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Régine Weinberg December 8th, 2004, 03:49 AM Well a guest you can read any posting in here, can you? With a real name you can too.
I do know that Intel for example is watching microcontroler and other forums on a day by day basis. So I do guess, that Altasens will deliver the ProCam market and does not talk about as this is common with CPU. If I comes true that we can do for 5k or 10k a flexible camera design with 1080i recording to dead cheap Sata array as disks , think of laptops from the shelf, used on fishing trawlers,a in Sport avionic, in artik reserch and so on, on the foolish sail race Vendee globe to name a fe. Tape is dead, to much mechanics ,a tape drive is vulnerable. Writing on any DVD the laser head is vulnerable, only a disk is sealed but they dont like it, as Cinema people stick to tape, only to take it out and pop it into a tapedrive elsewhere.
It is all politics, habits, tics,
have fun
Dear wayne and all the others:
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4887107636.html
that is only on of the board but is has RAID SATA, GIGE Ethernet, LOW power Fanless usb 2, Firewire, Graphics typical VIA stuff, they do have a dual fanless MOBO too and Linux ready and preloded
NO Noise CPU cooler, eg heatpipe
No noise CPU cooler
http://www.silverstonetek.com/products-nt01.htm
no noise power supply
http://www.silverstonetek.com/products-12a.htm
once found a powersupply no fan that
can be connectected to 24V DC
Wayne Morellini December 8th, 2004, 05:19 AM Ronald, my applogies, I think you misunderstood my meaning. I was just asking general opinion on what long delays in chip manufacturing stage mean, nothing specific. In old days (20 years ago) delays were often enough, but 6 month plus delays were distraterouse, but that knowledge is out of date now.
Wayne.
Régine Weinberg December 8th, 2004, 09:20 AM this is with GIGE Ethernet low, low power and fast the Dual CPU board just scroll down on the page a bit
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7787520286.html
Wayne Morellini December 11th, 2004, 11:11 AM David, I would like to pass this by you and other compression experts). I have just had a sudden revelation, maybe we are going about the compression the wrong way around. The following is given on the assumption of masses of future computing power. Though I am unsure that present machines can do it. For a next gen device I would suggest the IBM/SONY CELL processor (with power CPU core for Mac people) with staggering power and for consumer electronics (16 Teraflops per rack). With Linux programming it should be relatively easy.
Compression:
- Can be built for different ussages
- for transmission the routine has to provide complete frames every now and then for drop out, and extra data to rebuild data incase of corruption.
- For tape you have simular overhead.
- But because the data has to be compressed one frame at a time this reduces the overall compression rate, as you can not compress to many frames at once.
- With file compession greater lossless compression rates are possible because the whole file is compressed at once.
We don't need to use standards for single frame transmission and tape recording.
As we are going to be using mainboards that can take 8 gigabytes of memory in future, that is a lot more like a file than 6 frames worth of data. So we can get around some comrpession bottle necks and achieve greater comrpession. Somewhere I posted a link to the leading file compression routine, from what I remember we could well and truely break the 2:1 lossless compression ratio. I also would advocate the filtering of unwanted niose to increase compression (even thought this is not regarded as lossless).
So what do you think, within the range of possibility?
David Newman December 11th, 2004, 11:53 AM It is basically what CineForm does already, although we apply it to lossy compression (yes it's extendable to lossless -- one day.) It is why CineForm achieves 10bit compression at the same bit-rate as Avid's DNxHD 8bit mode. But the techniques of exploiting temporal redundancy has been known forever. The trick is to develop this style of compression suitable for post-production. You may have already seen our quality analysis at http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm, showing how two codecs around 100Mb/s can differ so greatly in quality. Wavelets aren't our only edge.
David
Wayne Morellini December 11th, 2004, 12:18 PM Yes I know. I haven't got around to analysing the page.
With my idea, you basically take in a chunk, apply compression, when you come to edit it, you convert/uncompress it to the desired format, and edit and do finale version of film. In work flow terms it is simple. The compression is for storage fo the huge amount of data that maybe usuable in future, and to cut down on the amount of drives needed in recording (and the data rate). You could use it for finale version to, but with 5:1-30:1 shooting ratios that may not be needed.
