We can now just dump our BPAV onto the pro discs via drag and drop and anything else we want to put on there!

Philip Bloom Blog Archive Finally. The best way to archive SxS and anything else you want! (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/08/13/pdwu1/)

If the EX clips are wrapped as an MFX will the Sony XDcam decks see them as video, or are the EX clips just transferred to the PDW U1 as data files?
In other words if I write to a PDW U1 then put it in an XDCAM 1500 deck will it show up in thumbnails and be viewable as video?

Phil - I own an EX1 and although my data needs I'm sure are much more tame than yours (I'm not doing near the volume of work you are), I don't personally own a PMW-U1. I'm thinking, however, that it would be viable for me to store to a mirrored set of drives when I archive, then transfer those over to XDCAM media when filled by renting the PMW-U1 and purchasing the media as-needed.

So forgive my ignorance on this next question due to my lack of experience with XDCAM media - is the shelf life significantly more impressive than that of a standard-issue burnable CD-ROM or DVD has turned out to be? They're saying now that the shelf life for those that you'd pick up at a store for regular burning or backing up is 10 years or so on best, last I remember. I'm not backing up to optical media right now, but if XDCAM isn't any better than that, I think I'd be better of with the mirrored drive set, one kept off-site...

The PDW-U1 costs about $2800. A 50gig XDCAM disc runs around $60 each. For that amount of money, you can buy TWENTY EIGHT 1 terabyte hard drives.

Sorry, I can't resist: for that kind of money, you could buy a fully loaded 16TB DroboPro or perhaps over 9600 3.5" floppy disks (~14GB of storage!)


<rant>The debate over archival strategies rages on and the only conclusion that I've come to is that different people have different requirements, differing value placed on the content, as well as different definitions of the word "archival". For some, I think using XDCAM discs for long-term storage is brilliant. For others, maybe just using spinning rust (hard drives) would suffice. YMMV, yada yada yada, if you can't justify solution "X", then you can't justify solution "X". I can't justify a robotic LTO tape library, but that doesn't mean my material isn't valuable to me. I use an archival strategy I trust and one that I can justify.</rant>

Almost forgot to thank Phil for letting us know the good news.

Once the summer rush is over, I'll probably consider one of these drives.

Sorry, I can't resist: for that kind of money, you could buy a fully loaded 16TB DroboPro or perhaps over 9600 3.5" floppy disks (~14GB of storage!)

For the cost & time savings I went with a DroboPro. I was holding off for the U1 drive to be upgraded but I just can't ignore how little a loaded DroboPro is in comparison.

The Sony professional discs are designed to have a shelf life of 50 years. I've seen a couple of Drobo systems go bad corrupting the entire file system so not as impressed by them as I once was.

The PDW-U1 costs about $2800. A 50gig XDCAM disc runs around $60 each. For that amount of money, you can buy TWENTY EIGHT 1 terabyte hard drives.

it is professional solution for professional archiving. Just sticking your rushes on a hard drive is not a safe enough archiving solution for me.

This IS a more expensive professional archive option, but fortunately there are many other solutions out there that range in price/speed/workflow, that are equally reliable and professional.

The Sony professional discs are designed to have a shelf life of 50 years. I've seen a couple of Drobo systems go bad corrupting the entire file system so not as impressed by them as I once was.

Thanks, Alister - this is what I was looking for.

You could also just use a 750-gig drive (specifically, yes) and take it down to your local video house/archival storage place and have them archive it for long term storage on LTO tape (which hold 800 gigs on LTO-4). Locally here in Minnesota that could be done for somewhere in the price range of $10/transfer and $0.10/gigabyte (about $85.00). Quite inexpensive and LTO has a 30+ year rating.

You could also just use a 750-gig drive (specifically, yes) and take it down to your local video house/archival storage place and have them archive it for long term storage on LTO tape (which hold 800 gigs on LTO-4). Locally here in Minnesota that could be done for somewhere in the price range of $10/transfer and $0.10/gigabyte (about $85.00). Quite inexpensive and LTO has a 30+ year rating.

That may be true, but it sure isn't going to be very convenient when you need to grab a shot or two out of your archives -- which is something I do all the time.

I think I'll be archiving from now on with 50GB optical disks because I already own a PDW-U1. Obviously, if you don't have a PDW-U1 then it might not make sense for you.

it is professional solution for professional archiving. Just sticking your rushes on a hard drive is not a safe enough archiving solution for me.

I archive in 2 locations. But if both hard drives fail, isn't it possible to send it to a data recovery service?

That may be true, but it sure isn't going to be very convenient when you need to grab a shot or two out of your archives -- which is something I do all the time.

Indeed, that wouldn't be convenient. But it would be convenient if your working drive(s) went down. You could just restore the whole drive for a few bucks. The system would be to capture and duplicate on 750 GB drives and have long-term/archival backup on LTO.
Warren -- have you priced out hard drive recovery? You may as well spend the money on the other systems up front and not worry about it.

I archive in 2 locations. But if both hard drives fail, isn't it possible to send it to a data recovery service?

