If I where to build a harddisk system in a camera I would build it
easy removable. Because it might be feasible to purchase a
harddisk for a client and give that to them. Or you might want to
shoot certain things on a certain harddisk. Or you might want to
swap harddisks.

Better yet, with such a system you could mount it directly into
your NLE system (without the need for the camera to be there,
and so someone else might shoot something else on another disk).
In a multi person company you could even have a dedicated
harddisk for each person which also contains his or hers presets
and other shooting preferences.

Now that WOULD be neat. We'll have to wait and see I guess...

I totally agree... oh I can't wait for these days to come...

Audio 1 needs separate level control for the 2 Channels. Existing system is impossible to juggle unless you use 2 identical Mics. With Radio mic & a shotgun mic the levels are different & of course levels change dramatically if lapel mic is 30 feet from the shotgun. I gave up & now use a 2nd XL1 to record 2nd line of Audio. Much easier & I end up with 2 completely useable Audio tracks. Nothing 1 extra control dial would'nt fix.
Underscan flipout LCD could be useful, but really the B/W viewfinder is brilliant.
Hard disc recording & HDV would be great.
Have been watching existing footage on a High Definition TV & must say the old XL1s does do a great job.
Like the guy @ cahnnel 9 here said to me one day, "Why do they bugger round with those huge Betacam cameras. This quality is more than good enough for Broadcast".
I gave them up years ago.
Besides TV systems in 99.9% of households can't even reproduce VHS quality.
How many people do you know with a wide screen, Hi Def digital Telly.
Well done Canon. I will never go anywhere else. PC in OZ

I'd like the camera to tell me the color temperature it settles on when it white balances! Also, a photo button override/disable option to avoid those accidental bumps.

Well, as long as we're talking about color temperature... I'll go you one further.

One thing I've always wanted to be able to do is manually control my white balance - (yes I know how to white balance a camera) - What I mean by that is, not only have the camera give you the color temp that it chose, but allow you to then dial it up or down from there. There are few things I find more frustrating than having to rewhitebalance 4 or 5 times to get the temp that I'm looking for.

I know this is possible in higher end cams (as is the option to see your color temp). It would be great to see this at a 'prosumer' level.

(then again, if we got everything we wanted, i guess it would no longer be a 'prosumer' level cam, and would cost about 20K)

-Luis

Hear hear! Luis, I forgot about that one! I wish the XL-next and my DVC-Pro camera had a manual color temperature dial. At least a "plus .2 and minus .2" switch like AE shift has.

of course, the XL2 will have an inbuilt hard drive. Why wouldn't it? Canon will really want to rock the cradle surely.

Canon, please add an audible beep once for Record & twice for Pause like some Sony cameras run. I often miss the buttom & record the floor cos I always watch focus & framing but not the tally light up the top right hand corner. I like that Sony warning system.

<<<-- Originally posted by Pete Constable : Canon, please add an audible beep once for Record & twice for Pause like some Sony cameras run. I often miss the buttom & record the floor cos I always watch focus & framing but not the tally light up the top right hand corner. I like that Sony warning system. -->>>

Sure, as long as there is a button to disable it!

>>>Canon, please add an audible beep once for Record & twice for Pause like some Sony cameras run. I often miss the buttom & record the floor....<<<

ROTFL, I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's not an issue unless I'm having to start/pause recording a LOT, but it invariably happens when I'm shooting for sports highlights (especially frustrating when recording the floor/ground and then hitting pause thinking you're hitting record...and then a homerun, touchdown, or 3 pointer occurs....arrrrgh, man do I feel like an idiot!). However, I also agree with Dylan in that, you'd have to be able to disable it in certain scenarios.
Randy

Hard disk recording would be sweet. Slap in the IDE drive of your choice, I'd be in heaven. Heck, even direct firewire to HD recording would be nice. I'm so sick of using DV tapes.

But seriously folks, Canon's really doing us a disservice by leaving us in limbo for so long. We haven't had a decent new video camera for them in almost two years. The XL1S is practically ancient. And we don't even hear a peep out of them. This thing had better blow us away, or else I will be seriously disappointed in Canon.

I'm with Peter...it is a shame Canon won't even give us a possible release date....I hate to say it, but in spite of what I have invested in my 3 XL1s, I may dump them and move to the pany DX100a(s) soon....

Not sure if anyone added this to the list yet, but hey...since we're dreaming... how about an SDI out that grabs the signal prior to the DV compression?

Even better, an HDV/DV model with an HD-SDI out.

