Bob, Brett, Les, and all the others in this club...,

Look for (batterie) audio cassette player motors. Most work with 3 to 5 Volt and, with a pair of eletronic parts (poti, transistor), you can speed change simple on power change.

No, why would I be kidding. Oh, thats right, this is the internet ;)
Anyways, as I mentioned before, I used a lathe to make the offset shaft. I was going to use a pin in the end of the shaft, but it's harder to do it that way. Without a lathe, I'd do a pin and put it in with some red locktite.
The motor is from a tape deck, it seems good, maybe a bit big. I'll have to see how fast it needs to run to motion blur out the grain. With a smaller radius the rpm has to be more to get the velocity. The closer you get the weights to the plane of the moving part, the less vibrations you will have. You have to think dynamic balance, CG is not the only thing involved, for this thing, any counterweight will help, it doesn't vibrate that much.
Is yours constructed yet?
-Les



<<<-- Originally posted by Brett Erskine : Les-
You werent kidding. Join the club. Very nice work btw. Could you post a picture of your off set arm and tell us where you found it or how you made it. Also hows that motor working out for you? Is it quiet enough? Whats it's RPM's? Voltage?

I was thinking about the counter weight issue some more and you could also put it on the far side of the shaft. The opposite side than where Rai put his. That way when you add more or less weight its not only easiler but you arent changing the position of the GG. Either way will work though.

I remember someone mentioning the magnet idea before (maybe it was you). You may not need that if you switch to a micro sized bearing because the slack in those things are a fraction of 1 mm. Hobby store. 5 bucks a pop though. Let keep working and sharing ideas. Thanks.

-Brett Erskine -->>>

Audio cassette (Walkman) motors huh...Hmm interesting. I wonder how cheap and small they make AC/DC converters these days that would be to run one of thoughs 48X CD-ROM drive motors or a variable speed. Or perhaps a manufacture has the same motor available in a DC.

My mechanism is half built. I'll post something when I get closer.

-Brett Erskine
www.CinematographerReels.com

you should try ultrasonic motor. that is what they use in autofocus lens like the canon EOS.
see http://www.photoscene.com/sw/tour/inside.htm
you can even see that this kind of motor is like a ring, so stacking two of them can give the ideal movement if they are not centered.
the first one is moving the second which is moving the GG, each one having different speed and are non centered so you obtain a kind of chaotic orbital movement
they run smoother and quieter than regular motor and offer a better torque/size ratio so you probably can have a real small (flat) one. you even can find linear motor that move along a straight line and can go back and forth at more that 100x/sec.
the only drawback is ultrasonic vibration can sometime be a trouble in fine mechanics.
The positive fact is it could help to keep your gg clean...
check too http://www.adaptronics.com/products/ultrasonic_motors/index.html
For instance i am pretty happy with my fixed gged condenser.
with good light, the grain in SD video is not really noticeable.
i learn from several test that a lens with relative aperture at 1.4 is a real plus. at 1.7 or 1.8 you still get vignetting too easily.
fortunately, this is just the kind of old lense with M42 mount you can find for cheap everywhere (mine is a revuenon paid 20$).
Unfortunately you are limited to FL at 50 or 55, because it seems unusual to find a FL under or over with such specs. anyhow 50 or 55 mm is still a pretty workable value, close to what you get from a video camera.
i solve the vignetting effect by using a lens that look like a huge contact lens. This totallly remove vigneting.. you find these lens into any photo or video lense , usually just behind the firste one.

Giroud-
Excellent idea! Of coarse the ones used in EOS lenses are practical for a few reasons but I'll do some hunting around for a small DC ultrasonic motor. I think ultrasonics may be the answer guys. Thanks

-Brett Erskine

I mean, "NOT practical"

I wonder what voltage the cannon motors need? 50 or 100 volt driver at some high frequency ? I like the look of them !
-Les

They are nearly the diameter of the lens - making them too large to use for our purpose. It would be nice IF they moved in a oscillating motion because we could just simply mount the GG in the center of one of them. But they only rotate and slowly at that.

On another note - Im killing myself here looking for a tiny offset shaft. Can someone pleeeease help me?

