<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore : The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything -->>>

The quote psuedo came from psuedo-HDV. Chris is saying that the
camera is NOT following the HDV **STANDARD**. For the rest it
is all HDV (just a term). It is simply not using the HDV standard
since that came out AFTER the camera. No "shame" in that!

Personally I don't want MPEG2 for HD (which is what HDV is). So
I'm really hoping that if they went some sort of HD route they
resolved it differently. I'm hoping Canon's presense in the HDV
world is for their lower range of products whenever they move
into HD.... then again I'm probably betting on the wrong thing.

hello,
still two days and the reduction in price on the ends

what we will see ?

nothing
xl2
hl1

Francesco

XL1t ?
XL1s2 ?

:)

hdv-hl1s16/9/1080/24/p/@/...


0 ,0
\___/

You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires? Is that what history teaches us?

"You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires?"

Come on Chris, this is the XL2 WISH list, isn't it?
:)


"Is that what history teaches us?"

Good point.
Do you care to jog our memories?
How long was it between the time that the XL1 rebate expired and the XL1s was announced? Does anyone remember?

I think a few weeks is to be expected.
Conveniently, Canon is one of the main sponsors at DV Expo East which starts two weeks after the rebate expires.
Seems like the perfect opportunity to show off a new camera.


-Luis

The announcement was made a few weeks ago, but it's been in lock down at an undisclosed location, It will to be made known to the general public just prior to the election. Don't you guys know anything?

Barry

"You guys are convinced there'll be a major announcement immediately after the rebate expires?"

Do you know something that we don't know?


;-) HeHEheheHE ;-)

Ok Canon, this is July 1st. Where is it???

As I wrote in the other thread:

======================
As explained time and time again NOTHING IS SURE until
Canon decides to announce something. It is as easy as that.
Everything else is complete speculation or just bogus and you
should treat it as such.

Yes, the rebate expiring is a good indication. BUT, as has been
said time and time again in this thread the announcement for
the XL1S happened *mid* July, two weeks after the rebate
expired.

So if (and that IS a big if!) something would happen shortly your
best bet is in two weeks give or take a week.

Now please don't take my word as fact (because it isn't, I know
as much as the rest does) and for all I know there could be no
replacement at all or if there is one it might be announced in
time for Christmas.

WHO KNOWS.

Don't get hung up by any dates. Yes, a film studio will announce
the exact date of a movie months and months in advance. Canon
doesn't with its camera's so stop expecting an announcement
when people are just speculating about it!
======================

So let's just wait till they announce something. Okay?

<<<Now please don't take my word as fact (because it isn't, I know
as much as the rest does) and for all I know there could be no
replacement at all or if there is one it might be announced in
time for Christmas. WHO KNOWS.>>>>

I'll bet Chris Hurd knows, he just can't say ;(

What I do know is that Canon has a real 35mm CMOS chip in the EOS-1Ds:
___________
(From B&H website)
11.1 million pixels.
A full-frame CMOS sensor.
This is what professionals have been asking for.
The EOS-1Ds advantage starts at the imaging sensor.
And what a tremendous breakthrough it is. A full-frame CMOS sensor manufactured by Canon with an imaging area of 24 x 36mm, the same dimensions used by full-frame 35mm SLRs. It has 11.1 million effective pixels with a maximum resolution of 4,064 x 2,704 pixels. This is almost double the resolution currently considered state-of-the-art by most professionals.
_____________
I am hoping that the next generation is
REVOLUTIONARY and not just a yawn (HDV). I'll go deep in debt to
buy something like this.

The 1Ds takes 3 pictures a second. It's a little slow for video use. I think were still a few years off before we see anything like that chip in a prosumer camera

That's correct Jeff, but I guess what I am saying is that
it is *possible* that 3fps is a camera memory/pipeline limitation and not a
chip output limitation. Even with a huge flash memory card,
11 megapixel output would fill it in a few of seconds of 24 fps.