So if you are taking advantage of file compression is there any chance you will ever go to lossless soon (less the unwanted niose).
Do you think it is a viable interim recording solution, or is processing power way in excess of 3Ghz?
Wayne.
Laurence Maher December 12th, 2004, 07:59 AM Wow Guys,
Summix now claiming a cine-worthy camera now in March? This is what I was worried about guys. See, the fact remains that a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. So far, we've heard about cine-worthy cameras "coming soon" from Summix and SI and what not. Every once in a while someone gives vague hints of something their planning to have out as a sellable product soon, at best there are like 3 or 4 guys on dvinfo who actually have a working semi-working prototype of a home-built camera or an HD mod or whatever . . . okay . . . .
The point . . .
I think we might prepare ourselves for the posibility that these things won't really get off the ground until it's far past too late (i.e., by the tiime real, cheap, efficient home-grown cameras are a pratical reality, Sony and Panasonic and them will have a far more reliable cameras on or near the market that when all was said and done, won't be much more expensive for what you get.) I mean, we all know it's not as good to have 1080i at 25Mbps at 4:2:0, as it is 1080p at 200 Mbps and 4:4:4. But when you start to figure it can't be more than a year before someone announces a 3 chip true 16:9 camcorder at 1080 lines / 4:2:0 / and 25Mbps . . . with progressive frames and cine-gama and very possibly pre-compression RGB out . . . well, we all know it's coming.
Meanwhile, 1 month before it's announced, we finally get our home-grown thing going for say 5 k minimum when talking storage and power and laptops and yada yada, and here comes this camera now for just under 10k that's 10 times as user friendly and portable . . . and with each passing month HD projection in movie theaters is more popular and more higher quality methods of video to film transfers are becoming available . . . .
Hate to be the pessimist, guys, but we might brace ourselves for the reality in March when Summix/SI says it's coming in June, then September again, and then maybe if we're lucky, we'll get what we want in December or so . . . if the companies will still put them out after they know how many people are going to get the camcorders to come.
Just say'n I had a (now validated) feeling last year at this time we'd still be looking . . . and I now I've got a feeling about next year.
Let's hope not.
Summix?
SI?
Bueler? . . . Bueler?
Replies?
Laurence Maher December 12th, 2004, 08:42 AM Man, I can never remember . . .
Is it better to have "global" or "rolling" shutter for film-like cinematography?
Richard Mellor December 12th, 2004, 08:47 AM I don't think the big guys are ever going to give us a raw capture to hardrive. a friend of mine at avid was told directly by sony that
there mission between camera and software was to preserve the tape . not for the sake of a better product . but for the profit in making and selling tapes. fox news waited years to go hi def because the big guys were just so greedy. when nikon makes a 35mm camera the optics and machined precision require great skill. all of us can build a computer equal or better then a dell
this is now happing to the big camera guys. we can buy the same cmos they buy but like the computer we don't have to take the packaged features that they hand us.if they want to try and sell a camera for $75,000 that has a$2,000 1280 x720 camera as its base they just open thereselves up for competion from sumix and the like. the hottest selling audio product was not made by the audio giants It was made by a computer company. the ipod
Wayne Morellini December 12th, 2004, 10:58 PM Unlike most people here, I had a grasp on time frames, so thought that 3 months instead of one year was quick to get this camera, and it should have been possible but then everybody turned to Altasens. Now they have turned to FPGA, which is even more delays (to program it might take them six months, I know it can be done in one, but few people are that fast in programming them from scratch). The 3 chip is probably not too much delay. So things have changed and mounted up. The ussual. The camera could also be slotted in between other jobs.
At the moment there are working camera, just not cine grade software, and this is the release date for drake, who have been reworking their prototypes to make it work better for commercialisation. This life is not so good sometimes, I have seen it so many times in the last 20 years it is not funny, all prople can do in front up to help speed it along (extra money would help) or wait.
Rob Lohman December 14th, 2004, 09:19 AM Laurence: global shutter is better for cinematic work.