-Brett Erskine

Brett, you´r right. They only rotate... so you have a point in the middle with visible grid... and also it rotate slowly...

Find a company with repair parts for audio recorder and you find a lot of different motors, belt, etc., all for small $.

Tiny offset shaft? How much may they cost? How much may a complete set of parts cost? With or without motor, housing, etc.. Give me an idea. Maybe you have found a source...

brett, i love the opening shot on your demo reel...how did you get that look? it's high production value looking!

Thanks for the comment on my demo reel. I dont want to talk off subject too long so I'll make this quick.

Shot on 16mm, Two 2k fresnel bounced into 2 3'X3' foam core, dark smoke colored backdrop, fake snow, 1 girlfriend, 45 fps, heavily overexposed, color shift during telecine, slight highlight glow ala Photoshop.

Half of that demo was shot on the DVX100 and the other two "travel epics" demos were COMPLETELY shot on the DVX100. Amazing camera.

For thoughs interested heres a link to the demos:

www.CinematographerReels.com

-Brett Erskine

Back to the subject - I decided to just take to finely threaded metric bolts and have them spot welded side by side at the tip. Its seems like its going to work well because I can just screw on all of the hardware I need on to it and everything will be rock solid. I'll post pics soon if someone is interested.

Thanks for the info about the audio motors. I may end up going that way but before I do I really want to look into these ultrasonics. I found some small ones but they are AC or only 250 rpm. Havent found any advertised prices...Im starting to think that these little guys are expensive. Anyone else doing research on them?

I'm thinking of building a run of parts kits for the oscillating substrate mover. It would be similar looking to the one I posted pictures of before, but with 4 shafts. It would include the motor and mount for the motor. It will be matte black. You provide your own center piece to orbit. The mount will have a hole for it.

It took me about 6+ hours of work to make the first one, but if I do several at the same time, it would make it easier.
I'm thinking $375 for the 4 shaft version, if I get several people interested.
I'm just putting a 'feeler' out there at this time, to see if it's at all interesting to those DOF fans out there.

-Les

Les-
What city are you from? I'm from Anahiem, CA. Maybe we should work together on our adapters.

-Brett Erskine

I suppose I'm gonna have to read this thread more carefully to really understand how this device rotates/oscillates/does-its-thing.
Les,
I'm wondering what modifications might need to take place to use a Medium Format lens, which projects an image twice as large as a 35mm lens projects onto the GG. Major Reworking of the design, or just cut a bigger hole and space it all farther out?

Matthew, these pictures shows the basic device I made:
( see the dsc named pics )
http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/

I do plan on making the next one bigger and with 4 shafts to allow more optimum use of the middle area. Using a larger area even with a 35mm derived lens would be a plus.

-Les

i was in the hobby shop last friday, and discovered very powerfull (and expencive - about 200$ (at least in poland) ) brushless motor with all cabling etc. - for remote controled model airplanes, cars etc. which can acheive more than 20.000 rpm. and is very quiet. does anyone of you know more about these things?

motor is in my opinion proper in size and if you use lower voltage - it revolves slower. (it starts from 750rpm and each 1v added is 750rpm more)

i understand that for our purpose - we will need minimum 1800 rpm (ntsc) or 1500 rpm for pal countries. yes?

does anyone knows what manufacturer made p+s motor?

================
to les dit:

i'm impressed! great work! what kind of motor you are using with your device?


thanks,

filip

Thanks!
I used a motor from a tape recorder.
The motors from the hobby shop you mentioned are high amperage high power for cars and planes. The motor I use only draws about 1/3 amp at 6V , you don't need much power.
The speed depends on the shutter speed as well as the radius of movement.
-Les



<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : i was in the hobby shop last friday, and discovered very powerfull (and expencive - about 200$ (at least in poland) ) brushless motor with all cabling etc. - for remote controled model airplanes, cars etc. which can acheive more than 20.000 rpm. and is very quiet. does anyone of you know more about these things?

motor is in my opinion proper in size and if you use lower voltage - it revolves slower. (it starts from 750rpm and each 1v added is 750rpm more)

i understand that for our purpose - we will need minimum 1800 rpm (ntsc) or 1500 rpm for pal countries. yes?

does anyone knows what manufacturer made p+s motor?

