According to Panasonic, the GS400 has 30P. (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/More-Details-Revealed-Regarding-Panasonic-PV-GS400.htm)

I guess I did read the Japanese site correctly.

So, what does Pana imply ?

30P is easier than 24P ? 24P has better video than 30P ?

Hmm, all this 24p mania makes me wonder.... fast forward about 20 years:

July 2024: Panasonic introduces a new camera that features 60i in response to customer demand for a way to create the look and feel of classic TV programs.

This isn't the first time Panasonic has used 30p to describe a "frame mode" camcorder. The GS100 was often listed on Japanese sites as 30p and occassionally it was followed with an asterik and/or footnote that let you know that their 30p was not progressive scan and suffered resolution loss just like the DV953 and the soon to be released GS400.

"July 2024: Panasonic introduces a new camera that features 60i in response to customer demand for a way to create the look and feel of classic TV programs."

Boyd, not to start a war here, but can you elaborate?

I think when most people think about the look and feel of classic t.v. programs, they think about shows shot on film (ie. 24 fps) and then telecined to play on NTSC...

Um, I was trying to be a bit sarcastic, sorry if my humor was obscure. It seems that everyone wants to make their new video cameras look like old film cameras these days. Perhaps the circle will complete in the future when everything is progressive scan, and people will want the interlaced look.

AFAIK, TV shows like Wheel of Fortune, Jerry Springer, The Tonight Show, The Peoples' Court, Days of our Lives, etc. are all shot on 60i video (the list goes on and on).

And when such a day comes, and a manufacturer announces the innovation of a new 60i camera, there will be much heated discussion in the forums as to whether or not it's "real" 60i. ;-)

Hey.... it was a joke, not anything to start a 'war' over. Happy fourth of July all! Now back to more serious things...

and then I thought more about it and you're right - I think shows like Carol Burnett and even All in the Family were shot interlaced - looking at All in the Family re-runs, it's almost like watching a play - so actually, you're very right! even a lot of stuff in europe is shot interlaced and they don't do anything about it but i guess because it's 25 fps pal, it comes out looking more filmic.

the query was made elsewhere regarding this cam - will the european pal version have 25 fps progressive for its cinema mode then since pal is 25 fps? for those 24 fps die-hards, they could then just get the pal version of the camera.

this camera seems very exciting for the price point. considering the high-effective pixel count per ccd for motion, i think it will kill agdvc30 sales unless people want that night-vision mode.

whoa, gotta hand it to panasonic - they are really gung-ho to go after the indie film scene with something like this - even the traditional 1/3" cams are too pricey for some starving artist types, especially those starting out.

i'm supposed to be going to dv expo east next month to cover it for the television show I work on in Toronto about indie filmmaking for a digital channel - I wonder if I'll be visiting with Chris Hurd at the Canon booth to talk about something *very* exciting?

Just so everyone is on the right track.

The GS400 will not have progressive scan. It will continue the DV953 and GS100 tradition of frame mode.

30p is only referring to the 30 frames per second of the "frame mode". I think this is misleading and Panasonic should change the wording. You have to think if the GS400 really did have true progressive scan (no resolution loss) it would be in bold caps.

There's the same argument going on about the new sony 350- sony says 30p and everyone is saying "it's not really 30p" and here. panasonic says 30p and it's something else, whatever, frame mode ! Well , just maybe they're saying what they mean and we're getting two , new 30p cameras.

Kurth, that would be nice to have progressive scan on the GS400. Download a copy of the GS400 manual and you will see it also references frame mode.

Maybe a stupid question but please allow me :-))

Can a cam both have frame mode and progressive scan mode features (the REAL progressive thingy you guys are talking about) at the same time, or you can only have one or the other?

That illustation posted in camcorderinfo is exactly the same explanation of the procinema mode found in the GS100. As far as I understand (or misunderstand), it is frame mode + cinelike-gamma + HQ widescreen + bass enhancer. If you don't like HQ widescreen and/or cinelike-gamma, it is also possible to activate frame mode and combine it with normal aspect ratio and the user's preferred color settings. Bass enhancer setting can likewise be manually adjusted.

