OK- I know everyone's tired of these types of comparisons but I'm planning on replacing my PD100 and I was sold on the PDX10 but this rumored camera finally coming to market throws a new light on matters. Obviously the improvement I'm after is 16x9. How will the GS400 improve over the sony? Are they using the same ccd?thanks for your comments- Kurth

PDX10 vs GS400 on widescreen is still a toss up with the NTSC GS400 unreleased but my guess is that it will have the same HQ 16:9 as the PDX10 along with the PDX10s increased wide angle of view (compared to 4:3).

What its going to come down to for most is price and features. The PDX10 is presently $1850 at B&H and if the GS400 pricing follows DV953 then it should be between $1200-$1300 street at the beginning. The PDX10 of course has XLR inputs and lower shutter speeds. The GS400 is much lighter (probably better balanced as well) and offers frame mode and cine-like gamma.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : The PDX10 of course has XLR inputs and lower shutter speeds. -->>>

...and the same mike as the PD-170, a high res BW viewfinder, DVCAM recording, pro black finish. It's been on the market awhile and there's plenty of user feedback available as compared to a new camera that isn't even shipping.

I'm not putting down the GS-400; from what I read here it does sound like a nice camera. Just that the PDX-10 is a known quantity (both strengths and weaknesses), and it is the heir to the PD-100 which means it's distributed by Sony's Broadcast/Pro division. I'm guessing that the low light performance on both of these cameras will be inferior to your PD-100 however.

The GS400 also offers a frame mode with cine-like gamma in which they call Pro Cinema mode. I have this on my current GS100 and its quite impressive but the 16:9 mode on the GS100 is noticeably less resolution than my past PDX10. Lets hope the GS400 addresses this.

Here is a Pro Cinema frame from my GS100

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/ProCinema1.jpg

Here are a few 16:9 frames from my PDX10

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=441334

and a few pics of each cam.. The second photo shows how the PDX10 properly displays the 16:9 mode as letterbox in the LCD whereas the GS100 (and most likely GS400) show the anamorphically squeezed shot in the LCD. Panasonic should have payed attention!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/74415/Picture1040(Small).jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/74415/pdx10wide.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/NVGS400.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/VX2000PDX10.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-12/74415/GS100.jpg

Tommy is that a wide-angle lens inside the hood on the first shot of the PDX?

thanks Tommy - I'd seen your pdx10 framegrabs already. I guess the questions most important are those that can't yet be answered- concerning cinema gamma and frame mode- but do we know if it's just basic frame mode or , is there a possiblity that it's 30p ?I've seen contradictory info. Also , has anyone heard anything about adjustable gamma or is it like the gs100. Iknow with either I'll be limited with low light compared with my pd100a but I'm also keeping it and I've found the anamorphic pretty good and might intercut ok with the pdx10 for night shots. The DVCam aspect is a minimal gain but the 500 line viewfinder that shows true 16x9 is hard to ignore.OK , thanks for your inputs

Tommy is that a wide-angle lens inside the hood on the first shot of the PDX?

Yes, Its the cheap Sony WA (around $40-$50 USD).

Kurth, I definitely think its frame mode as the PAL GS400 manual (p. 56) says that when you activate Pro Cinema the cam record mode is set to "Frame". Frame mode is also mentioned on p. 19 and p. 54. Panasonic will often mention 30p followed by an asterik and a disclaimer that the images recorded are not progressive.

I'm not 100% sure if the cine-like gamma is adjustable on the GS400 but if it follows the GS100 then it will not.

One other thing to keep in mind -- a huge weak spot with the DV953 (I owned one for two weeks) was the small, low-res viewfinder. I found that the viewfinder made it impossible to do quality work with the camera -- and the LCD is unusable in bright daylight -- and I moved up to the AGDVC30. I'm pretty sure that the GS400 will have this same weak 113,000 pixel viewfinder.

I imagine it will also share a problem inherent in the tape transport mechanism which Panasonic used in the DV953 and I believe in all the GS models: if you are recording and then put the camera in 'pause', the transport disengages with all the attendent noise and delay that would normally be associated with turning the camera off. A real problem if you are trying to shoot in a quiet public situation (such as a concert or lecture), or if you are doing interviews. I suspect that this noise is a trade-off which Panasonic had to accept in return for the unusually quick turn-on times its consumer cameras are capable of.

Too bad, Panasonic seems to be doing a good job in all other respects, and I certainly like the size of the GS400.