Wayne Morellini December 14th, 2004, 02:49 PM Hello, people have talked about these things before here is the Windows XP PDA, toshiba also announced 80 GB 1.8inch drives:
http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20041214/index.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20041214_120939.html
9 new Notebook drives listed, finally 720p performance:
http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20041213/notebook_hd-14.html
Laurence Maher December 14th, 2004, 11:39 PM Here's what I don't get . . .
If it takes 1 month to program the software for the 3 chip cmos, why isn't this thing done? We could all be using that until the altesens is out. There's always going to be a new chip coming out, guys. If you're always waiting for the bigger better technology, you'll never make a camera. Make one NOW, use it, and when the next comes out, make that then. 1920 X 1080 3 chips uncompressed is as good as one will need to make real feature films, trust me.
P.S.
I'd program the thing myself if I knew how to . . . but I don't.
Rob Lohman December 15th, 2004, 05:40 AM Laurance: the problem is obviously time. This takes a huge amount
of research, trial and error, optimizing, programming and testing.
Obin's programmer seems to be the one still moving forward at
this moment (Rai & Markus' camera is finished already!) and
Rob Scott and myself are currently just without time.
That is the whole problem. It is not as easy as slapping a few
parts together, especially not if you want 10 or 12 bit recording.
I for one do this in my sparetime and over the last 3 months this
has just been almost completely absent. Sorry.
Wayne Morellini December 15th, 2004, 10:07 AM I missed the bit about one month to do the three chip software, where is it?
Laurence, we have been using two micro cameras and a IBIS camera for a while but it is the cinema quality capture software we are waiting for.
I am very frustrated too, after waiting for JVC HD10 replacement, new HDV cameras, and now for these cameras, but I have no real option at the moment. If i want HD raw, I have to wait.
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn December 15th, 2004, 10:43 PM That seems to be the problem.
Users are users and developers, although being users too, are a different breed...
Normal end users don't have a clear idea about how much time and frustrations are required to be able to get to a product a non technical user can operate...
I, myself as a stupid developer in ANSI C, have made lots of video software which is good for the things I made it, but which cannot be used by anyother guy because of the lack of user friendly features.When it is not working for me I just open it, tweak a couple of things, compile and keep going.A normal user cannot do that and tht's why it takes months to be able to give people what the want.
Just my 2 cents..
Richard Mellor December 18th, 2004, 09:54 AM this is a link from a member .
It has some hd clips from that camera.
the street price is around $3,700
http://www.subgunvideos.com/videos/Rob%20Silvers%20Videos/Shrike%20Videos/
Steve Nordhauser December 18th, 2004, 10:25 AM Laurence,
I understand your frustration. There are two levels here - one is the basic camera and the other is a fully functional system solution for movie making. We've been selling IBIS-5 cameras for two years, 720p Microns for over a year and 1080 24fps Microns for over half a year. Obin has (two now) SI-3300 cameras and he is getting results on the system solution. If you want an Altasens, place an order now - the next production run is due in early January.
Yes, we are at the mercy of the sensor vendors but there is a development cycle to deal with. Frequently we have our design done, PCBs layed out and fabricated, just waiting for sensors. Sometimes the sensors are cancelled, sometimes delayed due to problems requiring another 8 week fab cycle and sometimes the specs change requiring board relayout before we can start testing.
The bigger problem is the length of time from when a camera is available to when a system solution can be done. This may change when people like Obin have their first product out and just integrate in a new camera front end but the first time through takes a long time as all the decisions are new and require research before implementing. That is why I see working with people doing integration as an investment.
If you need something now, buy an SI-3300-RGB-GR and Streampix and you can be recording 1920x1080, 10 bits, 24fps raw data.....tomorrow. Not elegant but it works.
Wayne Morellini December 18th, 2004, 11:04 AM What a day, after findout about the Sony's HD output, I haved just found a Link to programming the JVC HD/PD series from a link over at camcorder info.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.repaire.net/forums/showthread.php%3Fs%3D%26threadid%3D51369&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djvc%2Bpd1%2Bbios%2B24%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
Very unclear (in multiple langauages) but it talks about programming it in the Toas language, the hidden programming port near the firewire, programming and flash, 24fps, and HD.
