideas public, because they instantly become part of the state of the art. This forum certain counts as being "public."

Patenting in "Europe" is a little more complicated than it sounds -- you need a patent for each country. And the US is the only country I'm aware of that gives you time to patent your idea after it has been made public. Everywhere else, you're out of luck.

Honestly, patents are not worth it unless you anticipate making at least a million dollars from your idea. Otherwise, it's a massive and expensive waste of everyone's time. Believe me -- I've been down that road before.

Patenting an idea yourself is simply not feasible if you want to cover more than one country. Patent claims need to be worded extremely carefully -- are you willing to spend a few months learning the ins and outs of each country's system? Patent attorneys know what will fly, what will hold up, and what aspects of the idea to patent. I don't recommend "going it alone."

Ben, I'll speak in a basic manner that is less confusing to other people who lurk around here, as there is a public perception that patenting in an easy, affordable panacea, for inventors woes, rather than like a highly expensively piece of paper to people without money, that much less than 1% of poor inventors make money off of. I am wondering how a few people with projects here (a number hidden in the background) are going to go with patent issues. Practically it is one thing to do Open Source, another to have a commercial target for legal action."There are no special provisions for industry publications -- ..."Thanks for that Ben, but I remember something, maybe it was research publications then. Something I was aiming to look up and research in the future in any case, as the secrecy provisions in Patenting are draconian and burdensome, and definitely favour richer businesses (or small efforts) that are able to internalise their efforts. It would have been good if the laws had been written to allow for more open collaborative efforts, like the way they work in open-source, it would definitely benefit the public interest and we here could be more open.

"Patenting in "Europe" is a little more complicated than it sounds -- you need a patent for each country."
I am aware of that, but it is streamed lined (that's if they have sorted out all the bugs yet and translation costs". You will find a few patent conventions around the world that many countries align their laws with, and systems of applications for small groups of countries. The important thing I am conveying for readers, is that not every patent needs to go through every country to get the most of the benefit.

"And the US is the only country I'm aware of that gives you time to patent your idea after it has been made public. Everywhere else, you're out of luck."
Are you sure that none of the conventions supports this feature? My rudimentary knowledge of the patent system is quiet old now and with recent convention, and memory, is probably out of date somewhat, but in past I thought I heard this feature mentioned elsewhere.

"Honestly, patents are not worth it unless you anticipate making at least a million dollars from your idea. Otherwise, it's a massive and expensive waste of everyone's time. Believe me -- I've been down that road before."
Yes, I know. For the benefit of readers again. There are cheaper ways to avoid patenting until you have a company that can afford them (and finale manufacturing development, manufacture and marketing) in the form of Confidential Disclosure Deeds and Agreements (I have a few old blanks sitting here). People really need to get professional advise on their use.

"Patent claims need to be worded extremely carefully -- are you willing to...I don't recommend "going it alone.""
Yes I know that is why I said "doing it yourself maybe cheaper but may also be less effective." As their are probably still a few individuals that could maybe do it effectively themselves, but for most of the rest of us, Patent attorneys would be the way to go.

So if the US is the only country (and any other) let me continue to exercise my rights for the US, and simply let them mostly slip by in time (unless legal opportunity arises). There are companies out there that do slip State of the Art patents by the Patent office, and it has cost so much to overturn a illegal patent in times past that companies have been forced to pay them royalties. So the perpetrators have fair warning, I have provided explicit proof.

I'll have to put the research into special disclosure provisions onto my long list of things to do in the future.

Thanks Ben glad your here, not many people are so knowledgeable on this area.

Wayne.

Hi Wayne,

I'm just going by what my patent attorneys have told me, and what research I've done (which is US-centric). I do know that research publications are definitely still "public." And while the patent laws are similar in most countries (I think they're still working on standardizing throughout Europe), your attorney still needs to go through the motions, and file all the appropriate paperwork, which is why each country winds up costing around US$15k. I seem to remember there are a couple countries like the US where you have some time after making your idea public, but I don't think they're major markets. Basically, you can choose between ultra-secrecy and worldwide patents, or less secrecy and a US patent. Whether worldwide patents are necessary is up to you.

For example, if you know your only real competition is a giant company like Apple or Microsoft, you can afford to cover yourself with just a US patent. Why? Because they would never develop a major product that isn't marketable in the US.

