Hey guys, I was checking out my local Gluskin's camera store to look at the cameras there. It had been awhile since I last went there, like last year. I saw that they had the JVC HD1 camera, I was hoping to check out the HD10U unfortunately, so I looked over to the usual spot where they had the XL1S on display. Guess what. No XL1S. (No GL2 for that matter...)

I asked the camera guy there, "What, don't carry the XL1S anymore?" He replied, "Nope. Discontinued. Canon is coming out with a new camera next month to replace it." I was shocked, I asked "Is it a big one or a little one?" He replied "Yup, its a big one, just like the XL1S. But Canon hasn't said much, they've been keeping tight lipped about it to everyone. It's supposed to be like twice the camera the XL1S was from what I understand. So, just come back next month and see."

0_0************

Well, I guess that we'll have "something" to look forward to next month, whether it's a new GL or a new XL1S. cough * possible XL2*cough!

Really?

Someone on another board mentioned that B&H had stopped selling the XL1s, and so I called to check out that claim. The guy at B&H that I spoke to said they still had a bunch in stock, and they were still receiving models from Canon. That was just last week.

I'm not saying your info isn't true, I mean a place like B&H moves a ton of merchandise, so it would make sense to stop shipping to smaller retailers first.... hmmmm

interesting tid bit none the less.
Thanks,

-Luis

This isn't definitive --- but, I had been waiting for several months, hoping madly that Canon would finally release their "new version" of the XL1S --- and finally I just couldn't wait any longer. I needed the XL now, not maybe at some undetermined time in the future.

However, back when I bought my GL1, I believe I got it just about a month before Canon released the "new & improved" GL2...

I'm wondering if maybe Canon Inc. has been indefinitely delaying the new XL's release just because they were waiting for me to buy my new XL1S???

<grin>

That $500 rebate was great though... Oh well, so it goes...

LOL! ROFL! You and me both Ed! Just shortly after I bought my GL1, *pop* presenting the GL2! Darn Canon on that one =D. But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if B&H isn't having the same issue, you know, being told to hold the XL1S's for big sales after the XL2 comes out. Sneaky sneaky! =D

if you need a canon xl1s i know you can buy 1 from ebay at a good price

Good Luck.

It really doesn't make any sense for a major camera manufacturer to surprise their market with a new flagship product out of the blue. Where's the hype? The trade show prototypes? You'll see those before you see your camera in stores.

Canon does not show prototypes, but they tend to show new cameras at some major trade shows usually about 30 days before they start shipping.

I remember seeing 3D lens prototypes at trade shows.

That lens was kind of an exception. Canon was trying to drum up interest in the lens.

Well guys, that's just what the guy said. I know it sounds a bit fishy, I'm personally thinking he may be thinking a new ZR camera or something, but he seemed to know his $tuff now that I think about it, a whole lot more than the old guy who used to work there a year ago =D, so we'll have to see. =/ You would think they would have said something at NAB, but wait a sec, is there any big or at least moderately significant video conventions during late June or early July?

http://www.dvexpo.com/east/

July 14-16

Canon is one of the three main sponsors

Maybe a clue, maybe not :)

That is just two weeks after the latest $500 rebate expires too...

Wow, what a bummer... Now my XL1S will be half as good as it was when I bought it three weeks ago... <g>

As far as the 'where is the hype' question...Chris is right. Canon has never done a lot of "prehyping." Now, as for the customers... i'm a bit surprised we aren't seeing more hype given that we are now getting reports of the XL1s being discontinued, and the rebate ending in less than a month with trade show coming up two weeks later that Canon is sponsoring.

Add that in with the fact that the GL1, GL2, and XL1s were all released in July, and that Canon has updated their cameras roughly every 3 years. The XL1s will be 3 years old in July.

All the clues are there, and seem to obvious that they should not even be refered to as clues, they are road signs.

The XL2 (or whatever it will be called) will be announced next month.....

...so how come there doesn't seem to be much excitement here?

-Luis

Hey, we're excited, we're excited. Actually, I'm very excited. After this whole "25bit HDV" lameness going on at NAB, I'm extremely curious as to what Canon has in store. Let's face it, XL-1 and xL-1s controlled the market for quite some time, due to it's great features. You never know, we may be looking at 50 Mbps or even 100 Mbps, and with lots of luck 4:2:2? Of course, that's pushing it, but Canon has surprised in very good ways without warning before. Such a camera would completely claim the market with Prosumers. This just may be the goal.

Well, there is a thread here with a lot of ffffmmmmmms in it which was pretty exciting for awhile. There's also a statement on another site that the xl2 or whatever will be a 3ccd hd cam. Let the speculation begin.

By the way, Rob Lohman,

Thanks for directing me to this link!

By the way, guys, for those of you that have and XL-1 or XL-1s, I wouldn't bet on Canon releasing this new camera to come with the ability to use the same lenses. I figured on not trusting them that way when they upgraded from the L-1 and L-2 (Hi-8 predecessors) into the XL-1. The lenses from my L-1 and L-2 were not compatable with the XL-1. As a result, I stayted with the Sony DCR VX-1000. It has served me well, but man was I annoyed. Just a small heads up.