Starting a seperate thread about it.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36574
Laurence Maher December 20th, 2004, 12:24 PM Wayne,
Do you know for sure that the component out is uncompressed?
Wayne Morellini December 20th, 2004, 06:07 PM That is what the people are claiming, but at the same time, I see how they could be mistaken. Just because seperate datapaths goes from Black chip A (?) to compressor and component, doesn't mean the two aren't linked. I assume they know to examine if the datapath is one way data. If the datapath is bi-directional, then the data canbe sent to the compressor, sent back again then to the component (and the rest is probably a bit of hype). You get my meaning, as I don't have an FX1 (and probably won't at the local price, even if it is uncomrpessed) I can't trest myself. The blackchip might be a hub, all data flows into, and out of, a central organising chip, so is passed back and foward toi get to individual chips. Probably the best test is to throw a computer generated random niose picture into the camera that should completely stuff the comrpessor circuit, and then compare the output to the original digitally (still a bit tricky to setup right).
Wayne.
Wayne Morellini December 20th, 2004, 08:43 PM I just read a Tomshardware news artical that claims that sub $500 notebooks are now common on compusa (I think that was the site) and listed a Linux Laptop for less than $500 but only !GHZ at the moment (they also have a second part DVexpo report). This gets me thinking, if laptops are going to be under $500 in future with fast enough processor and Gigae, that is a very viable alternative to bying an ITX MB, especially if you consider that it may coem with 720p compatable LCD. Even if you wanted to put everything in a case, all that entails is breaking down the laptop and refiting it is a more suitable style case.
Omar Saad January 2nd, 2005, 04:35 PM Hi Guys, I just wanted to say first off that I am new to this site but have been reading for the past week or so on what you are doing with the "home made hd cameras" and i am completely facsinated. I have been reading as much as i can as there is a tone of posts to catch up on so i'm not sure if you have addressed this particular camera/sensor....but how viable would it be to use this Dalsa Pantera SA 2M30? It says that it outputs 1080p @ up to 30fps. I can't however find anything about the price. Does anyone know if this a good option for the sensor/camera protion and have an idea what it costs?
http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/2m30.asp
keep up the good work,
Omar
Rob Lohman January 3rd, 2005, 04:59 AM Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Omar!
I don't know the price either, but if it isn't listed it usually is in a
pricerange that "normal" people cannot afford....
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn January 3rd, 2005, 10:12 PM Last time I got a quotation from Dalsa for a 2K model it was around 6,000 bucks or the like....
Not so bad for a good quality CCD.
Omar Saad January 3rd, 2005, 10:38 PM Thanks Rob, I glad to finally contribute a post!
Juan thanks for the info....that's a bit pricey, but based on the info on their site and what little I know about CCD's it seems like it would output one hell of a nice image. I wonder if it is similar to the CCD they use in their digital cinema camera?
Wayne Morellini January 4th, 2005, 06:30 AM I have tried to contact them about pricing, and got some ... locally distributor that wants to know the information allready included in the email he is replying to (why me). I have noted that their 6MP model should get close to 24fps in a panavision style window of interest. But if they are going to be much more than the 2MP model, it is a bit piontless.
I have been thinking, if we wanted a large performance camera (for documentary or cheap cinema production) then we could use 3 chip pixel shifted SD progressive camera head. With the larger cell size we should have tremendouse latitude, SN, and maxinum satuation values. But I have no idea who the leaders in performance, or value, are in the SD market, let alone the cmos sensor side of it.
Does anybody know of any cheap 3 chip prisms, or how to put a chip prism together cheap.
Wayne.
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn January 4th, 2005, 02:09 PM Well, what you say is right .The problem of all this is the word "cheap".
There is no "cheap" way to do what you are asking, because you need expensive machinery, trained professionals and a special facility to be able to play with chips and prisms.
And in the end that three chips with prism will be far more expensive than a single sensor of higher resolution.
Wayne Morellini January 4th, 2005, 02:21 PM But allways humbly, much better. OK if there is none, there is none. I would have thought they would have been pretty standardised and fitable like normal prisms, not having to be custom made for each sensor.