There are companies that slip questionable patents through the system. However, the more vague and general a patent is, the longer it will take to push through. During the patent process, you can get rejected, and then have to revise it -- and for certain types of patents, it can go back and forth several times (meaning many years). So that's one concern -- during that time, you may have "Patent Pending" status, but there's no guarantee that you'll get it. But even having the patent is just the beginning of your worries. Most companies, when challenged with a patent, will look over the patent with a fine tooth comb before they respond. If there's ANY kink in the patent, they'll take it to court, and argue over every...single...word... (That's why you want to pay the experts to write the thing in the first place) If the patent is struck down, you may have to pay extensive damages. Also, in the US, the first response to any lawsuit is a counter-suit -- so there will actually be two whole sets of court costs.

So you don't want to challenge a company with your patent unless you're very, very sure the patent will stand up, and that you'll cover your court costs. Which means you're going after huge companies with potentially better lawyers than you.

All of this added up means the cards are stacked WAY against the small businessperson. Of course, if you are able to get a solid, basic patent through the system in a few major markets, you can massively stick it to your competition, and anyone who tries to bully you. It's one of the only ways a small company can gain leverage in a sea of large ones.

If you have any other questions, feel free to email! I'm in the middle of all this stuff right now...

- ben

Thanks Ben, I am already been working in ultra-secrecy mode too, I was a member of an association, a while ago, that did most of the leg work with the lawyers and educated us. But, until it is time to afford the lawyers, I will keep it secret and just survive on my ignorance.

Note, that I am not suggesting that it is a good idea to bi-pass a Patent Attorney, very few people are that good.

The companies with illegal prior-art patents have gotten away with it, in times past, because challenging and overturning the patent was so costly the companies (even reasonably large ones) effected just paid up royalties. I have actually been developing the idea of a fairer "tribute" based system to replace present patent and copyright idea.

Samsung presents 5 megapixel CMOS image sensor
http://www.dvhardware.net/article5561.html

2048x2048 pixel imafes at 30 frames second
http://www.sarnoffimaging.com/products_services/CAM4M30.pdf

Low prices low resolution but worth to read
http://www.dpreview.com/news/article_print.asp?date=0010&article=00102702cmosraceison

Mikron CMOS against the Panasonic CCD imager from the DMC FZ10
http://www.videsignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=60407126

Nice finds Ronald. Not really upto reading at the moment though I skimmed through much of it. I think those Samsung sensors sound like the ones I mentioned here last year, that I tried to enquire about. They're taking their time!

The Micron 60% fill factor sounds good, and so do integrated sensors with a USB2.0 bus (thats the one I've got to read when I'm clearer).

The Sarnoff one sounds very interesting, 70%QE, 1 inch+ etc. How much is it, are you planning on doing something with it?

Started up some new threads:

Technique for Pixel Shifting single chip sensors/cameras, and technique for increased detail in primary/complementary colour images:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=339561#post339561

Technique to decrease compression ratio in DV footage
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=339571#post339571


Something I was referring too before about patents:
http://www.wipo.int/pct/en/


New edition of the Mac Mini is a disappointment.

Haven't finished checking out the Sony HC1 yet, nice picture, but compression artifacts, lack of proper manual controls, interlacing and rolling shutter are disappointments. Lack of cheap component capture also problem.

Pity so many CCD's have rolling shutter problems to, understand future generation of CCD and CMOS will have better solutions.


Thanks for listening

Wayne.

From:
http://www.videsignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=60407126
Posted by Ron above.

Most CMOS image sensors analyzed have a fill factor range of around 30 percent. The changes made by Micron, however, have allowed for a 60 percent fill factor.

In fact, the light-capture area of the Micron sensor is five times larger, at 5 micron2, than the Panasonic CCD, at 1.2 micron2, though the CCD pixel size is much smaller. Although an improved CMOS process still suffers from more noise sources at the pixel than a CCD, even its detractors admit that capturing five times as many photons as the competition lets CMOS imagers close a big part of the image-quality gap.


I think this says a lot for the situation, low fill factor can wipe out high QE benefits. Even using micro lensing to increase effective fillfactory, may stop you from using very low apertures. But does anybody know how such small sensor pads, affect well capacity, and latitude?

Ronald, I am starting to look at the Elphel camera. I remember you always wanted a Linux camera, I think it can be user reprogrammed, and it even has a linux distro disc available to use it. As such it makes for an interesting camera development platform.

It would be good if somebody tied up the capture and editor translation side (for Cineralla). It is by far the cheapest of all options with on board compression and programmability. I am wondering if it can be programmed to write directly to an Ethernet external hard drive unit. Even though I heard Andrey does not believe it is suitable for our task, you could theoretically do the adjustments yourself. Have fun.