For the PAL model, naturally it is expected to be 25 frames per second...because it's PAL :-)).

I've never seen a cam with both frame mode and progressive scan because if you have PS then frame mode is a waste due to its resolution loss. Some get confused by progressive shutter for stills but most cams these days lack progressive scan (unlike a few years back..).

I've removed a section from an official Panasonic DVC30 brochure that is a much better example of them explaining their frame mode and carefully avoiding any confusion between it and progressive scan.

Click here for the DVC30 brochure excerpt (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/DVC30info.jpg)

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I've never seen a cam with both frame mode and progressive scan because if you have PS then frame mode is a waste due to its resolution loss.


Yeah, you're absolutely right. So if this is the real progressive scan thing, then Pany should not be using the phrase "frame mode" anywhere in its manuals and menus. Thanks Tommy.

I'm with Boyd, 60fps all the way brotha. But, can it be REAL progressive please?

:-)

By the way, I simply LOVE the 15fps in my PD170. I'm serious!

Well, I have an email in to Panasonic for clarification on the 30P. However, it is possible that they made changes to the firmware but didn't change the manual. Sorta like when they put optical image stabilization on the DV953 but didn't change the menus which say EIS. From a functional point of view 30P is frame mode so a consumer wouldn't know the difference. In fact, someone will want to measure resolution for it anyway.

However, it is possible that they made changes to the firmware but didn't change the manual.

I thought progressive scan required progressive scan CCDs?

Let us know what they say.

Working in post with footage my gs100, it did seem like progressive frame footage to me.

Perhaps Panny is misusing the term "frame mode". I find it hard to believe a company identified with their progressive video mode is trying to pass off a faux 30p mode.

As for the diff between 30p and 24p to the average user, it is indecipherable. Video types can see 30p looks just a tad more "video", but it's much better than 24p for pans or any quick camera movement.

The only downside to 30p is that transferring out to film is much more difficult than transferring out from 24p.

But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam?

>>>But who's going to shoot a feature with this cam?<<<

I'm sure that it can be done, and easily. All you'd need is the other gear (lighting, audio stuff, monitor etc), script and actors. :-))

Tommy,
AFAIK all CCDs are progressive. It is what the firmware does with the image from that point that make a difference. The CCD data is read into buffers and manipulated there. Your reference to Steve Mullen's article explains it pretty well. If the GS400 has 30P, then the 30P image will be less light sensitive than in frame mode. That will mean poorer low light performance in that mode.

GS400 with progressive scan but the DVC30 with frame mode?

Come on guys don't start a progressive scan conspiracy! :)

Its like buying a car and finding out it has a V8 under the hood while advertisements and even the car manual stated it has a V6. Its not logical for a company to neglect a popular buzzword like Progressive Scan when you see it smeared all over the front of $50 DVD players with inadequate 27MHz DACs (see also Bluetooth).

Thanks for the info Guy!

Then how come spec sheets are very specific (well at least I'm referring to Japanese spec sheets) that a certain CCD is interlaced type or progressive scan type.

In my observation, Pany's frame mode per se looks brighter than normal (interlaced) mode whether it be under 4:3 or widescreen. What makes procinema look dimmer is the cinelike-gamma. As far as my eyes can distinguish, the only difference between Pany's frame mode and procinema is the color saturation. The jerky motion and resolution/clarity appear to be the same. But of course, I don't have a resolution meter to verify that.

The DVX100 has progressive scan CCD right? What about DVC30? I remember the latter has interlaced CCD with frame mode? Well, somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, you're right, I will never be able to distinguish between frame mode and progressive scan mode anyway. In the first place, I'm not even sure if I had actually seen a progressive scan footage :-)).

Having said that, how do you know if a footage or frame grab is frame mode or progressive scan mode by simple looking at it?

Pany's older catalogues define procinema as 30 frames per second Progressive shooting. The latest one (July 2004) containing the GS400, simply states that procinema is 30 frames per second shooting. Oh well. An interesting feature in any case :-))

Whether progressive or frame mode, the difference is in the resolution. I suppose the only way to tell is to measure the vertical resolution. Frame mode on a DV953 produces 290 vertical lines of resolution. Max is 360 lines, according to Steve Mullen. Ah, that is in 16:9 mode.