Zack

Actually, Allan said in another thread that Pana has announced an improved viewfinder (123k pixels) and LCD. I don't think transport noise is an issue with the gs100k - that I've noticed, anyway - maybe I am misunderstanding what is meant by pause? - so I hope it won't be with the gs400k. I also hope Pana keeps the audio system it has built into the gs100k. It picks up no noise from the camera functions (off/on) and handles live music beautifully for a small consumer cam. (I have shot a number of jam sessions involving family/friends - miked and unmiked - a couple of weddings - with and without music - and a miked lecture. So far the only sound flaws have had to do with me learning to use the cam correctly.)

Shifting between pause and record doesn't incur any noise with the DV953. Turning the cam on and off does. The 953 also picks up no noise from the transport.

<<<-- Originally posted by Guy Bruner : Shifting between pause and record doesn't incur any noise with the DV953. Turning the cam on and off does. The 953 also picks up no noise from the transport. -->>>

How noise can be a problem when you turn the camera on and off? Noise is a problem when it can be recorded only.

Or do you mean noise in the editing point, when the camera is put on rec again over the end of another take?


Carlos

One thing I did not like on the GS100 was the same 1/8" socket was used for the external mic input and the cabled zoom control.

Is that the same on the GS400? How do you do if you want to use both?


Carlos

<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos E. Martinez : One thing I did not like on the GS100 was the same 1/8" socket was used for the external mic input and the cabled zoom control.

Is that the same on the GS400? How do you do if you want to use both?


Most probably the same socket assignment/sharing as the GS100.

Buy Pany's proprietary hot shoe mic

<<<--
Most probably the same socket assignment/sharing as the GS100.

Buy Pany's proprietary hot shoe mic -->>>


Most certainly not! Except if there's a hot shoe with no mic involved that you can use to input audio through.

We are talking serious audio quality here, not toy audio, so 99% of standard prosumer mics (included those on cameras like PD170 or DVX100) should be ditched.

That is one area where to get audio quality at the same level as the improving video quality you have to use better mics and/or external preamps. Even a Shure or AKG dynamic microphone will do a better job than those included on camera package.

You also need balanced inputs and sometimes proper phantom power.

What I am not so sure, because I never saw it personally, is how that sharing is accomplished. Is it a regular stereo 1/8" plug or what?


Carlos

Then you'd better forget about using the wired remote at the same time as one of those high quality mics you want.

I have asked Pany Japan many times about the possibility of using a splitter in order to use an external mic and the wired remote simultaneously. Each time they replied that it is not possible. Of course Pany could simply be keeping it a secret or those people I have spoken with don't really know what they're talking about. Perhaps some members of this board have actually tried that?

BTW, it is claimed to be a plug-in power mic socket.

I think at one point there was an instruction on the supervideo site about using a splitter. Someone tried it and said it didn't work - proprietary configuration of the Panasonic jack. Perhaps if Mike Cecotka is around, or checks in down the line, he can add a few words. He is using the gs100 to shoot events professionally - though at one time he was so annoyed by the difference between that wonderful lcd and his actual footage that he had the cam up for sale.

GS400 vs. PDX10...

For me is important to set exposure parameters directly: Iris, Gain and Shutter speed. As I know it is not possible in PDX10 - only not graduated "Exposure" control.

Secondly - progressive shutter. I believe progressive quality in GS400 will be same as MX500.

And last - the weight and size.

Stills quality is not important for me.

Shutter speed may be set separately on the PDX-10 with the caveat that it must be set first, then you can manually set the iris. Shutter speed is displayed in the viewfinder. Whenever you change the shutter speed the camera will automatically choose a new iris opening for you. This is odd, but I can't think of any examples where I would want to continuously vary the shutter speed as I shoot. And this is the exact same behaviour exhibited by my VX-2000.

The exposure wheel controls a combination of internal ND filters and iris, with the camera making a choice as to what it will change while keeping the iris in the "sweet spot" of the lens. Shooting in low light situations as you turn the exposure wheel further open it begins boosting gain in 3dB increments up to a max of +18dB.

This behavior is pretty much identical to the controls on my VX-2000 again, with two differences:

(1) as you turn the exposure wheel to reduce the f-stop the camera will insert ND filters after a certain point to prevent you from using too small an aperture (this feature is completely undocumented by Sony)

(2) as you point out, there is no f-stop readout in the viewfinder, just sort of a bar graph. It would be nice if Sony chose to display both the f-stop and which ND filter was in use.