================
to les dit:

i'm impressed! great work! what kind of motor you are using with your device?


thanks,

filip -->>>

Im going with medium format GG because its at least 4X as large (surface area). Contrast, sharpness are greatly increased and grain reduced. I plan on using medium format lenses once in a while but the beauty of having over sized GG is that you can choose between different format lenses. Want to use a 35mm lens - fine, a medium format lens - fine too. Thru test I found that 35mm lens already throw a image nearly the size of 2 1/4 medium format GG so this means even if you stick with 35mm lenses you'll see a fairly large improvement in contrast, sharpness and grain. ANOTHER plus to using medium format GG is you dont have to zoom in as much with your camcorder's lens and you know what that means...You can use a faster f stop on your camcorders lens which is VERY important for a homemade mini35. AND since you dont have to zoom in any more that also means that you dont need to use expensive achromatic diopters.

Im having a custom GG made by a specialist. He really seems to know what he's doing and he claims its the brightest, least grain, most even field GG out there. Well see. I'll let you all know.

So Les how do you like the tape recorder motors? Are you picking up their noise in your mics? Are they fast enough to get rid of the grain...even at 1/500 shutter speed? Are you going to keep them for your next version of the adapter or would you change anything about them if you could?

See ya
-Brett Erskine

I should mention one BAD thing about using larger (medium fomat) GG. Chances are you'll end up with a adapter that is a hair too large and heavy to safely screw mount to the video cameras lens without the aid of a rod support system. Just something to keep in mind when building.

-Brett Erskine

Brett: Your idea sounds excellent! However, if you do decide to switch down from medium format to 35mm lenses, you would need to use an achromat and/or zoom, right? (Due to the smaller projected image.) Or did I miss something?

Thanks!

frankly whatever is the size or weigth or your adapter, i would not recommend using it without some support , without the risk of seeing the front of your camera popping out .
additionally using the upside down camera is a good idea that require some additional mount anyway.
if i got time i will show you some pics of my aluminium mount, it is ugly but very efficient.

I agree with Giroud,
The screw mounts on camcorders are very weak, usual held together with plastic components.
If you are serious about going to the effort of mimicking 35mm DOF, you should be thinking of a rail mount system for the DOF maker and the filter holder as well as shade system on the front of that.
Be careful of that little screw mount !

-Les

Frank-
To answer your question...Yes AND No. All 35mm lens project a image larger than a 35mm focusing screen (36mm X 24mm) BUT how much bigger is the question. I hear that they are all slightly different. The lens I happen to check was a Canon 50mm F1.8 (or f1.4 I dont remember). That particular lens projected a image that nearly filled the entire GG measuring 2 1/4 inches square. If I had to eye ball it I would say the image was 2-3 times larger than a 35mm focuing screen.

What does it all mean? Well if that image size is aprox right for just about all 35mm lenses then you should be able to shoot without any achromat lens (at least with the DVX100. I havent tested other cameras)

As far as a rod support system - Im with you guys. Most cameras only have a 2 or 3 threads in the front of their built in lens. The first time you bump your adapter hard on something...well I wouldnt want to be you. You likely to watch your adapter and film lens fall to the floor and break - only to find later that thoughs 3 threads that are a perminate part of your video camera are also broken. You may never be able to thread ANYTHING on front of your camera again. No thanks.

Which brings me to my next question. Can I see pictures of your rail system Giroud?

-Brett Erskine

A furthur affirmation of a support system for the mount. Close coupling still imposes a load on front of the camera even if the lens hood mount is used.