Thanks.
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn January 4th, 2005, 05:28 PM You misunderstood what I said.
The prisms are stanadard.The difficult part is mounting the chips on them with enough precision and a really clean environment.
Then you have the added cost of three times the electronics required for a single sensor.....
So at the end all this together gets higher cost than just a bigger resolution chip.
I hope it is clearer now.
Wayne Morellini January 5th, 2005, 04:44 AM OK, I understand now, that canbe arranged (though the mounting method would have to be thoroughly researched). Now show me a 9 mpixel or 18 mpixel chip that can do 24fps at such latitude and sensitivty, at even four times the price. Now do you understand. Please stop it, I don't need such conviently negative answers everytime I say something "slightly" challenging.
Wayne Morellini January 10th, 2005, 11:00 PM I got around to posting a adaptor screen technology (face plates), and image down scaling technology for direct sensor chip connection (tapers). Good stuff, hi res, high transmission options. The post is here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&postid=261489#post261489
Laurence Maher January 25th, 2005, 04:17 AM Anyone heard anything from SI or SUMMIX? Seem to be out of touch on the boards anyway.
Steve Nordhauser January 25th, 2005, 09:16 AM I'm still around. Things are happening. Things will be announced. Instead of "out of touch" think "low profile".
Wayne Morellini January 25th, 2005, 09:52 AM Whatever happened to the camera, I thought it was go for Jan the 9th?
Steve Nordhauser January 25th, 2005, 01:52 PM OK Wayne, since you asked, the sensors are in and a bunch of cameras are in production. If you order 20 or more it might take us a few weeks but the Altasens cameras are available.
There is basic support on the Epix frame grabbers, same on the gigabit ethernet interface and the Coreco X64 CL iPro will be ready in a few weeks.
Conact me off the list if you want more information - this is just an announcement.
Thanks,
Steve
Rob LaPoint January 25th, 2005, 02:23 PM Steve, if you would'nt mind refreshing me, have you sucessfully captured 1080@24 over the GIG-E?
Steve Nordhauser January 25th, 2005, 03:25 PM Rob,
We have already done that with the SI-3300 at 10 bits per pixel. It shouldn't be a problem with the SI-1920HD at 12 bits - even upacked that is just below the 100MB/sec max rate with our custom driver. 12 bits packed is only 75MB/sec.
Obin Olson January 25th, 2005, 06:59 PM <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : I'm still around. Things are happening. Things will be announced. Instead of "out of touch" think "low pro
file". -->>>
Low-profile..i kinda feel the same way Steve ;)
BTW I think my banging on the Epix hall of doors is about to pay off...
Wayne Morellini January 27th, 2005, 12:36 AM I've just finished a five day (and night) stiint recovering my system and data. Cheap, plentiful and freeware software, and web compatibility is just not enough to put up with this PC stuff.. I was planing on waiting to see the dual processor ITX server board (in a few months), but now I am wondering if I should just go Mac, unfortunately the only cheap hi-speed power PC system (the XBOX2) won't run the Mac OS ;)
I know a few people here are big on Mac, so any advice on moving to the MAC for Cinema Camera video editing (and capture) on the cheap? How would the workflow/capture (I assume none for Cinema cameras), speed, memory, disk, cameralink/GIGE/USB2 etc be organised?
If anybody would like to discuss the generalities of going from PC to Mac and Mac SD/HD video capture and editing that would be fine too.
Wayne.
Laurence Maher January 28th, 2005, 06:56 AM If you remember, last year at this time I was in terrible editing hell. I had bought 3 PC's in an attempt to edit one feature, due to the fact that they kept giving me problems as they went on, and eventually would fail. Last summer I bit the bullet and bought a Mac Dual Gig OSX system. And I can safely say that my editing troubles for the most part have dissappeared. I simply can't believe how much time I wasted using PC's but it is a lesson I will NEVER FORGET. Macs are wonderful. They are fast. They are reliable. They are user friendly. And if you buy Final Cut Pro HD, you have opportunities beyond what you imagined. Want to shoot DV? Set it for DV. Want SD? Set for SD. Want HD, set for HD and it's all over firewire. That's right, 4:2:2 1080p 24p . . . clean . . . over firewire. The FCPHD codecs are wondeful, and have revolutionized cheap quality HD editing. Firewire drives are cheap now, about a buck a gig. I've got 500 gigs of mirrored (yes backed up) space to do with what I want. If I need another 250 gig, that's 250 bucks. Not a bad freaking deal. Haven't messed much with SDI or AKA board or gigabit etherrnet, but I'm convined that a mac can do it.