What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is progressive scan? 500+???

You think that there'd be any way to flash the gs100's menus with a dump from the gs400's?

It will be interesting to see how many lines the GS400 has in its 16:9 mode. The GS100 had 370 but also had a 1.04x vertical zoom. Indications appear that the GS400 has no vertical zoom or a very micro amount.

> What would be the expected vertical resolution if it is
> progressive scan? 500+???

I think when capturing a non-moving object (like a resolution chart) the resolution of interlaced, frame mode or progressive scan should be the same. The differences appear with moving images.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how could it be over 500 when there are only 480 vertical lines?

From what I've read Ignacio, on a true progressive scan camera like the DVX-100a the vertical resolution is much higher, approaching the vertical limit of 480. I believe that this issue has to do with vertical blending that is intentionally introduced into the image for interlaced video (and presumably for frame mode also, which evidently has even less vertical res).

Picture a thin horizontal line in an image that's only one pixel tall. In this case the line would only appear in every other interlaced field. This would cause the line to flicker on and off. The cameras are designed to prevent this by averaging lines from the odd and even fields. From what I've read this limits the vertical res of our prosumer cameras to about 360 lines, and tests I've done would seem to confirm this.

Well, CCDs in video cameras are interesting subjects. There are several different designs and methods of outputting the video. Thought I would post some references and you can noodle on them.

Progressive: What You Need to Know (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFE/is_2002_August_1/ai_90473426)
What is Progressive Scan (http://www.pinnaclevision.co.uk/wpprogscan.htm)
Sony Semiconductor (http://products.sel.sony.com/semi/nrpsccd1.html)
Choosing a CCD (http://www.electronicproducts.com/ShowPage.asp?SECTION=3700&PRIMID=&FileName=KODAK.feb2004.html)
Panasonic CCDs (http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/cat/pdf/A00006IE05.pdf) (Shows the relationship of the CCD to other parts of the camera system.)

that last link looks like part of that PDF that i found the other day detailing Pana's entire range of CCD's =)

it's a goodun =)

If somebody could please enlighten this confused and sleepy head :-)

Vertical resolution is the same as no. of horizontal lines???

How are horizontal lines of resolution such as 500, 510, 520, 530 and 540 achieved if the maximum vertical resolution is 480?

Goodnight from Tokyo :-))

It is confusing terminology, but you have your horizontal and vertical confused. If your screen was a spreadsheet the rows would be vertical lines and the columns would be horizontal lines. The complete DV image consists of 480 vertical lines (rows) and 720 horizontal lines (columns). The spec that you usually see on camcorders refers to the horizontal resolution, which is the number of dots running from left to right than can be resolved (actually this gets complex, so this is a simplification).

Generalizing again, resolution is measured in a square area of the image, so the maximum number of vertical lines is 480. Measuring from left to right you need to take into account that the pixels are not square and have an aspect ratio of ~.9. So in the same space as the 480 vertical pixels you would have 480/.9 = 533 horizontal pixels. Therefore the maximum horizontal resolution in DV is about 530 lines.

Now maybe someone with a little more tech know-how can elaborate on this, but I think this explains the general concept...

Seems Boyd is right on, again. Here (http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/index.html) is an explanation that has been posted before from Beale Corner.

Here's some more explanations.

http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic1/201res.htm

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidres.htm#Example1

If in fact all CCDs progressively scan, as was suggested by a previous poster, but most have the scanned lines read in an every-other interlaced pattern, how does this explain the inter-line blurring in still captures of moving subjects from interlaced video?

If the lines are actually captured in one progressive sequence per frame, even if they are read and transferred as interlaced, that should reduce or eliminate the inter-line blurring of moving subjects. This does not happen with footage from an "interlaced" camera, as stills from moving subjects are usually blurred, to some degree.