There is quite a lot of compliance in the lightweight camera body and it is not good to exercise that too much.

ok , first pictures.
http://www.giroud.com/miniDV/frame1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/miniDV/frame2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/miniDV/frame3.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/miniDV/frame4.jpg
probably a good pass with a black paint spay will help to get a more professional look
not seen on picture is the hires LCD monitor from sony, allowing to make sure that focus is ok. It will be fixed just behind the cam in a way you can tilt it a bit .
All is made from very cheap aluminium profile. You just need to cut and assemble together. The full stuff cost me less than 35$.
tubes are 16mm diameter, but unfortunately i do not respect the standard distance between them (should be 80mm) to be compatible with professional devices. not too bad as i do not plan to mount expensive professional item on it anyway.
the lense as a front thread of 55mm and i found an adapter to 58mm so i can mount my wide angle (canon WD58 or my anamorphic wide lens -century optics)
if i got time, tomorrow i 'll put some shot from the camera.

today i was to a photographer shop to see some lenses.
I compare several 50mm 1:1.4 from minolta, pentax, canon, nikon.
Despite having the same optical specs, all these lenses were really different when comparing the diameter of the lense.
there is at least 5 or 6 mm in difference in diameter between the smallest and the biggest lens.
That means you can get a 50mm 1:1.4 lense that has a rear lens of 30mm of diameter when an other lens can have 36mm of diameter. this makes probably a huge difference regarding hotspot and vignetting.
i am starting a 2nd prototype with oscillating gg.
I think you can easily solve the problem of excentric shaft.
you drill a plate and insert the axis into the hole. you just need few mm to get the roller bearing to plug on it.
then you make your Delrin parts twice as high as the roller bearing. in the first half you will put the axis centered. the second half will be drilled to make a hole to cover the roller bearing.
the trick is to drill that hole slightly out of center. that is easy, probably even more than drilling it centered.
an other way would be to drill the second axis out of center, with as better result that the delrin part turn centered.
all the stuff should not exceed few milimeter high.
i thing the delrin part should have a big diameter so you can outcenter the 2nd axis heavily. the result will be that even a slow rotation will induce a big translation. that requires a bigger glass but should cause less vibration.

Giroud ,
In the USA , if you took that outside, I'll bet the police would be there soon, thinking it's a weapon of some kind !

Nice work on the AL parts, it all looks pretty clean!

-Les

just a thought...

has anyone tried an optical image stabiliser mechanism from say a busted camera to move the GG

by-pass the sensors and feed it a sinusoidal signal in x and y to produce the orbital motion

OIS supports a lens element so a GG would be that much lighter

also they are small, light, quiet and designed to fit in a tube

thank you giroud for the pictures of your support system .
It looks very professional.

this will be of great help in helping all of us to make our own .
I have a 6 pound anamorphic lens I would like to use. your rack system will let me use it


this is a link to a company that sells aluminum rods I can't
vouch for this company yet but they seem to have parts we might need . http://www.smallparts.com/

Thanks for the link. Im sure I'll be able to find some things there. I checked out their supply of aluminum stock and unfortunately they dont deal with metric sizes. I mention it because support rails and most pro accessories are based off a 15mm rod. FilmTools have them for $70, which even I think is too expensive for something so basic. They are however chome plated and you can screw in extensions.

Any more sources guys?

Also Les I never heard what you thought of the audio tape motors. I would love to hear some responses to the question I posted the other day.

Thanks everyone.

-Brett Erskine

Bret,
I think I mentioned that my motor was from a tape deck, so yes, they seem to work fine. They usually have a little pulley on them as well, so you don't have to hunt for that also.

I haven't had time to finish my shaker rig in the past few days, I have another opto-electronic project that is going to eat most of my time in the next 2 months. Gotta pay the bills! I'll try to get it all mounted during this weekend.

-Les

Brett.

Would a fan motor from a computer (ball bearing type not plain bearing) be any good. They're built for continuous duty and I think some are brushless DC. Might be an oddball voltage though.

<<<-- Originally posted by Giroud Francois : ok , first pictures.
probably a good pass with a black paint spay will help to get a more professional look
All is made from very cheap aluminium profile. You just need to cut and assemble together. The full stuff cost me less than 35$.