My bottom line is this. Yes, you'll spend a bit more off the start. You'll want an HD display or something, and getting the Mac OSX isn't necessarily cheap. Butt I got myself completely set up from around 8k. That's complete with 500 gigs storage, 500 backup. Two 23 inch HD displays that share the desktop between the 2 of them (I drag from one screen to the next). I've got duel 2 gig speed and mega ram. The machine crashes maybe once a week . . . maybe if it's been on the whole time. It's fast efficient editing that YOU CAN RELY ON. You don't have to open up your computerr guts unless another drive goes in. In one word, Mac is AWESOME.
To think of the years I wasted (around 5 years) listening to all these people claiming PC's are more cost efficient. NO THEY'RE NOT. Becasue by the time you spend the amount of hours fixing they're problems, you've wasted days, weeks, months, and in my case, years. Compared to mac, they suck.
If you're a technician and like repairing things and the challenges of cheap technology, well okay. Otherwise . . . MAC FOR IT!!!!!
You have my word it's the best investment you'll ever make.
By the way, I got mine through my father with a student faculty discount. Mac offers a nice student faculty discount. Like 20 percent. I bought FCP HD for half off. Just about all software is half off.
Find someone going to school and have them buy it for you much cheaper.
P.S. You don't need the newest Mac either, get the next one down from the one that came out most recently. They're cheaper and tried and tested with all the bugs already tested and fixed.
MAC MAC MAC MAC MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
. . . mac?
Laurence Maher January 28th, 2005, 07:13 AM Okay, so you're saying the altezens chip cameras are being put together as we speak? And with all the bells and whistles, 4:4:4, global shutter, 24p +, 1920 X 1080, 12 bit, 64 Mhz, 75-100Mbps? Yes?
Lens mount?
Camera interface? . . . Can Gigabit ethernet go directly into mac (something for mac maybe)?
Accompanying Software?
Bayer Filter or no?
Dynamic Range?
Overcrank/Faster Frame rates?
Expected date ready for shipping?
If this is the camera we're waiting for, I'm seriously interested (Making a semi-budget feature soon)
Details to actionvideo@charter.net or laurencemaher@hotmail.com please
Thanks for your hard work!
Steve Nordhauser January 28th, 2005, 09:50 AM Laurence:
Okay, so you're saying the altezens chip cameras are being put together as we speak? And with all the bells and whistles, 4:4:4, global shutter, 24p +, 1920 X 1080, 12 bit, 64 Mhz, 75-100Mbps? Yes?
Some bells and one or two whistles.
The Altasens is a rolling shutter camera, not global shutter. At 24/30fps, you can skip every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifact.
12 bit raw data streaming from the camera.
Up to 150Mpix/sec (think system design with this number)
Up to 60fps, full res (programmable clock)
Lens mount? 2/3" format c mount
Camera interface? . . . Can Gigabit ethernet go directly into mac (something for mac maybe)?
No Mac support. PC for capture.
Accompanying Software?
Interface dependent. Nothing right now that is designed for the DV community. Recording SW is an issue right now. We are working on initial support for Epix and Coreco FGs and gigabit. Epix provides some recording, Norpix is compatible, Obin is coming along.....Still not plug in and start recording the way you need it......
Bayer Filter or no? Mono or Bayer color
Dynamic Range? Yes. Testing now. "Very good" Long discussion that I will address separately. The chip can do 10+ stops at ISO 400, depending on where you set middle grey.
Overcrank/Faster Frame rates? If the system can handle it, 60fps @1080, over 120fps @ 720
Expected date ready for shipping?