That way you could record HDV to tape, 10bit Uncompressed HD out HD-SDI, DV to tape, or Uncompressed 10bit SD out SDI.

Hey, like I said, we're dreaming right?


Speaking of dreaming, if Canon dares to renew this XL1s rebate one more time this will become a nightmare.

My guess - rebate ends June 30th, and we hear something at DV Expo East in mid July.

(then again, I said the same thing about NAB. Hey, I'll be right eventually)

-Luis

Well I haven't pitched anything into this eternal thread for over a year. So here are a few ideas.

1. Maintain the modular architecture of the XL system. It's an excellent architecture that's yet to be exploited fully.

2. 16:9 native CCD's would be nice, particularly if accompanied by optional 16:9 high-res monochrome CRT viewfinder and good-res 16:9 color viewfinder.

3. Switchable frame rates of 30 and 24 with true progressive imaging would be just ducky.

4. Those P+S Technik folks have made enough cash off of the XL1 system. Time for Canon to flick them off the table. Introduce a Mini-15-like adapter for the "XL2". Or make P+S an offer they can't refuse. This would provide a segue to...

5. Introduction of a set of reasonably affordable prime lenses for the "XL2", well-matched for the camera's resolution. Lenses are Canon's strength and few can match their design and production techniques in this segment. This, coupled with #4, would seem to be a very good strategic move for Canon. Good synergy with their other professional lines without alienating their big broadcast customers.

In the end, the "XL2" system should become truly expandable within the Canon line, from the basic $4,000 setup up to a fully-equipped filmmaking rig weighing in at perhaps 10x that figure.

Such a big splash would instantly demote the DVX100A to a weenie-cam. (Not that I'd cheer this, since I also own one!)

Howdy from Texas,

...it is a shame Canon won't even give us a possible release date

Ah, but perhaps they have given you a possible release date. All you need to do is study your history.

Quick everyone search!

A reference that might (http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/index.html), or might not, be handy for searchers.

Either way it's an interesting place to browse.

Ken said >>" 16:9 native CCD's would be nice, particularly if accompanied by optional 16:9 high-res.... "<<

So does native mean that it wouldn't compress (squash) the image if played on a 4:3 screen (as stated will happen in the manual if shot in "16:9") ? Is there an anamorphic lens out there that does this well with the XL1S now?
Thanks for listening,
Randy

I think the native in that sentence was meant to indicate the
"XL2" should support 16:9 out of the box without any extra
equipment or quality cuts.

Yes. It would be nice if the "XL2" shot 16:9 without any squishing or manipulation such as cameras like Sony's DSR-570 or Panasonic's SDX900. It should also be able to produce 4:3 by only sampling the center portion of the CCD, just as those cameras do.

Ken, with "a reference that might", can you be more specific. My computer is very slow. Cheers PC

The link points to the Canon Camera Museum site. The XL1S was introduced July, 2001.

and the discount on the XL1 ends June 30th. Hmmmm.

Probably next year at NAB ;)

We have just had a price reduction here in Australia of $A1000 so it could be close, as the XL1s was 3 years after XL1 & another 3 years is up, right? Ah, we're just a bunch of kids really but at least we act young. PC

So, contrary to the popular axiom so often touted here, is someone who *knows* *saying*? :)

By the way for what it's worth, I think native 16x9 and 24p are great and necessary features. But if it's not HD, I won't be upgrading from the GL2 for that. I'll wait to see what Sony comes up with in the HDV realm.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau :
Probably next year at NAB ;) -->>>

Thats almost a full year away! I hope it's not that long...

A$1000 drop on the xl1s? Hmm, might be time to sell my XM2 and upgrade to the XL1s, over the DVX100a which I'm currently planning. The look of the Canon is sweet and to be honest, quite a factor for me as I shoot news style stuff and would like a camera that looked more "pro' without shelling out 10K or more!

Aaron

Peter

I'll wait to see what Sony comes up with in the HDV realm.

That's an understandable position to take, but you might be in for a bit of a wait there. Based on the news from NAB, it looks like it's going to be very late this year, or most likely sometime next year, before any manufacturer is ready to ship a significant HDV camcorder.

"it looks like it's going to be very late this year, or most likely sometime next year, before any manufacturer is ready to ship a significant HDV camcorder."

So Chris, are you saying that the XL2 will not be a 'significant HDV camcorder'?