Looks very professional to me, one of the best DIY rail systems I've seen so far. I wish I knew how to achieve this look without using a milling machine, which I do not have. I'd be most interested in how you solved the coupling between the rods and sliding support. Also, are your sliding supports height-adjustable? Great work!

ok , first the picture...
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/c.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/d.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/e.jpg

now for the aluminium stuff, i try to find only component you can assemble with epoxy glue and some screw when needed.
Fortunately my DIY shop as all what i can dream.
i do not plan for this first shot to make anything variable.
you can just slide the stuff along the rail as it is just blocked by 4 o-ring plastics joints.
i plan to add another stuff like a handle and a shoulder support so i can use it without tripod.
The next version will be more sleek , all soldered instead screwed and probably respecting the 80mm spacing as the bars are already at the standard (15mm). as soon as i got time i will show more macro shot (probably breaking the dream but who cares...)

Wow! Those are very impressive images. Excellent work, Giroud!

Giroud-
I agree! Very nice! You have a static 35mm adapter which makes it even more amazing. Could you refresh us with the components you used for your set up (ie type and placement of diopter, gg, etc.)

ok , i will post all the pictures so no long explanations are necessary.
The gg has been made with a technique a learned from several bad previous attempt.
I put my AO (it is the 1000 grit one) obtained from a guy in france who purchased tons of it for his miniDV project and start to share.
it cost me 10$ and it is the only one i got, since my previous order on the web has been never responded.
I put about 3 or 4 teespoon of it into a baby food glass pot.
added about 3 time water. shake for 10 sec, leave for 5 sec and take a small syringe and fill it. Drop a few of it on the glass plate . this ensure you only get the finest of it.
that is very liquid mix, and you can even think it is only colored water.
put the lens over and start to move slowly. no pressure required , just a lot of time (count about 30 min for the first result).
you can here the sound shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
suddenly shhhhhzrrrrrrshhhhhhhh. ooops you just got a bad sheep and probably made a nice scratch. Clean all with water (lens and glass) shake the mix and start again.
if you are lucky you got a good shot and the bad noise never come back.
While you work, the mix start to dry and the AO tends to accumulate on the border. just bring it back with the lens (passing on it) and add a bit more of the mix when it is drying.
this is were the syring is very effective.
the advantage of this is you let the AO wear and it goes probably finer as you progress.
The result is a very fine gg ,too fine indeed, so you will need to make a pass with a mix of AO a bit more consistent (more AO, less water) for few minutes and with a bit more of pressure.
This get the real final aspect (very opaque glass).
Personally this stage included the creation of fine scratch that i removed with the same technique (lot of water, few AO) described before.

Another point is that i am not using glass of a uV filter but the one from a very thin lens (you will see that in picture soon). I think the kind of glass used inluence greatly the result.

... pictures.
the alu part costing about 1$ each except the right angle tube (electrical booth of the DIY shop) that cost 6$.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu3.jpg
not shown are eloxed tube (1meter, 15mm dia) for about 5$
it is not raw alu, it is a special stuff called Duralumin that is much harder (you can not bend it, it will break like steel) and it is much lighter than alu and the mat eloxed finish is very cool.

the GG lens (the one for my 2nd proto, not yet frosted) because i still hesistate to use it if i have to vibrate, should be too big and heavy. the lense is 60mm diameter and about 4mm thick at center.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens.jpg
the achromat macro lens 52mm dia.(this one was a test for GG)
5$ at www.suplusshed.com
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens2.jpg
all these lens have pretty long focal length (around 20cm) that is why my adapter is so long. I think i could make it shorter, but the previous version that was shorter about 2 inches showed heavy vignetting that is why i build this version longer.
Finally there is another lens between the condenser and the macro that looks like a huge (55mm dia) contact lens and i think this one make all the difference and could probably let me shorten all the stuff.
the pot with the AO (since several week the water evaporate but you can still see the level it was.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/aomix.jpg

Girard.

If you use a piece of bronze with flat smooth surface, milled or turned on lathe, there is less problem with sticking-scratch.

Giroud-
Thanks for the detailed response. One question. You say that you have another lens between the condenser and the macro lens and its shaped like a contact lens. Do you mean it has two curved surfaces - one convex and one concaved? What is the effect/purpose of this lens in your adapter?

Thanks ahead of time.