A related feature to this is demonstrated by Sony's "progressive-shutter", used to capture still pictures without blurring, on an interlaced-scanning system. All the lines are captured from the same short open-shutter period, so no motion blurring occurs between adjoining interlaced lines.

Anyone who can decipher and understand what I just wrote, could probably clear up this incongruity.

Steve McDonald

> Anyone who can decipher and understand what I just wrote, could
> probably clear up this incongruity.

Jjajajaja yes, I'm sure ;-)

First of all, as far as I have been able to grasp from some of the stuff that has been linked, no, some CCD chips are not progressive capable at all.

When you freeze a frame of video from an interlaced sensor, depending on the software used and such, you are usually freezing a frame which contains one set of lines from one instant in time (one field) and another set of lines from another instant in time (the other field), so you when things are moving from one instant to the next, you get that characteristic interlaced double image.

You can either discard half of the lines and duplicate or interpolate from the others (and thus lose 50% vertical resolution), or combine and resample the information from both sets of lines (and also lose some resolution but not as much). I don't know which one of the two, but Sony digital still cams that lack a real progressive scan sensor use one of these methods. My old Mavica had a "frame" and a "field" mode where you could enable or disable this. When there is little or no movement, it is better not do deinterlace and you get full resolution, but when there is movement you can get rid of the motion artifacts by duplication or interpolation.

I am not sure if the newer Sony digicams have real proscan CCDs, continue to have frame/field modes or simply deinterlace behind the scenes.

Boyd,

Good analogy with the spreadsheet. To take this horizontal resolution thing a bit further, here is my understanding.

Horizontal resolution rating is pretty much an indicator of the quality of glass on the camera.

My 953 is rated at 570 lines while the XL-1 lense resolves over 600 lines. Hence, the XL-1 produces a 'sharper image' on the 720 horizontal spreadsheet columns(to use your analogy). Broadcast camera lenses tend to be rated at 800 or above meaning they have 'the sharpest' image projected onto the 720 horizontal pixels. I understand of course that high end cameras also achieve superior images with more than good glass, but I'm just illustrating a point.

Put another way, let's say you and I have identical resolution (720 pixels) on our retinas (ccd's). However, your cornea (lense) is better than mine so you would have 'clearer' vision.

regards,

I spent almost an hour playing with both the black and silver GS400 last night. Didn't want to put the cam down but the store was closing :-).

When you activate procinema mode, the LCD displays the Jap word "Procinema" on the upper left side and directly under it, the Jap word "Frame" is also displayed. The GS100 does not do the same thing.

So, Allan, what do you conclude from that? Does the picture degrade in that mode versus interlaced widescreen, for example? From the videos you posted, it seems that procinema and widescreen modes have similar resolution.

Getting back to the press release. The marketing person seemed to be saying the gs400 has more in common with the dvx than with the gs200 or previous dv953. The chart clearly shows they are capturing a full progressive image and saving it as 2 interlaced images (like 30p of the dvx). Now all of you are saying this is not so? Who to believe....

btw...

Simplified Horizontal resolution for the math challenged
is the number of vertical lines going from left to right...
example...
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Simplified Vertical res
is the number of horizontal lines from top to bottom
example...
_____________
_____________
_____________
_____________
_____________

NTSC rectangles are wider than tall

PAL rectangles are taller than wide.
Thats why when converted to square PC pixels you end up with
more vertical resultion to work with in you nle. (very simplified answer to PAL resolution).


And if the gs400 is true 30p/25p then I may buy it. But not if it's only 'fake' progressive (frame * 2).
The marketing person seems to want this to be the camera for those who want the dvx but can't afford it.

The chart clearly shows they are capturing a full progressive image and saving it as 2 interlaced images (like 30p of the dvx). Now all of you are saying this is not so? Who to believe....
No, we aren't saying that at all. Frame mode and 30P will both save and output the fields the same way...as two interlaced fields. It has to be this way to be compatible with NTSC and PAL TVs. What isn't clear is how the two fields are created. Progressive captures both fields without interpolation of the rows. Frame mode interpolates the rows which reduces the resolution but increases the light sensitivity. We are still waiting on Panasonic US to clarify their press statement.