:)

-Luis

IMO, He is saying that the XL2 will not be HDV at all! :-)

All I'm saying is that according to what I learned from walking around the NAB 2004 show floor, and visiting Panasonic, Sony and JVC, all of whom were showing HDV "prototypes" but stating nothing would be ready until fourth-quarter 2004 at the very earliest, is that nobody should expect to see a major HDV offering until then. Canon as usual is tight-lipped about the whole thing, but again, look at your history.

History is important. You can learn a lot from history. History tells you where you are going and when future things are most likely to happen. Look at the history of DV. Sony came out with the VX1000 in early 1995. When did Canon introduce a DV camcorder? Not until November 1997. I believe it's important to study history, but then again, I'm a geek. So there.

Sounds like the XL2 won't be HDV, based on where the market is now. Since HDV is so close, though, I think it's at least worth waiting for for other cameras. I just wish I knew *what* I was waiting for. That's why I very much dislike the secrecy. From a marketing standpoint I think it causes me, at least, to say, "the hell with them, I'll set my sights on something that's definitely coming rather than hope for some upgrade I know really nothing about."

Hi Peter, you wrote:

<<<Sounds like the XL2 won't be HDV, based on where the market is now.>>>

If the XL2 comes out equipped (as I personally hope it will) with HD SDI
output and uses Canon 35mm glass,
I for one will be SUPER happy that it is NOT HDV native. HDV
looks good as long as you're doing talking heads, but when it comes
to action shots, nature/wildlife, color correction, etc. HDV is at best a
delivery format IMHO. HDV is MUCH more consumer than DV.

HD 292M is the real deal. Uncompressed 601
NTSC SDI output would work for me too, but real HD is what I've
seen and what I want. Remember, you can always compress the hell
out of HD and get HDV as the result, but you cannot go the other way.

From the camera, a single BNC jack w/
HD SDI output could go directly into a computer at super high quality.
Once in the computer, the video can be turned into just about anything
because you have gobs of resolution to play with. HDV will have macro blocks
like queen sized bed sheets.

When necessary, you can still take your storage over to a post house that has
expensive decks for real tape (D5/HDCAM/DVCPro100) recording.

<<<Since HDV is so close, though, I think it's at least worth waiting for for other cameras. >>>

It's always best to wait, because there is always something better planned.
But, I would suggest going to the alternate image area here and see what
is going on with a couple of the community members. I personally would
rather work with uncompressed 4:4:4 12bit NTSC (1gigbps?) and blow that up to HD using a box like Terenex's Volare than 25 megbps HDV.

<<<I just wish I knew *what* I was waiting for. That's why I very much dislike the secrecy. From a marketing standpoint I think it causes me, at least, to say, "the hell with them, I'll set my sights on something that's definitely coming rather than hope for some upgrade I know really nothing about.">>>

Exactly. Even if something super new/cool comes out, it is still best to wait
and see that is for real and not hype. Buy the 2nd round ala DVX100a.

The new JVC 'pro' shoulder cam
is still going to have a price of $20K according to JVC. Is that the kind
of money YOU want to spend for marginal
'fools most of them, but not the pros' quality?

Not me, I hope Canon has it's sites set WAY up there.

I agree, looking at history will show a company's patterns, and will show us where they might be headed.

Granted, we don't have much in the way of 'dv history' to go by, since the XL1 has only been in the game since 1997 as Chris pointed out. But, since we're speculating, I thought it would be interesting to point out that Canon doesn't seem to have a history of doing small upgrades on cameras more than once.

In 1991 the L1 camera was introduced.
The L1 camera was upgraded to the L2 some years later (I can't find the date).

Then it was transformed by a major change into the XL1 DV camera in 1997.

The XL1 was upgraded to the XL1-S in 2001.

If we go by this pattern, it seems that the next incarnation of the XL1s will be a major transformation of the camera as we now know it. I'm not saying that means it will be an HDV camera, but I do believe that it will be a marked difference from the XL1-s.
And, in keeping with their history, the camera will probably not be called the 'XL2', but will instead have a new prefix to differentiate it from the XL line.

So, from the short history we have, it seems that Canon has a tendency to upgrade cameras after 3-4 years, and then 3-4 years later transform them into entirely different models.

Hopefully this pattern will continue, and we'll see something very soon that will knock our socks off.

(although I wouldn't hold your breath for that HD SDI out, not at under 5K. Now you're just dreaming.)
:)

-Luis

PS.
In keeping with the intent of this thread, how about we add the option of wireless recording to an external hard disk to our list?