-Brett

yes that is correct . the lens has a concave side and a convex one.
they are not the same curve, so there is a magnification effect, but not really big
the lens anyway is very thin (few milimeters at the thickest).
the picture i got without this lens (gg condenser +macro) was good but you can still see this halo (bright center/dark corner) on my 60mm diam. gg glass.
the zoom was then very touchy to place to make sure you did not get any vignetting.
Then i just give a try to this lens and wow, what a difference.
the gg glass become covered with same light on all the surface, while keeping the same field of view.
the only problem i did not see immediately it that the position of the lens is critical. too close from the gg and the straight line start to curve inside and too far they curve outside, but finally i found the correct distance and all is ok.

to Bob Hart.
Ok thank for the advice, but it seems this kind of equipment is in the "hard to find" section and my strategy for the miniDV project was "keep it simple". That is why i am still reluctant to gg vibration as it is involving very special work and parts.
I do not desesperate to be able to do it with very simply but tracks are not really clear.
Any way if you can reach the quality of my gg glass, the level of vibration required should be very small.

ok, after some brain storming with myself , i think a got a simple easy solution.
first you need an aluminium plate to hold all the stuff.
can be round or square, round being easier to put in a tube.
in this plate you drill the hole to display the picture.
A round hole is easier, a square one is better since it leaves more space on at least the 2 shortest side of the window.
you drill 2 small holes to receive 2 short axis on which you will plug 2 roller bearing
if you got a plate with thickness of 3mm and a roller bearing thick of 3mm , then an axis long on 6mm is ok.
diameter and position of axis depends the internal/external diam. of roller bearing.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/plate1.jpg
you can lock the roller bearing with locktite or glue on the axis.
the next part is the hardest.
It is a cap made of delrin or aluminium that covers the 2 ball bearing. one of this cover is the pulley that makes rotate the 2nd plate, so you can design it a bit larger than the other one.
this cap as a pin on top of it that act like an axis.
this pin (or axis) is not centered in the middle of the cap, but out centered to produce the displacement needed. 1 or 2 mm is enough i think. the less you move, the less you generate bad vibs.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/cap.jpg
again you can glue the cap on the ball bearing.
then you plug a 2nd set of ball bearing on the axis of the cap.
The last part is the plate that hold the gg.
it is smaller diam. than the first one due to the displacement, but basically can have the same shape as the first one.
you glue this plate onto the external ring of the ball bearings and it is finished.
before glueing it, do not forget to put in place the belt that will run the pulley. you can use a very small diameter motor (the same one used for vibrating device in mobile phone for example, they have the same diameter as a cigarette).
http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/jameco/home.d2w/report?search=&sort=&startRowNum=211&totalSize=252&cgrfnbr=803&cgmenbr=91&ctgys=503%3B535%3B803%3B&Next.x=26&Next.y=15
the challenge is to find 4 really small ball bearing like you find in floppy drive or harddisk (about 5mm diam. for about 3mm thickn.) to build a really compact gg vibrator.
http://www.smbbearings.com/smbcatalogue.htm
if you think that only 2 axis is too weak, you can add an axis to form a triangle as there is some space left next the top ball bearing on image plate1.jpg.
axis can be made from drill of drilling machine as you can find them
in various diameter and they are made of steel.

You may recall from your school days that 3 points make a plane. So I recommend at least 3 support points. Otherwise it will flap around in funny ways.
After making mine with 3 , I would now use 4, because it allows more room for the glass. That needs 12 ball bearings and 4 shafts.

I posted pics of the one I made. ( see the DSC series in there )
http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/

Am I the only one to have done this?

My offer of providing pre machined kits still stands, $350 gets you all the stuff , without having to try to make it out of office supplies and kitchen junk ! ;)

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Giroud Francois :
...the challenge is to find 4 really small ball bearing like you find in floppy drive or harddisk...-->>>

Giroud (and others): I have been looking around for bearings suitable for this project, as I am also wanting to build one of these. The hobby stores around here don't carry small enough bearings, and the suppliers I've found online seem to be for ordering in bulk. BUT, I do have access to a bunch of old floppy drives, hard drives, CD-ROM drives, etc that I can take apart. Would I find some of what I need in there, or is it built in a non-modular format to where the bearings couldn't be removed as a unit?