Maybe, but it could be extremely expensive. About 7 or 8 years ago we had someone's drive fail at work and sent it out. This was back when drives were a lot smaller.

They charged per megabyte recovered. I can't recall the size of the drive, but it was certainly no larger than a few gigabytes and they salvaged a few hundred meg. I think the cost was in the $500-$1000 range.

If the EX clips are wrapped as an MFX will the Sony XDcam decks see them as video, or are the EX clips just transferred to the PDW U1 as data files?
In other words if I write to a PDW U1 then put it in an XDCAM 1500 deck will it show up in thumbnails and be viewable as video?

It is my understanding that the PDW U1 uses File Access Mode (FAM)similar to the XDCAM HD cameras to read and write files. It does not record video. The unit would always have to be connected to a computer via software to play back files.

Am I assuming correctly that these discs are re-writable?

Also, are we limited to the amount of data (with respect to the actual media) we can put on the disk? I've read other places where you could put data in a specific folder on the disk, but it was only a certain amount of data.

Am I assuming correctly that these discs are re-writable? Also, are we limited to the amount of data (with respect to the actual media) we can put on the disk? I've read other places where you could put data in a specific folder on the disk, but it was only a certain amount of data.

Yes, rewritable. I think Sony claims 10,000 cycles and a 50 year life.

The new firmware eliminates the 500MB storage limit for general files, and allows you to use nearly all of the 23GB or 50GB disk for any type of files that you want to burn onto the disc.

Thanks Doug.

I'm about ready to purchase one of these. I'm assuming I'll be able to put 6 8GB cards on one 50GB disc.

I have one project that contains 79 cards. That's going to cost me over $800 just to back the project up, OUCH!

Makes me think twice about just putting it all on DL DVDs for about 1/10th the cost.

Well, from now on, I will build in a budget for the 50GB discs for each project so it can be archived with confidence and the client will foot the bill for the discs.

Are there any storage devices (shelves, cabinets) that hold the XDCam discs? What about labeling?

Thanks,

Jim

Hi Jim,

I think backing up footage on the 50GB discs will be a good solution until something better comes along. Just to be clear, though, I don't currently backup on those discs because the Mac firmware won't allow it yet. So I'm just speaking on "theory" until Sony releases the new software and I have a chance to see how it works in real life. I've already had a PDW-U1 for a couple of years because I also own a PDW-F350 and I use to import clips that were shot with that camera.

Each of the XDCAM discs comes with a couple of labels and it's own plastic case that stack nicely on a bookshelf. The clam shell case is a lot like a plastic Betacam case -- except a lot thinner.

We use MediaFiler to number our discs and keep track of what is on each disc. Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://www.vortexmedia.com/MF1.html) Unfortunately it doesn't run on a Mac.

Doug

Hmm, I'm a bit confused as I thought Phil just announced that Sony has the firmware which should be released any day now.

Can someone enlighten me on this?

There's nothing to be confused about.
"released any day now" is not the same thing as being released and already tried and tested.
Sony has been talking about this update for almost a year.

I'm on two week road trip so it could be out right now, but it wasn't as of a few days ago.
I'm not going to say what it does or how easy it is to do it until I test it for myself.
Not even Phil claims to have actually used it yet.

Wow, not here yet, just Wow. I have given up.

I have just downloaded it and it appears and works as advertised. Now I need to get my Nano Flash files on that disk. Still testing. Stay tuned. Dropping 100Mb CD files into U1 clip folder, not cutting it yet. Ill try 50 Mb. This could be the sweet spot for EX 3/1/Nano.

I have just downloaded it and it appears and works as advertised. Now I need to get my Nano Flash files on that disk. Still testing. Stay tuned. Dropping 100Mb CD files into U1 clip folder, not cutting it yet. Ill try 50 Mb. This could be the sweet spot for EX 3/1/Nano.

Curious to know why the 100Mbps files aren't working.

It may be a Sony directory issue. When I say clip folder, I mean the root clip folder within the Sony Disk Directory. Issues may include the fact that when clips are added to the Sony optical disk, meta data and proxies are generated. By just dropping a clip from the nano flash into the clip folder of the optical disk may need these additional components or a work around.

I deleted this post because I spoke too soon.
BPAV folders and EX clips are completely compatible with both Clip Browser and XDCAM Transfer

Doug,
I have been able to view the BPAV folders that were dragged to the optical disk user data via the Clip Browser. Try again

Did you up the firmware on the U1?

Doug,
I check it again and I am still able to use Clip Browser to view a BPAV folder on the user data folder on a disk.
Driver 2.2.1
Firmware 2.205

And yes you are correct on the XDCAM transfer app. You can not drill down to the BPAV folder on the disk.

Doug,
Transfer times are really slow on the U1 from a USB drive as well as from the 7200 sata drive on my laptop. You can command only 1 task at a time. Still kicking it around.

Dennis,

With a little help from Chris at Sony I found out that I was wrong in my earlier post this afternoon (which I deleted). EX is completely compatible with EX files.