Next week.
Wayne Morellini January 28th, 2005, 10:20 AM <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Laurence:
The Altasens is a rolling shutter camera, not global shutter. At 24/30fps, you can skip every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifact.
-->>>
OK I notice you keep on saying this, but isn't the rolling shutter on the Altsens around 400FPS (becaus of extremly fast read out). This is far above the 60fps, drop every second frame, people have advocated on other cameras to solve the rolling shutter problem. Is there some restriction that stops this fast rolling shutter feature on your camera?
Laurence, thanks for the advice, what I would have hoped for.
Tech news, The 2Ghz+ version of the VIA chip might be delayed 6 months, so I expect we might see slower versions on the original release date. No news on the dual core. The Ibis 3 chip Sumix camera might not be a reality for quiet a while, they will be coming with the other one first.
Jason Rodriguez January 28th, 2005, 10:29 AM Laurence, I couldn't have said it any better :)
Steve Nordhauser January 28th, 2005, 10:31 AM Wayne:
From the Altasens 3560 data sheet:
Pixel rate Nominal 150 MHz or 74.25 MHz (SMPTE 274M)
Image Capture Electronic Focal Plane Rolling Shutter
Main clock 74.25 MHz nominal, two pixel values per clock edge
Max. frame rate 60 Hz progressive or 60 Hz interlaced at full resolution with line-mixing
To get data off the chip at 400fps (2.1Mpix x 12 bits) is about a 10Gbps rate. There is no internal storage in the chip and none external. Somewhere, something would have to accept the data at that rate. The internal shift registers, the A/D converters and storage would all have to run at that rate.
Wayne Morellini January 28th, 2005, 10:32 AM Rob S, where are you?
How's the capture software going?
Wayne.
Wayne Morellini January 28th, 2005, 10:40 AM <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne:
From the Altasens 3560 data sheet:
Pixel rate Nominal 150 MHz or 74.25 MHz (SMPTE 274M)
Image Capture Electronic Focal Plane Rolling Shutter
Main clock 74.25 MHz nominal, two pixel values per clock edge
Max. frame rate 60 Hz progressive or 60 Hz interlaced at full resolution with line-mixing
To get data off the chip at 400fps (2.1Mpix x 12 bits) is about a 10Gbps rate. There is no internal storage in the chip and none external. Somewhere, something would have to accept the data at that rate. The internal shift registers, the A/D converters and storage would all have to run at that rate. -->>>
Get my head around that latter, but I don't mean off chip frame rate but the actual special high speed shuttering feature independent of the off chip frame rate. I have to see a freind off on the plane early this morning, so I will have to look it up again latter.
Wayne Morellini January 30th, 2005, 07:29 AM I see, the JVC box camera must have used a memory buffer to eliminate the image skew, I thought the pixels had a buffer memory cell attached to each pixel to do it. That must be one of the biggest bummers since finding out the Ibis was pathetic. I thought I read somewhere of some other mechanism to eliminate rolling shutter. So you can't just snap shot the thing (blocking integration after a shutter period, and read the thing out slowly, at the frame rate (24fps).
Your PDF data sheet says:
Rolling Shutter... The crispness or detail of the line is determined by the shutter speed (integration time). The extreme high-speed readout of the MegaCameraHD any such motion artifacts are minimized. The benefit of rolling shutter mode, is that exposure and readout are overlapping, enabling full frame exposures without reducing frame rate.
It seems to be promising that the camera will reduce rolling shutter lag through high speed read out. Has there been a design change?
Steve Nordhauser January 30th, 2005, 06:51 PM The quote from the data sheet just says what we have been doing all along. If you want to run at a frame rate of 24fps, you can readout at up to 60fps with a longer blanking time and get less rolling shutter artifacts. You can also shorten the integration time (like a shutter speed) to minimize motion blur. You will still get the top line one frame readout time ahead of the last but they will all have a shorter exposure.
What you are asking for is a global shutter - expose the sensor - every line - at one time and then stop exposing it. Or you can use a mechanical shutter.
Maybe you are confusing that 500fps Micron sensor?
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