It's probably only my hope, but if Canon's CMOS
chip can output 30 fps or 24, THEN it is also possible to pipe and transcode
that info into an HD SDI stream.
I believe this is being done now (or soon) with cameras like
Kinetta and Dalsa so it is possible. Kinetta uses something like
8 or 10 laptop drives RAIDed together for on board storage of upto
40 mintues of uncompressed 4:4:4 at some high bit depth.

I have to believe that Canon has the resources to bring the price point
WAY down from a company like Kinetta which is two guys; only one
of whom is a digital camera engineer. The Kinetta is supposed to
cost like $60K without lens.

Bob Safay: << Ok Canon, this is July 1st. Where is it??? >>

And as I wrote, in another thread in our Area 51:

My friend, you haven't been reading my posts, or you would have known better than to expect something from Canon today.

Once again: you have to study Canon's history, because by studying history you can predict the future. And Canon's history clearly states that in the past they have *never* announced a major new product the very next day after a former one expires.

Canon's history also clearly states that for a flagship product of the XL1 caliber, announcements are always made at major industry events such as, say, a trade show. Was there a major industry event yesterday or today? No? What major industry event is about to happen, then? I wonder if Canon will make an announcement at that show.

Now I'm legally bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement, so even if I did know anything specific, I couldn't tell you. But it's no secret that Canon tends to operate by a very predictable pattern, and if you look at their past as we've been discussing here, it helps you to see that the future is quite clear. You can put two and two together. Hope this helps,

Thanks

Dv expo 14-16 july 2004

Platinum sponsors:
Adobe
Canon
Sony




Francesco

See? I told you Chis knows . . . but the Q is how much he knows?!

Can you tell us Mr. Hurd if we'll ( and me personally) will be . . . let us say . . .
happy?

Anyone in NY going to DV Expo? You *might* see something ;)

>>>>>>>>t's probably only my hope, but if Canon's CMOS
chip can output 30 fps or 24, THEN it is also possible to pipe and transcode
that info into an HD SDI stream.
I believe this is being done now (or soon) with cameras like
Kinetta and Dalsa so it is possible. Kinetta uses something like
8 or 10 laptop drives RAIDed together for on board storage of upto
40 mintues of uncompressed 4:4:4 at some high bit depth.

I have to believe that Canon has the resources to bring the price point
WAY down from a company like Kinetta which is two guys; only one
of whom is a digital camera engineer. The Kinetta is supposed to
cost like $60K without lens.


Jacques,

The camera features that you mention (Full Frame sensor, 24P/ 30P, High Def SDI, 4:4:4 bit depth, HDD recording) will certainly require a lens with much greater resolving power costing much more than many here are willing to pay just for the camera body alone.

If you have a need for such high end output, are you shooting on such a camera now? Why not?

Exactly how much are you prepared to pay today for a camera with the features that you mention? $3K? $6K? $12K? $25K? $40K? It would be very useful if all who are contributing to this post could answer this question accurately and realistically.


>>>>>>>>Can you tell us Mr. Hurd if we'll ( and me personally) will be . . . let us say . . .
happy?


What exactly are you shooting on now? What type of editing system are you using? Is it set up right now to handle multiple HD streams (I mean real HD, not that severely compressed 'HDV' signal) Do you have the capability to capture, edit, color correct and output High Def? Do you have a huge (Terrabyte minimum) HDD RAID setup that can handle the high throughput required by High Def? Do you have a 14" or 20" digital multi-format monitor with an SDI i/o card that is capable of resolving High Def video? Do you know what these things cost?


- don

Jacques,

<< Can you tell us Mr. Hurd if we'll ( and me personally) will be... let us say... happy? >>

DV Expo will make all of us happy, because it's a great event which affords us the opportunity to see each other face to face which as you know is all too rare for online community members. And I certainly look forward to seeing you there again!

