Just got a reply from the MOVIE TUBE GUYS....looks like it will be way more expensive than the Mini35....I think I will just continure to save for the Mini35. :o(


(HERE IS THE EMAIL)
Hello Tyson Thomas,

thanks for your interest in our product MOVIEtube.
The next shipping date for MOVIEtube Pro is autumn this year. 4 MOVIEtubes Pro are already sold. Shots of MOVIEtube will be published in the web soon.
The price for the MOVIEtube Pro will be 14500.00 Euro. The price for the MOVIEtube LT about 7500.00 Euro. If you are interest to buy one please contact us via mail.
Thanks again for your interest
Best regards

Team MOVIEtube

Holy cow, 7500e just for the LT? What the heck are they thinking? Wonder what the point is of having an LT.

Yeah, I think this thing just went from "must see" to "DOA".

I agree, I was thinking they found a way to make this cheaper to sell for a way lower price, just to steal all the buyers from the Mini35. But who the heck wants to pay a higher price when the Mini35 is already superior. Also, ZGC's customer service is so incredible...they are willing to stay on the phone for as long as it takes to answer any questions about the Mini35. They also help you find used ones if the new ones are too expensive. Oh well...MOVIETUBE...what are thinking!!!!

Hmmm...that actually seems like a comparable price. Consider that the LT offers essentially the same features as the Mini35, it's a fair comparison (the Pro adds accessories and bracketry not found on either). And the price for a Mini35 setup hovers in the $9-10K USD range, just like the Movietube LT. Since no-one has apparently seen the Movietube, no judgement can be made about its performance. If it were to offer better (sharper, smoother) images or improved transmission (i.e. works in lower light), then obviously there could be a case made in its favor. As far as a cheaper version, apparently that is up to the homebuilders. It may surprise many to realize this but considering the R&D, tooling, overhead, promotional costs and above all the limited numbers of units sold, the margin on these types of items is not all that great.

Well, yeah, but...

Worldwide, ZGC has sold how many mini35's? A few hundred maybe? Yet there's tens of thousands of posts over in the homemade forum about the Agus/Aldu adapters. It's obvious that there's quite a lot of pent-up demand, but at the mini35 price point, very few customers. So MovieTube wants to come in and charge more?

At $1500 they might have sold several thousand units. At $15,000... well, I guess we'll see how it turns out. But as someone said before, ZGC is just great -- Mizell is totally the bomb. It will be tough to compete against them, especially with a comparably-to-higher-priced product.

Barry: there me tons of posts here and lots of people wanting
35mm adaptors, lenses and whatnot. I actually doubt many will
make one, buy one or actually use one.

A lot of it (no offense to anyone!) seems to be "cool to have".
Let's see:

1) How many people on this board have actually build an Agus/Aldu or similar 35mm adaptor?

2) How many people have seriously looked and bought lenses for it?

3) How many people have actually used the device to shoot a movie?

Talking about a technology is not buying or using it! I see the
same thing happening with the custom camera's we are trying
to build. Everyone wants / needs HD and a lot seem to want
1080p. I don't think a lot of people understand how much it will
actually cost in both time and money to develop such a system.

And then I would like to see how many people actually are going
to use such systems.

To get back on topic. From what I've heard shooting with the
mini35 is a much tougher job than plain DV. Due to knowledge
of lenses, smaller DOF, less light (need to add light and thus gear)
etc. etc.

So if they make an adaptor for a low price. How many will actually
sell? Perhaps quite a few in the beginning. But I suspect a lot
(50% or more?) of people will re-sell it second hand because I
doubt they understand what it takes to run such a system. The
market would probably collapse pretty soon?

Ofcourse I could be way off base here. But this is how I feel....

I think there must be a way for the big manufactures to produce a mini35 alternative as an option to their cameras. They should also be able to produce them for significantly less than 3rd party manufacturers. It's true that most people may not have a need for one, but it does solve one of the big dislikes for the dv format. If Canon or Panasonic came up with such an adapter for their cameras - I would buy into their system on that basis alone.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Barry: there me tons of posts here and lots of people wanting
35mm adaptors, lenses and whatnot. I actually doubt many will
make one, buy one or actually use one.