Thanks for you guys' help!

Giroud,

You are going with the vibrating version? Were you unsatisfied with the results of your static GG? It looked pretty good to me.

By the way, on your current static ground glass, how far can you stop down the lens before the grain starts to show?

-yes i am happy with the static result but just for curiosity i want to try the moving one, because anyway if it is not ok , at least you can shut down the motor and get a static one.
-I think that 2 axis are ok due to the fact that all the stuff is vertical , wheith and distances are small, but you are right, 3 axis is safer and doesn't add much work.
for the parts like ball bearing, the problem ofgetting them from junk equipment is to find more than 2 or 3 parts with same specification. for those who make proto out of nothing like me, it can be ok if you do not plan to build more than one device and don't need for spare parts.
If we achive a good design, i think we could put our ressources together, each one providing what he can get easily and make a kit that contains all the hard to find parts.
list would be.
-8 small roller bearing +axis (30$ ?)
-2 aluminum tubes + sliding parts (20$)
- 2 macro lenses (2x5$)
- 50g of 1000 grit AO
..... add your items here.

I was able to pick up bearings so small they wont even fit on the writing end of a pen. They are out there. I found mine at a r/c hobby store.

Les-
Im with you buddy. You, me and a few other people on this thread are making the same type of adapter. In fact Im the one that recomended changing the design to 4 shafts instead of 3 for the exact reason you just mentioned. I think people would be interested in the kits your willing to put together but make sure your not going to get yourself in trouble with P+S Technik. Since its only a part for the adapter you may not have any problems but check it out. If its a problem I know of some unique ways to move the GG that should get you around the patent.

Brett + Les,
how the the P+S work, you can see on this drawing. http://de.geocities.com/raiorz/vibro_old/vibro1.jpg. But don´t think you can go around the patent if you change the way you move it. The only statement in the P+S patent is that the use a moving GG. That means: They have a patent on all kinds of movings, rotation, slide, vibration and so on...

I had also made some different ways to move the GG. My company had checked the patent and we found a way to go around, but it is not in the way you move the GG.

PS: 3 point is the best, more or less and you have big problems..

Why do you feel 4 points cause a problem?

Also is your design a no GG/front project system?

my opinion is , if it works with 3 don't bother with 4.
For the kit, there is no problem as long as you sell it as a pack of general use parts. People can then do anything they want with after that. just do not put any explicit word or drawing into the description.
I like the design of the ver 2.1 but i think there is no point to move the motor out of the ring if we can put it on the same plate.
that way everyhting can fit in a closed tube.
should give something like this
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/vibro1.jpg
just replace one of the axis with the motor axis. you do not need the belt as the gg plate will act the same.
by viewing you drawing , i understand my idea is more complex to realize than your. Nice job.
as soon as i find the ball bearing i will start the stuff.

Brett, as Giround say: "...if it works with 3 don't bother with 4..." 4 can work, also 5, 6 or more, but why? It only cost power, work, $ and it can wedged.

Giround, well your idea will work. The only think is, you must found a small motor. The original motor can be on his place, because a prisma also need the space.

This way works also: Replace all 3 axis with motors and you don´t need a rubber belt. We found 3 identically constructed CD-ROM Motors have the power.

The only reason I would use 4 shafts is to make it more compact.
On using the motor in place of the shaft, that can work, but remember that the little motors don't have ball bearings, and they may wear out fast because of the vibration motion.
I'm not worried about a patent issue, I am making a substrate shaker, not a GG shaker. It is also a parts set, you have to spend 15min putting the parts together. You can put some sandpaper in the middle and use it to file your finger nails, if you so desire!

Now, if you put GG in there, and sell it like that, you can get in trouble.

Static versions: I always warn people that still frames from these might look great, but the grain won't show on a still. Ask to see a slow panning shot of some out of focus scene. Look for the grain as a pattern that stays in the same place while the scene moves across the screen. It looks like a dirty lens cover. Mind you, I think it's possible to get good results with static methods, but my HD-10 JVC is harder to do this with. As the days of the web cam resolution cameras fade ( DV !) , moving GG will be a better look.