<<<The camera features that you mention (Full Frame sensor, 24P/ 30P, High Def SDI, 4:4:4 bit depth, HDD recording) will certainly require a lens with much greater resolving power costing much more than many here are willing to pay just for the camera body alone.>>>


For the very, very best, yes you are correct Don. However, if JVCs hdv cam
with a cheap (plastic?) lens can create 'good enough' HD(V), then certainly
a $1500 Canon 35mm lens can do a much better job and should be
able to do good 'nuff real 720P (as was the case with the VX1K and SD video).
The still images captured by my Canon 10D are more than acceptable
if they were captured at 24 or 30 fps.

<<<If you have a need for such high end output, are you shooting on such a camera now? Why not?>>>

Money. That said, my trusty but rusty XL1 is shot and needs replacement.
I've been looking at used 16mm Arri SR II and III rigs.

<<<Exactly how much are you prepared to pay today for a camera with the features that you mention? $3K? $6K? $12K? $25K? $40K?>>>

I would like to spend $10K, but could go to $25K (used 16mm Arri kit) if the
results are acceptable to me.

<<<What exactly are you shooting on now?>>>

XL1, EOS and EF 100-400 / 16-35 lens.

<<<What type of editing system are you using?>>>

Avid Xpress and FCP HD. One on an old 9600 the other on a 2g/2g G5.

<<<Is it set up right now to handle multiple HD streams (I mean real HD, not that severely compressed 'HDV' signal) >>>

Don't get me wrong. I think compression is going to be a fact of life,
especially considering just how bad our local cable TV signal has degraded
with the change to "wonderful all digital" signals at like 1-4mbps. But that
said, RAIDs are available and working for under $10K now. DVCPro 100
is only 4X the bandwidth of DV, so even a couple of Firewire 800s should
be able to do the cross dissolves. I don't do much multi layered stuff.

<<<Do you have the capability to capture, edit, color correct and output High Def? Do you have a huge (Terrabyte minimum) HDD RAID setup that can handle the high throughput required by High Def?>>>

The new AJA HD Kona card can do it and storage continues to drop in price
while increasing in bandwidth (speaking of HUGE (systems)). This at a price
point of less than 1/2 of my Avid Xpress AVBD.

But, as I say, there is most likely going to be compression (but HDV . . . NO!).
DVCPro 100 is certainly better looking than DV imo.
I was very impressed with the varicam, so a system selling at 1/10th of that
$100K price point that looks almost as good would be hot imo,
while not requiring _super expensive_ gear. You simply take your storage
to an online house and have the final edit bounced to whatever tape format
required by PBS for broadcast. You don't have to have the $27K panasonic
deck to go with.

If the camera has HD SDI out, the option exists to bring along
your HD computer system or rent an HD deck for (near) uncompressed.

Jacques

Maybe I can just finagle really good deals but when iw as shopping for varicam my price point was closer to 60K for a body. Perhaps you're adding 40K worth of lenses as well to that figure? OR where you thinking of the F900 which is much closer to the 100K mark (though still a bit cheaper I believe)

I also I think that the problem people have with the JVC cam is that it's not in fact "good enough" it's pretty poor in comparison to "real" HD.

To be honest though if Canon could do something on a smaller scale to the Varicam I would be willing to pay at least 20K (Somehow) for it as it would literally pay for itself in a matter of months. But I'm not going to get my hopes up. I think maybe it'll be something like a DVX100 with 16:9 chips and interchangable lenses. But man, wouldn't HD be cool!

<<<-- Originally posted by Nick Hiltgen:

Maybe I can just finagle really good deals but when iw as shopping for varicam my price point was closer to 60K for a body. Perhaps you're adding 40K worth of lenses as well to that figure?>>>

Right, the $100K would be a varicam and a good lens. The thing is though,
a camera body and a single lens is not a kit. The camera controller I believe is another $6K, the viewfinder, maybe an outboard monitor
(the 8" I saw cost over $25K), batteries, charger,
cases, tripod, lens extender, etc. It all adds up FAST! The budget could
easily be $150K for a well equipped HD varicam kit and NLE.