A lot of it (no offense to anyone!) seems to be "cool to have".
Let's see:

1) How many people on this board have actually build an Agus/Aldu or similar 35mm adaptor?

2) How many people have seriously looked and bought lenses for it?

3) How many people have actually used the device to shoot a movie?
-->>>

Rob, I agree with basically everything you say. I'd just point out that a lot of what you say would also apply to the camera itself... how many people have gone out and bought a DVX or an XL1, and then they try to save a dollar or two by using cheap tape or Home Depot worklights?

I think the "cool to have" factor is much more prevalent than a lot of people might want to admit. Not just for the adapter, but for the camera itself.

The thing that gets me is, so many people would complain about the DVX not offering autofocus in progressive mode... what are they going to say/do when they realize that when you use one of these adapters, you lose all autofocus, all auto-iris, all sorts of functions disappear. Accurate focus will be nearly impossible without a quality CRT monitor -- how many will get that, at $1200+?

Even so, I think there's a whole slew of interested "wanna-be's" (for lack of a better term), but I'm sure there's a relatively large market of pro's doing commercials, corporates, and indie films, who would all want access to a mini35 type of device, but who don't want to pay $10,000 for it. If it was a professionally-designed unit that delivered mini35-caliber results, and worked with still-camera lenses, and was priced at $1500, I know I'd buy one today, and I can think of probably five or six other guys in my field who would place the order the same day (and that's just guys I know in this relatively small market video town). I'm sure there are thousands and thousands of pro shooters across the country who would want/use one of these. I used the mini35 and I think it's a fabulous piece of equipment, and the look it delivers is phenomenal -- but I'm not going to pay $10,000 for it, and there's noplace anywhere near me who rents it. But for $1500, I'd buy it outright today, and be thrilled. At $2500, I'd probably still buy it, although I might gripe a little. But there's no way I'd pour $10,000 into it, when an SPX800 is selling at a retail of $19,800... it just doesn't make sense.

Interesting NEWS:

Today I got the MovieTube PRO in my hands! Is is a real amazing piece of workmanship.
It is one of four prototypes located in the area around Stuttgart, Germany.

I hope I can present some pictures an testshots soon.

dietmar

Dietmar:

That's exciting news! Please post information as soon as possible (I'm inches away from a Mini35 purchase...). The bottom line is, given the similarity in pricing for the Mini35 and the MovieTube LT, which one delivers a better image and or more efficient transmission (light loss)? Understood that the PRO has additional support but the same "engine"/image quality.

Dietmar,
as charles said, that is great news. I am also at the point of purchasing the Mini35. I look forward to seeing some footage from the MT. Is it true that the XL1 cannot be used with this system?

The prototype we use doesn't work with the XL-1 and doesn't work with the DVX100, too.

Today I atached a PD150, but with usual 35mm optics I had some kined of vignetting. Only with Highspeed optics this effect was less noticeable.

I'm very interesting in seeing the footage on a NLE, and take some framegrabs.

I keep you informed - but my second Impression was, that the PRO35 from PS ist much more practical.

dietmar

Dietmar,

whilst you are testing I would be interested to know the aperture range over which it gives useable results

thanks

I'll post more detailed information as soon as I have the footage and the report from the DOP.

dietmar

Very interesting NEWS:

I got a demo DVD an a flyer from Kinomatik, the manufacturer of the movietube. If anybody is interested, I will scann the flyer an post the images in this thread.

dietmar

Yes, very interested! Please go ahead.

Please do scan the flyer. I am interested to see the specs on this. I hope they have a work around the XL1/2 though...

Flyer is scanned, now need someone who is able to host the images, pleas send me a mail.

Dietmar

For the guys who are interested in the movietube:
The patent can be viewed at http://depatisnet.dpma.de
The number is DE 10240076 A1

You will found some german words about the movietube an some very detailed sketches.