Clip Browser:
With Clip Browser you have to go to the preferences, choose the General Tab, and click the "UserData" radio button. Clip Browser will then look for BPAV folders and EX clips on the optical disk. The other radio button option is "Clip". If you leave the preference for "Clip" then Clip Browser will only see XDCAM MXF files on the optical disk and not the BPAV files.


XDCAM Transfer:
Clicking on the XDCAM disc icon in the Source window will only reveal the XDCAM MXF files. However, if you twirl the triangle icon that is shown just to the left of the disc icon, then the BPAV folders inside the UserData folder will be revealed.

It's hard to explain without images. I'll try to post a few screen grabs when I have the chance.

Anyway, the bottom line is that XDCAM optical is going to meet my needs for archiving native EX clips. It's not the most cost-effective way to do it, but it's going to be rock solid.

Doug,
Playback on the U1 drive using clip browser is NG, the U1 does not read fast enough. So perhaps this method is as you say. Just another place to secure the SxS media. My interest is in the Nano EX possibilities. Record 50MB LGOP and drag files to U1 Disk clip folder. Ill know more tomorrow.

And yes you are correct on the XDCAM transfer app. You can not drill down to the BPAV folder on the disk.

We were both wrong. Misery loves company.

One more thing to know:

XDCAM Transfer will only see the BPAV folders if the folders aren't nested too deep.

This is OK:
Optical Disk / UserData / Card1 / BPAV
Optical Disk / UserData / Card2 / BPAV
Optical Disk / UserData / Card3 / BPAV

This NOT OK:
Optical Disk / UserData / DAY1/ Card1 / BPAV
Optical Disk / UserData / DAY1/ Card2 / BPAV
Optical Disk / UserData / DAY1/ Card3 / BPAV
XDCAM Transfer will not see the BPAV folders if they are buried at this level.

Doug,
Thank Chris for me. Yes transfer is ok, and plays back, but I need to update browser to see radio button.

Doug,
Playback on the U1 drive using clip browser is NG, the U1 does not read fast enough.

On my system it is fast enough. I can playback 35 Mbps 30P clips without any stuttering or other problems on MacPro tower. No problem at all.

D,
what about transfer times. Are you experiencing the same. HAve you tried 34 buss out to U1?

D,
what about transfer times. Are you experiencing the same. HAve you tried 34 buss out to U1?

I haven't timed anything yet, and I don't have a feel for the speed because the BPAV folders I've been testing with are rather small.

No time to test tonight. I've got to get out of here to set up for a 7AM shoot we have in morning. I'm, really behind schedule. The earliest I could do a speed test would be Tuesday.

Doug

Doug
The transfer time to copy an EX file to the User Data folder on the optical disk is 0.6 realtime. So a 16 (14.?)gig card with 57 minutes would take 34 min & :06 sec. Not practical on set but OK. One bad note. You can not stack up Finder copy tasks and walk away if you needed to copy more than one card. Dropping files into the User Data folder is one task at a time, but you can multi-select Folders with BPAV files and drop and walk away.

One other route is to use the Media Concept Plug in for Clip Browser 350+$$. Basically convert EX to 422 50Mb to optical disk. You end up with 422 color space (Does not improve image, but helps in compositing), and Proxy video for EX files. Sounds great except it takes 5x realtime.

My ideal way is to record on the EX SDI HD on a Nano flash at 50Mb, and copy them to the clip folder on the optical disk. Alister has put some time into this and so far we have not come up with a way. Still pushing. I'll try Chris and see where it goes.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-flash-xdr/355619-ex-nano-workflow.html

D,
what about transfer times. Are you experiencing the same. HAve you tried 34 buss out to U1?

Hi Dennis,

I finally had time to test the speed of writing files to the PDW-U1.

To transfer 17.1GB of clips from the internal HD of my MacPro to the "UserData" folder of a 50GB optical disk took 36:01.

I don't think that is too bad. What speeds have you experienced?

Doug, when you wrote back from your Mac to the U1, was this under Snow Leopard? I'm experiencing problems trying to do just that.

Luc,

No. I have not updated any of my Macs to Snow Leopard. I'm not aware of any benefits it would give me to do so, and there seem to be plenty of people having trouble with it.

Are all your drivers up to date? Don't ask me what those version numbers those should be. :-)

Doug

Hi Doug. Yes, I updated all the drivers, but I remember I once read something about incompatibity between Snow Leopard and writing back to XDCAM Pro disk. I just cannot find it anymore, so I was hoping somebody here would know more details.

I hate myself for updating my Mac Pro to Snow Leopard. I did so, because some friends were advising me to, bragging about 'higher speed' and 'more features' they got out of it. But ever since I did the upgrade, my Mac is not only slower, but I've ran into restrictions on different levels. Lesson learnt: next time I'll wait at least a year, and even then...

I've been an idiot, because I knew this from the PC world: I've worked with Windows XP for almost 10 years, without ever upgrading (?) to Vista. I just thought that with Apple the upgrades would be more reliable. BAD mistake, as I know now.

So now I have this beautiful PDW-U1 unit since yesterday, but it does only half of what I bought it for.