<<<I also I think that the problem people have with the JVC cam is that it's not in fact "good enough" it's pretty poor in comparison to "real" HD. >>>

Yup. HDV is really poor looking when compared side by side to real HD,
but when the broadcast delivery spec of HD is 19mbps the argument
can be made that the JVC exceeds that bandwidth during capture.
The other thing to consider is price point. Those peddling in HDV will
be able to deliver HD production for CHEAP. As we know, the market
is all about price right now and quality has taken a back seat in "the race
to the bottom".

Talking heads content will do okay with HDV, but when you are shooting nature documentaries, HDV is gonna suck. Point an HDV camera at a bird surrounded
by blowing leaves and you can forget about HDV. The picture will be a wonderful
mosaic of macroblocks. Hardly National Geographic quality.

<<<To be honest though if Canon could do something on a smaller scale to the Varicam I would be willing to pay at least 20K (Somehow) for it as it would literally pay for itself in a matter of months. But I'm not going to get my hopes up. I think maybe it'll be something like a DVX100 with 16:9 chips and interchangable lenses. But man, wouldn't HD be cool! -->>>

When at NAB, I saw JVC demo the forthcoming shoulder style professional
HDV camcorders. Their price point is going to be around $20K! For that kind
of money, I would rather buy a used 16mm Arri, or if I were to go video,
a Panasonic SDX900 and have the final product uprezzed to HD using
a box like the Terenex Volare. The results are pretty impressive.
The DVX100 is a solid and affordable alternative, so to compete, the XL2
has to be better.

I have a Canon 10D still camera. If Canon can make a video camera
that can capture the 10D's images at a rate of between 24fps and 30 fps
then it will quickly make a large impact on the market. This is possible because
small companies with limited resources are doing it now. I have to
believe that Canon has the capability too. The only issue is what capture
format. MiniDV is a no go unless (like DVCAM) a 60 minute tape records for
10-15 minutes(4X). Maybe blue laser DVD has the bandwidth and storage
capabilities required.

>>>>>>>>I have a Canon 10D still camera. If Canon can make a video camera that can capture the 10D's images at a rate of between 24fps and 30 fps then it will quickly make a large impact on the market.

This will never happen. At least not anytime soon (and, at least several years...). It would make *too large* of an impact on the market and quite simply, it would upset the majority of camera manufacturers who buy lenses from Canon to incorporate them into their cameras. http://www.usa.canon.com/html/industrial_bctv Canon has a rather extraordinary commitment in manufacturing high end broadcast lenses for high end camera manufacturers. Canon is not about to go and step on the toes of their valuable business customers who purchase their lenses.

>>>>>>>>This is possible because small companies with limited resources are doing it now.

They are? Name one that is not still in the wee concept/ development stages, or is currently distributing their product 'with' adequate technical support. Name one that offers a camera that falls into a $10K price point. Name one that isn't at least $60K. Iv'e met Jeff Kreines, he is a superb artisan and yes, he is a genius. It was a treat to look through the viewfinder and handle his Kinetta concept cam. It is not shipping though, nor is it in the price range of $10K. Don't forget to factor in the cost of an appropriate lens.

Certainly, I too would love to purchase a $10K HD cam with ... It just doesn't exist. So, that is why I love my friends at Boston Camera Rental http://bostoncamera.com

Best regards,

- don

You just have to be right don't you Mr. Berube! ;)

A nice, strong, heaping tablespoon of reality medicine (bleech).
BUT, until the new XL2comes out there's always hope
(yeah, . . . sure thing . . . loser ;)

Have a good Indepence Day weekend all!

Jacques, you and Don and I will just have to get together over a pitcher of beer in New York in a couple of weeks. See you there,

Can I come...?

Barry

Jacques, will you be attending the DV Expo East? Let us know ok? Would be fun to have Chris buy us all a couple rounds of ale,,, errrrrrrrrrrrr,,, I mean, it would be cool if we each bought each other a round of ale!

Barry, of course your'e invited!

Hey, now that I think of it, what about Boyd?

Boyd??? You comin'??? C'mon!