Dietmar

english text info for you...

patent DE10240076 Movie tube:

Method for improving resolution of still camera and video cameras with an optic adaptor in front of the camera incorporating a back projection system with matt screen

A method for improving the resolution of still cameras, e.g. digital cameras, and video cameras has an optic adaptor (1) in front of the camera comprising a back projection system incorporating two plano convex lenses enclosing a matt screen between their plane faces. The screen provides light scattering properties and can be made of a mixture of paraffin wax and beeswax. This back projection lens has a strength of about 9 dioptres. Between the back projection lens and the camera the optic path includes a field lens (5) and a prism.

and the image...movietube (http://v3.espacenet.com/jpeg?PN=DE10240076)

try this one (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0)

Today Mr. Zulic from Kamerapool (http://www.kamerapool-ludwigsburg.de) showed me a new musicvideo photographed with the movietube an a Sony PD-150.

There is no comparision between this new clip and the clips I have seen before. This new version of groundglass seems to be perfect. No glowing with direkt light sources, no grain (!), good detail in dark and bright areas.
Now I'd like to gratulate the movietube makers - it is a competitor to the p+s technik adapters, and a real good one.

Dietmar Zonewicz

Dietmar, we're still waiting for your frame grabs to post since July - any luck?

Indeed. Still waiting for said frame grabs. Actually, I haven't been waiting, but I'd still like to see them.

post some pics of the movie tube please :)

post some footage as well!!!

can you copy the demo DVD for anyone interested?

Thanks!

Norm

jeez. with every reply I hope to hear, or pray tell "see", something.
Never quite happens.

Personally I think it doesn't exist and the whole thing is a hoax. A conspiracy.

Maybe Santa Claus will bring us some images and video for Christmas?

You might be right but I'm waiting for a dub of a musicvideo shooting to provide you some uncompressed stills as they are on the tape. The demo I've got has some mpeg problems which don't show the real quality of this adapter.

To all of you who think it is hoax - it has been on the cinec in munich, germany this summer - some guys from p+s technik where very interested in this new competitor.

And If you have direct questions just write a E-Mail to Kamerapool-Ludwigsburg or directly to kinomatik, the company which produces the movietube. They will also send you a free copy of the demo DVD.

dietmar

I will be receiving a DVD demo and flyer soon as well. They have sent it in the mail already.

I heard it was shot using the MovieTube and Sony PD150.

vaporware...

I have Never EVER seen a pic of the unit!

You could show me a crappy transfer of 35mm for all I care. The least I need is a website that goes beyond a pattent application and shows me a physical object.

sorry for a gruff response but I've been waiting for this since before I purchased a Mini35 (300 series!). That dude in south america has impressed me more.

that being said... I''m EAGERLY awaiting something... which is why I check this thread every time it gets bumped and EVERY time it's another pencil sketch and a claim of something.

I'm gonna go recount Ohio.

Hey all,

I have received the MovieTUBE flyer and demo DVD! So it is definitely not vaporware or BS.

It looks very good and certainly has the DOF of 35mm.
They used a PD150 so it still has a video-ish quality but I think coupled with a DVX or XL2 perhaps, it should look very very good.

I have asked them if I can encode some video to show people on the web and I am waiting for a response.

I think it has the exact same capability as the Mini35 except that it boasts absolutely no light loss so even slow lenses can be utilized with the device.

I'll keep you all posted.

Until then,

Norm

@ Josh, do you believe me now? It ist no vaporware, or do you think german rental houses offer vaporware to their customers?

I told you the Movietube has been on cinec (http://www.cinec.de) and I've personaly seen an tested two of this varporware pieces.

@ Norm: which video did they send you? the one with abaout 20 single scenes on the dvd or the one photographed by Marcus Stotz?

dietmar

Hi Dietmar,

They sent a DVD with a bunch of single clips and a music video clip with some girl boxing and beating up her boyfriend :)

Is that the same one?

So, what are the chances of eventually seeing price war between the movietube and mini35 folks?

@ Norm: I don't know why they send you this old one, as this isn't the good one. I think this video has too much Problems in the bright areas. The other one I've seen is much better.
A little bit OT but the second bad thing in this video is the music, I think its terrible.