It's an odd system, and even stranger that Sony doesn't explain what's happening, but it does result in some very high quality 16:9 images and I don't find it all that hard to deal with personally.

Secondly - progressive shutter. I believe progressive quality in GS400 will be same as MX500.

Mikhail, are you talking about progressive photoshot for stills or the frame mode for video?

Boyd Ostroff, it's looks like magic :-). However, it's very interesting information, thank you. In fact for me will be enough to see locked exposure parameters during filming. In case PDX10 it's possible only while playback, as I heard.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : Mikhail, are you talking about progressive photoshot for stills or the frame mode for video? -->>>
I'm talking about video, of course.
I'm not shure MX500 has "frame" mode - vertical resolution not falls during progressive filming.
I have compared three cams which can shoot progressively - Sony PC330, Canon MVX3i (in 1/25s speed) and MX500. It seems to me motion looks more natural in MX500 footage.

>>>>>Shifting between pause and record doesn't incur any noise with the DV953. Turning the cam on and off does. The 953 also picks up no noise from the transport<<<<<

Correct. But shifting from 'record' to pause with the DV953 causes several seconds of grinding and whining from the transport, just about identical to the noise made when you turn the camera 'off' after recording. I'm not talking about noise picked up by the internal microphone, I'm talking about noise which is audible to other people in the space where you are shooting -- this noise is easily audible from 10-15 feet away in a quiet environment. In a public environment such as a lecture or concert (of quiet music such as folk or chamber music) this is a real problem, as it is if you are interviewing someone and trying to pause the camera during portions of the interview that wander off topic.

I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras, nor is it issue with the AGDVC30 (which makes a slight noise when shifted into pause, but nothing really objectionable). I talked with tech support at Panasonic, and they confirmed that the noise which the camere makes when shifted from record to pause is normal, and typical of the transport used in most (possible all?) of their consumer cameras.

Zack

OK - in light of more info, can we look at this again- thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Zack Win : I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras -->>>

I can confirm that the Sony's don't have this problem. I have frequently used my VX-2000 and PDX-10 to shoot from the rear of the audience during our opera performances and never had a problem. The noise you describe on the Panasonic would clearly be a BIG problem for this sort of thing...

But the GS100 and 400 have no such problem.

I was really referring to the basic theme of the thread , and more as it concerns the wide screen function of each camera.

With matching CCDs and pixel configurations I'm sure that these two cams are going to be very similar in the widescreen department. I owned the PDX10 and the GS100 and there was still and edge in 16:9 given to the PDX10 but now with the GS400 its a level playing ground for widescreen.

If I was deciding between these two I think I would look at price and whether I valued XLRs over a Pro Cinema mode.

Another factor that doesn't get mentioned a lot is that the PDX-10 is part of Sony's "pro" line of camcorders which means it's sold and supported differently from their consumer cameras. Fortunately I have not had to test this, but I've read that tech support and service is much more responsive when it comes to the pro cameras, and that repair times are considerably faster.

Kaku has posted comparison clips between gs400 and pdx10 under a variety of questions, detailed somewhere in another thread. Go to Kaku Ito's website (check his profile) and look around.

I downloaded the mpeg2's and burned to DVD. The GS400 clearly looks sharper, higher resolution than the pdx10. You can clearly see the difference - Kaku shot an excellent test.

When you take the cursed smearing of the pdx10 into effect and the fact that you don't have the manual control ease of the gs400, the gs400 certainly wins out in my books.

So if you like XLR mics you get an adaptor like beachtek.

All the best!

Hi again Kaku. Regarding the default sharpness setting of the cams, the Sony HC1000 is noticeably softer compared to that of GS400 giving the impression of lower resolution. Is the same true for the PDX10? But then sharpness can be easily jacked-up manually to achieve similar level of clarity.

How's the smearing of GS400. It's there too right?

Thanks!

These frame grabs show the full range of sharpness adjustment on the PDX-10: http://greenmist.com/dv/pdxsharp. Personally I find the default setting (at the center of the "slider") excessively sharp. This is really a matter of personal preference I suppose, but I dislike the over-enhanced edge effect and prefer a softer image with a more pleasing tone. But that's why they give you the adjustment.

The GS-400 sounds nice though, and if it had been available a year and a half ago when I got my PDX-10 I certainly would have considered it. However I have no regrets with the PDX-10. Right now I'm in the process of editing about 25 hours of performance video and continue to be be completely satisfied with this little camera. Sure, there are things that I would like to see improved, but realistically I know that I'd have to spend much more money to get up to the next quality level. The XL-2 looks really interesting along these lines, but of course it costs $5,000...