Forgot to mention, read recent report of January release of cheaper Intel based ibook Mac, shame that distro won't work on it.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511intelibook.html

Haven't been here for a while, but am still steadily collecting links to useful stuff for DIY cameras, hundreds actually. If anybody would like to sort and post the relevant ones, please give me a post, I am just incapable of getting to it.

Well, here is a thread on a comparison of new 500GB drives, there is a clear performance leader.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=442606#post442606

$100 MS Development system for xbox360:
http://news.com.com/2061-10797_3-6052255.html

As you know, this system has more than enough power for your video need.

Here is a new thread about web cams being modified (sensors changing as well) for astronomy. Generally I stay away from reprogramming these things, because you have to find programming information, that may mean a lot of work decoding the hardware, but if these guys have done it already then great. Web cams are cheap, some are good quality.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=455118#post455118

I post this link here for the Digital Cinema camera community subscribed to this thread, as many are not around, but it will turn up in their subscriptions, so they can take a look at the new thread. And people outside can respond to the thread directly if they are interested in the subject. As I have done in times past (but it seems that these notes are disappearing).

Here are some extra threads with relevant stuff:

AMD in talks with Clearspeed (coprocessor potential for H264/JPEG2K realtime editing):
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62984

Ambarella h264 codec chip 15Mb/s+, 1080/720p60 9Mb/s, $1K pro versions and cheap cam.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58391

H264 transcode acceleration
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62434


Cheap alternative way to record component from HD cameras
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=61343
Idea for low compression camera capture, even for digital cinema camera.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=62057


Doing 25Mb/s virtual 720p on the HC1/A1.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49895

New 3D 720p24 RAW camera in news:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=58537

You can talk about them there.

OK, something looks strange here.

But anyway, I have located a camerlink frame grabber card that has it's own drive controller and SCSI port for 140MB/s, yes, apparently seamless direct to disk picture acquisition without going through the PCI bus. The PCI bus is used for monitoring the footage on the computer screen.

Cost, well, believe it or not, I email the Canadian seller for price and ask some questions and for some reason he answers very little talks about USB cameras and tells me to contact the Australian distributor, and I still didn't get all my questions answered (a all too common "I give up" like problem these days, will phone rather then wait for emails in future) so I have not got a correct confirmed US price for you guys, but around $3KUS at maximum. Could be a lot cheaper, as 'distributors' over here tend to charge like a bull at a gate, but he did seem to indicate that was the price range.

Yes, I am peeved at all the time wasting.

This isn't anywhere is the price range that we were looking for, but if you look at it this way, as system built around this is a lot cheaper then the commercial cinema cameras out there. With one or two drives (backed up to cheaper ATA drives) a smaller computer (because it no longer needs to handle as much drive data). So, if anybody is interested, it is:

http://ioindustries.com/cameras.htm
http://ioindustries.com/cl160.htm
http://ioindustries.com/cl160system.htm

This is the baby board, they have full cameralink maxi boards as well.

Australia distributor:
http://www.adept.net.au/

Of curiosity, Epix has a PCIExpress cameralink frame grabbers. You will note, that the PIXCI® E1 version uses a very small one channel PCIExpress, similar to what the new Pciexpress laptop cards use, so hope yet that somebody will do a version for that (in case anybody doesn't know there has been a PC-CARD Cameralink card previously).

http://www.epixinc.com/products/index.htm


The guy from Adept mentioned that Coreco (I think that was the one, but check) cameralink cards had special trigger software features to ensure smooth live footage recording on PC's (unlike all that trouble we had programming other framegrabbers). He said the secret to smooth recording was a couple of simple things, I wasn't too bothered enough to ask what they were. But then again, there are always a lot of people telling me they know the answers to things, but it usually turns out different, so how can I know. Yes, it appears to be a Dalsa company, and you can predict what sort of camera he was trying to sell me ;)

http://www.imaging.com/
http://www.machinevisiononline.org/buyers_guide/company.cfm?company_id=224

An CL to Ethernet converter:
http://www.imaging.com/Web/home.nsf/MainFrame/MainFrame?OpenDocument&L_FS=Gb&C_FS=PgTopThirdGb&T_FIG=pg&C_FIG=PgNavDigitalSolutionGb&db_FID=products.nsf&T_FID=doc&C_FID=325C25631073DD6E852570AF0057830E?OpenDocument&idlogdocument=&L_FID=Gb

Well that is all for now, I am not feeling well. There might be something significant latter in the week.