@Jesse: I don't think there will be a price war, both pieces are very costly in production, just think of the expensive prisms.

dietmar

I think I was a little hyperbolic in using the term "price war." I mean, do you think both or either company might price more competetively now that there are two of a similar product on the market. Obviously production costs will force the price to remain high, but is there any room for competetive pricing ?

Dietmar, can you describe the "problems in the bright areas"? If this was due to badly shot video rather than an inherent problem with the hardware that has since been fixed, this is still valuable information, i.e. under certain circumstances the grain of the ground glass becomes visible, etc.?

I had an unusual situation with my Mini35 on a recent film; a 135mm Zeiss with a 2x doubler, shot at T1.9 (but effectively at a 4 due to stop loss from the doubler) caused an out-of-focus highlight in the background to "sparkle". The movement of the oscillating ground glass was visible just in this highlight but nowhere else in the frame. We were able to take the time to hunt down the offender (sun reflecting off a car window 2 blocks away, remedied with a hunk of duvetyne laid on the window) but it was a fascinating looking artifact in the meantime.

I personally would be surprised to see a signficant price reduction on this level of technology from either P+S or Movietube. Their products are based on a professional pricing scale, not prosumer. Those who find the professional prices unfathomable have been effectively spoiled by the loss-leader pricing of the prosumer/consumer market, where units are measured in the 10's of thousands (I'm quite sure that less than 1000 Mini35's have yet been sold, probably less than 500) by corporations who are able to absorb losses through other divisions.

It may be possible for one of the homebuilder proponents to bring a competitive product to market, but it still hasn't happened yet and may never happen (it would be fun to see it happen, though).

Back to the product at hand; Dietmar, have you had the opportunity to see any comparative footage between the Movietube and the Mini35, and/or is there a comparison chart of features/benefits? Do you know if the Movietube has better transmission (less light loss)?

The Problems in the bright areas where looking like bad single chip ccd camcorders, but I think it was an effect produced by a not fully perfekt gg and clumsy light setup.
But as I wrote the other video is much better in this areas, thats why I think the gg has been the problem.
The gg is never visible (maybe there are circumnstances under which it is visible like in the mini35 but I don't think so) - I know the effect wen the gg is visible in heavy back light.

@Carles: You wouldn't believe how much mini35 and PRO35 have been sold - afaik much more.

Concerning a direct comparison - I had never had the chance to see od do such a comparison, but maybe it is possible in two month when I start my new job at MBF which is one of Germanys biggest rental houses. They have a lot of mini35 and PRO35 - a Movietube and it would be very interesting to know which is the better one and all about the advantages and disadvantages of them all.
I'll try to establish a connection to the Movietubmakers for a free test Movietube.

dietmar

Dietmar,

Could you copy the new DVD sample that you received for me? I would like to see the difference between the one they gave me and the one you have.

Thanks,

Norm

Can someone scan the image, im dying to see what it looks like in real life.

Long behold....

http://www.q-films.com/test/MOVIETubeLT.jpg
http://www.q-films.com/test/MOVIETuvePro.jpg

hey Norm, thx for posting the pix man! Merry Xmas to you and yours.


Sid

Well bless my britches....
an actual photo! I take back the vaporware comment!
now where can I try one out, and then anyone want to buy a mini35?

um, what's with the 45 degree angle pitch thing happening there?

Has something to do with the inverting mirrors, is that right?

Yes, they call it Schmidt-Prism it is a special kind of prism.
The versions for the 2/3" camcorders will have some other kind of prism.

@Norm: please send me your address. then I'll send you a copy of this DVD.

dietmar

Yeah, I'm not really digging the 45 degree angle, either. Seems like it would be uncomfortable to hold. Overall, it just seems bulky and awkward compared to the Mini35.

I'm glad that there's finally going to be competition for the Mini35, though! Then again -- this thing doesn't work with the XL1 / XL2? I think that fact alone (besides its Herman Munster styling) may be its downfall.

Hmm - we'll see.

I think it looks much better then the mini35. How much?

hi everyone: is there any way we could all see a clip of anything shot with this I have been hearing about this device for almost a year. and have yet to see even a still. heck the kids in the agus35 thread post shots . or is this the famous teaser.