I didn't realize there was a question for me here, Allan.

I can't really say about sharpness comparison between HC1000 and GS400.
If you compare the sharpness between GS400 and PDX10 on my comparison file (60i), PDX10 seems to have edge enhancement and GS400 does not. When you watch them on my projector with 120 inch size, the edge enhancement look really annoying, but when you watch it on say 32 inch TV monitor, there are not much difference.

The smearing of PDX10 was not acceptable to me. It really wasted my opportunities multiple times in shooting moutainbike racing in the mountain (direct sunlight coming in, somewhat dark in the woods, riders are so fast).


Maybe I should post a couple of files from my shooting from last year (PDX10) and this year (GS100). To tell you the result under the similar shooting condition, PDX10's smearing looks like thick straight line and GS100's looked acceptable.

I will have little more time to catch up with editing for you folks here (sorry, mark, I'll do the shooting in front of my house soon). I had to do XL2 stuff and my business got busy. I also have to ride my bike sometimes otherwise I would look like a poser having those nice bikes(lol). I have four days off this weekend so please wait.

hello Kaku- Are you saying the gs400 does not have the smearing problem in contrasty situations that was on the PDX10 ? and doesn't the PDX10 have sharpness adjustment like Boyd was saying so you can turn that edge enhancement down ? thanks -Kurth

Kurth, I will look through my PDX10 and let you know.

The PDX-10 lets you adjust the following things in custom preset:

Color Level
Sharpness
White Balance Shift
Auto Exposure Shift
Auto Gain Control Limit

We projected PDX-10 images on a 44 foot wide screen (that would be 51 foot diagonal!) and everyone felt it looked good (including the reviewer. :-) But I had sharpness turned all the way down. I further softened some sequences with a mist filter plug-in in FCP. We were going for sort of a dreamy effect though. I agree, the default sharpening on the PDX-10 is too much. See my link in the previous post for examples

One of the biggest factors in smear on the PDX-10 is the shutter speed. If you have the camera set on auto under bright conditions it may increase shutter speed which can greatly aggravate this problem. Sometimes it's necessary to use an external ND filter so you can shoot at 1/60 (or 1/50 PAL) in full sunlight. Keep the shutter locked at 1/60 (it should show in the viewfinder) and it can help a lot. The only time I've gotten smear is from shooting directly into the sun, and that can cause the solid stripe you're describing.

Lately, I'm looking into DCR-HC1000 to compare with GS400 and PDX10.
Since PDX10 provides slower shutter speed, but GS400 doesn't, HC1000 offers manual zoom ring (like GS400) and slower shutter speed down to 1/4 at the same time. Sony development team claims that HC1000 has more dynamic range. I'm planning of borrowing it from sony to check out how well it works.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kaku Ito : Lately, I'm looking into DCR-HC1000 to compare with GS400 and PDX10.
Since PDX10 provides slower shutter speed, but GS400 doesn't, HC1000 offers manual zoom ring (like GS400) and slower shutter speed down to 1/4 at the same time. Sony development team claims that HC1000 has more dynamic range. I'm planning of borrowing it from sony to check out how well it works. -->>>


Those comments are something I am certainly waiting for.


Carlos

Carlos,

I have not received the loaner for HC1000, but when I went to check it out at Sakuraya Camera, the zoom ring and the balance of the camera felt better than my GS400. They have the comparison between HC1000 and VX2100 on the catalog, HC1000 seems to have all of the key features of VX2100. The big difference is the 1/3 & 1/4.7 CCD, but HC1000 can do high-res 16:9. Since PDX10 does not have switchable zoom ring feature, then I purchased GS400s, but since progressive thing was not big deal to me (I shoot donwhill mountainbikes and need interlaced or 60p), HC1000 could have been better choice to me.

I will find out when I get the loaner from Sony.

Boyd - rereading this thread , I was wondering what you used to project the 40 foot image? - I also love projectors ( nec vt 540 , 3 x lightware vp800 and an old sony crt 1031q ) and that's the other half of the equation , after all. thanks - Kurth

HC1000 was not anything to be excited about. GS400 is way better camera.

Kurth, we had some serious iron... a pair of Barco SLM-R10's (10,000 lumens, 1280x1024): http://www.barco.com/Presentation/en/products/product_specs.asp?element=1283