In case you think I'm crazy, here is an article from 1999:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/10/18/canon_gets_1394_firewireless_up/

I would bet serious money Canon's next XL line will not have HD-SDI. That is going to stay in the pro realm forever just like digibeta. It's too much bits for consumers and not enough demand for the quality over HDV.

WHat happens if the XL2 moves futher consumer than pro as a prosumer camera?

What if it shows up with some highly compressed HD to fit on mini-dv tapes, no XLR inputs, a flip out LCD, and a fixed lens?

What happens?

Well, if it comes out without XLR inputs and a flip out LCD and fixed lens, then it probably won't be called the XL2. Canon would probably name it something like....oh, I don't know...the GL3?
:)

Seriously, if that happens, then it will be a big dissapointment.

Interchangable lenses have defined the XL line since the L1 cameras came out over ten years ago. There is no way that Canon would lose that functionality now. It is the one thing that has set them apart at that price level. If they release a camera without interchangable lenses (like the GL1, GL2) then it would not be considered part of the XL line.

-Luis

<<<-- Originally posted by John Threat : WHat happens if the XL2 moves futher consumer than pro as a prosumer camera?

What if it shows up with some highly compressed HD to fit on mini-dv tapes, no XLR inputs, a flip out LCD, and a fixed lens? -->>>

Simple. I'll get a DVX100a instead ;)

Aaron

FWIW, a poster in a Canon forum elsewhere on the web claims to have spoken with someone in the know - and that the next generation XL1 announcement should be out in July. That is consistent with the nominal 3-year life of Canon's high end camcorders over the past 13 years. A July announcement would probably indicate indicate a September availability in the US.

No information as to its specs, but an indication that the price point will be somewhat lower - probably driven by the VX2100/PD170 price points.

Don,

That matches up with what was said in the Area 51 thread as well:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27075


By the way, I went to the forum you mentioned, and it looks like the post you saw isn't there anymore. Instead I found a thread talking about why it was deleted....
hmmmmm


-Luis

Luis, the thread that Don mentions on the other board -- which was deleted by their admins -- basically was an anonymous report from somebody who insisted they had been told by someone "in the know" that an XL1S replacement was definitely going to happen in July.

This guy's "proof" revolved around the XL1S rebate expiration date. Well for crying out loud, we've been discussing how rebate expiration dates can often signal new products, and we've been mentioning that for years around here.

It's as if that anonymous poster had a stunning revelation, which he would have realized is common knowledge if he had only been a regular reader here. Guessing new product arrival dates ain't rocket science. If you study history, then you can predict the future... a fairly simple and straightforward process.

yeah... its funny though how this exact prediction for the XL2 has been happening for almost a decade. Every year someone says "my dealer just told me they are getting them in next month"

Just seems like there are more concrete sources for this time around.

It's already about fourteen months late in my opinion.

heh heh.. Yeah, I agree, but you know as well as I do that there where 2 things that prolonged the release, first was the DVX, I dont think Canon had any idea how 24p would affect the market, and second last years implementation of HDV.

I think it will be quite the camera though, if it does every come out.

Except... HDV hasn't been implemented... only announced. To this day there is not a single HDV camcorder available for purchase (the JVC HD10 doesn't count, it's only pseudo-HDV). It'll be the end of this year at the earliest before anybody can actually buy an HDV camcorder. That gives an XL2 only a six-month window, but I have a feeling it'll sell well into next year no matter what does or doesn't happen with HDV.

Yeah.. the JVC kinda counts because it implemented the standard, given; its a shody implementation, but IMHO it still counts, since the actual format is used, The CCD's or body doesnt have much to do with the actual format, its kinda like the difference between the Canon $500 Elura and the XL1, they both are Mini-DV cameras.

The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything--for all its unforgivable shortcomings--single chip and all--it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market and the once-great dinosaur that is the XL-1 can only ignore it at its own peril.

<<it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market>>

Betsy, given the inherently increased resolution of the format, in what other ways do you feel the HD-1 has superior image quality?

<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore : The HD-1 isn't pseudo-anything--for all its unforgivable shortcomings--single chip and all--it is a vast leap in image quality over any other prosumer on the market and the once-great dinosaur that is the XL-1 can only ignore it at its own peril. -->>>

I think you should change that to "vast leap in resolution" as the HD-1 arguably has the worst image quality of ANY prosumer camera on the market.. but as you mentioned it is mostly due to its lower quality optics and single chipped CCD.

Heh Heh Charles looks like you snuck one in a second before me :)