Anyone else? Let us know! :o)

- don

I actually hadn't planned on attending . . . not that I wouldn't love to
get back to Manhatten and see you guys and see one new camera :)

Right now though, all funds
are being allocated to promote our nearly finished documentary,
"An Osprey Homecoming," which is about an osprey reintroduction program
here in Michigan.

The film centers around one of the hacked (raised) birds who returned
with a mate and had the first wild reared osprey chick to hatch in
southern Michigan in over 60 years.

http://www.ospreylovers.com

But you never know, the pull of NY and good times makes it very tempting.

Geeeeeeeeeeeez Jacques, who said anything about a new camera??? Certainly not me. ::rolls eyes upward::

Your Osprey doco sounds very interesting. What did you shoot it on? What are you posting on?

Didn't realize that you were a bird lover. I'm a bird lover here as well! In fact, it's too bad you don't think you'll be able to join us at the DV Expo East,,, we'll definitely be hitting the Peking Duck grill in China Town. Always a good time there.

I just hope we have some good summer weather that week,,, right now it is raining cats & dogs here in Davis Square. Was hoping to be outside today. Took today off to go bike riding... Oh well.

Looking forward,

- don

During the 1980's I was an avid backpacker and hiker as well as a wildlife photo enthusiast. Sometime during the week before a long weekend trek (to Michigan, I believe) I watched a documentary on ospreys and was quite impressed.

The following week my wife an I were hiking, she was trailing me by perhaps 20 yards. I reached the top of a hill overlooking the lake and saw something "huge" flying towards me. I froze. It landed perhaps 10 yards from me; it sure appeared to be an osprey! It sat on a branch for what seemed like 5 minutes (probably more like 20 secs.) and just pondered the silly looking biped with two idle camera bodies around his neck. It finally tired of me and took off with whooshing wing sweeps.

My wife appeared and, seeing my slack jaw expression, asked what was up. I told her...but she just laughed incredulously. "Did you get any pictures with those things?", she asked as she pointed to the cameras dangling from my neck. I don't think I ever forgave her for that remark. <g>

<<<-- Originally posted by Don Berube : Boyd??? You comin'??? C'mon! -->>>

Well I'll think about it.... actually have the brochure sitting right here next to my computer. Unfortunately, that's one of the few weeks when I have a few other things going on around here. Actually, I'm planning a party on the 15th and you guys are welcome if you have the time to venture down into the Jersey Pine Barrens (and can handle the company of some Opera "techies" ;-)

<<<Your Osprey doco sounds very interesting. What did you shoot it on?>>>

XL1 with EOS adapter and 100-400 EV lens for much of it and VX2K
for close ups.

<<<What are you posting on?>>>

We take the 1394 output of our DSR40 deck and run that into a MADRAS
transcoder which turns the signal into SDI and then sample it into the avid
at 2:1 (AVR77). From there we'll make Digital Betacam, Beta SP and DVCAM
dubs.

<<<Didn't realize that you were a bird lover. I'm a bird lover here as well! In fact, it's too bad you don't think you'll be able to join us at the DV Expo East,,, we'll definitely be hitting the Peking Duck grill in China Town.>>>

Yes, I do love birds. They are just amazing to me. Can you imagine flying
1000 miles, diving into ice cold sea water, catching a fish and then
jumping up on an ice flow in -20F and eating your sushi like your
camped out on the beach? Truly unbelievable!

Crispy Peking duck with those thin crepes and hoisen sauce is still on my menu however. Double YUM!

Somebody said Peking duck? Mmmmm...

28 Mott St. in downtown Manhattan!

Chris Hurd wrote:
Somebody said Peking duck? Mmmmm...

28 Mott St. in downtown Manhattan!


Don't forget to add a beer to that menu Chris. ;-)

>hint<

- don

finally wishing time is over:

http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/pressrelease/20040713_xl2.html

Yes it is. For more information see our new XL2 forum and
the announcement and specs (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28853).

Any new discussion regarding the XL2 should be take there. Thanks!