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Getting back to the press release. The marketing person seemed to be saying the gs400 has more in common with the dvx than with the gs200 or previous dv953. The chart clearly shows they are capturing a full progressive image and saving it as 2 interlaced images (like 30p of the dvx). Now all of you are saying this is not so? Who to believe....

Like I previously posted, EXACTLY the same explanations and illustrations were given by Panasonic Japan with the PROCINEMA function of the GS100, the black mamba to some. There are enough members of this board who own the GS100. So what do they say about the Procinema feature of their cam?

Just how difficult is it to replace the word FRAME by PROGRESSIVE in both the menus and the LCD displays?

I am no Japanese but I think I have familiarize myself enough to know how painfully detailed and accurate and practical they are when in comes to choice of words and classification, especially for technical terms. This is a country that calls X-Ray as Roentgen.


The marketing person seems to want this to be the camera for those who want the dvx but can't afford it. -->>>

That marketing person better learn some Japanese first and talk to Panasonic Japan. Yes of course, he wants those who can't afford the dvx to buy the GS400. From all Japanese sites I have read, including the first reviews, the common thing emphasized is the Crystal Engine (technology).

Panasonic Japan is very clear that the GS400 does not have Progressive Scan CCD, but now, I am not sure at all if such type of CCD is required in order to be "true progressive scan capable."

They said they would get back to me on the resolution under Procinema/Frame Mode and I am still waiting for that :-(

Yesterday, I took 2 minutes of sample videos inside the store using the GS400, approximately 10 seconds each under all 6 settings. (Normal Interlaced, Wide Interlaced, Procinema, Normal Frame Mode, Wide Frame Mode, and Procinema again). If anybody here has the knowledge and equipment to analyze the footages to find out whether Procinema or Frame mode is progressive scan or whatever, I am willing to send him or her the tape. I can't do it :-))

BTW, whether it is actually progressive scan or frame mode, and regardless of the still capability (I have NOT used my black mamba to take any stills), I think this high-end (consumer) cam is a nice buy...d_mn I paid more than 1.5 times for my Optura100.

Yes Guy, I admit the Procinema sample looks great compared to widescreen interlaced mode. I cannot make any conclusion but my best guess/opinion is, Frame Mode PLUS Crystal Engine :-))

Ok, Allan, we have it. Frame mode not 30P. But, it still looks great!

the issue for me is in the nle when editing. In vegas (and other nles') that can properly handle 24p, you get a full 720x480 picture to work with. With frame mode you get the same limitations of trying to convert interlaced to progressive for uprezing or changing to different formats. If frame mode, I'll just keep my mx500 and keep saving for another camera. Still nice to read all the posts about it. I'm sure Panasonic appreciates all the free publicity.

If frame mode, I'll just keep my mx500 and keep saving for another camera.

A few years back and you had a lot of progressive scan options in the consumer/prosumer segment but these days its slim pickings.

Maybe a DVX100A for you?

the issue for me is in the nle when editing. In vegas (and other nles') that can properly handle 24p, you get a full 720x480 picture to work with. With frame mode you get the same limitations of trying to convert interlaced to progressive for uprezing or changing to different formats. Joe, in either 24P or 30P (and frame mode is 30P because the two fields are created at the same time--no interfield motion blur) you still get two fields from the cam to make a frame. The frame is 720x480 regardless of true progressive or frame mode. When you bring the video to the timeline and set project properties, there is no deinterlacing necessary because the two fields are already deinterlaced in the camera. So, there is no degradation of the image like that which occurs when deinterlacing 60i.

Guy Bruner said:

-------no deinterlacing necesssary-----
----------------------------------------

Guy, did you use the right word, when you said "no deinterlacing"? Are you forgetting that the camcorder records and outputs the signal as interlaced?

Steve McDonald

Are you forgetting that the camcorder records and outputs the signal as interlaced?

Yes, but I think Guy is saying that you would not want to de-interlace footage in post that was recorded with frame mode in-camera.

What Guy said was that the camera has already deinterlaced it, when actually it has been interlaced by the camera before recording and output.

Steve McDonald