I guess one of the reasons that Canon doesn't hype its cameras months before release is that it doesn't want its competitors to know what there up against. My big hope for the new camera is that it's backwards compatible with my XL1s lens, because if I can just buy the body I will be very happy indeed, even if it comes with some super manual lens.

Well, I mean, hell, we all know it will be HD (or HDV as it's called in the industry) and that it will be 3CCD. The only questions remain are:

1. Is it compatible with XL1/XL1S-compatible lenses?

2. Is it HD 24p capable?

3. What size are the CCDs?

4. Does it shoot true 16:9?

5. Does it have a good microphone? (Proably don't =) )

6. Is it going to be blue and white instead of the usual Canon red
and white?

7. Will it be able to kick the $][iT out of Sony's/JVC's/Panasonic's
cameras?

8. Frame Mode?

9. Price?

That's about it for me. But I hope that it does come out, it would be a huge leap from my GL1, which is still in brand new shape because I've hardly used it except for home movies so far =P (want to do some films but it's just lacking in areas). But we'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Well, I mean, hell, we all know it will be HD (or HDV as it's called in the industry) -->>>

Whoa there... It being HDV is a really big assumption. In fact, if it is released within a few months (which may not be the case) then I would be surprised if it actually was HD. Canon seems to adopt new trends much later than other manufacturers, plus HDV was only announced in the fall of last year and it takes between a year and a year and a half to get a new camcorder to the market. If we see an XL2 before the fall, I don't think it will be HDV.

You know, this shouldn't really be in Area 51, seeing as the post that started this thread could easily be confirmed by anyone who wants to take the time.... like me.

I did some research, and quickly confirmed the claim that opens this thread. Now, as for the claims that follow.... I can't speak for those.

JACK:

1. Is it compatible with XL1/XL1S-compatible lenses?
My guess, probably not.

2. Is it HD 24p capable?
HDV, yes. 24p, I'm hearing no, but we'll have to wait and see.


3. What size are the CCDs?
1/3"

4. Does it shoot true 16:9?
Yes.

5. Does it have a good microphone? (Proably don't =) )
Haven't heard anything about the microphone, but no probably not.

6. Is it going to be blue and white instead of the usual Canon red
and white?
Haven't heard anything on color scheme. Actually I never thought to ask about it.


7. Will it be able to kick the $][iT out of Sony's/JVC's/Panasonic's
cameras?
That's obviously a matter of opinion. The only serious contender will be the DVX100a in my opinion.


8. Frame Mode?
This all depends on the support for 24p. My guess is, if the camera includes 24p recording, then frame mode will be a thing of the past. But, since I've heard more than once that 24p will probably not be included in the camera, I'm assuming that frame mode will still be included.

9. Price?
Under $5K is the number I've heard repeatedly.


Of course, not of THOSE claims can be confirmed or denied.
:)

-Luis

I heard through someone who spoke to a prominent 3rd party manufacturer that they had received assurance from Canon that the lens mount would be compatible.

How's that for Area 51 doublespeak--just hope it's true.

My last post on this subject.

A little bird told me back in December...

HDV

24p

Backward compatible

Look for it in August.

I have a feeling it will have 24p.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/canon_xl1s_replacement_04_07_03.htm

By the way, if you look at the comments about the interview, you can see that they were posted at the beginning of April of last year.

Personally I believe it will have 24P because I have a hard time believing otherwise. The market seems to be demanding it, and expecting it, and to not offer it would be marketing suicide.

I was only repeating what I have been told from various sources.
The word I've heard is no 24p.
But again, I'll only believe that when I see it (or don't see it as the case may be).

At least now I know how long I have to wait.

-Mr D.

PS.
By the way, Scott Billups still has this up on his site:
(talking about the DVX100)

"This is a very nice first shot for a 24P palmcorder, but if you want something that gets you out of the consumer market you're going to need to wait for the XL2 later this year."

Take that for what you will.

All I can say is why not hype things up? I mean hey, Panasonic did well with the DVX100. Nice revolutionary features, lots of hype and hey, they're pretty popular.


I'm not an expert in the field of digital video marketing, at all, but I get the same feelings when I think and read about Canon as I did with Commodore in the days of the Amiga. Great potential and great product, but not enough insight and guts to be adventurous in order to try and capture a market. Unwilling to take many risks. DV is a blooming market right? Why not hype the hell out of it - bring exciting and leading edge products out, and get whatever you can from it - after all, profit is what it's all about.


Aaron

Luis: "At least now I know how long I have to wait."

Really? I must have missed that. I'll have to read this topic-thread again... [g]

Ed,

I of course said that assuming that I am right (and why would I assume otherwise?)
:)

The new camera will be announced in July.
I'm assuming that when it is announced, we will be given all the details on the features.

So, yes, although there has been no official word from Canon, I am 100% certain that an announcement will be made in July.

For those of you waiting for an official announcement from Canon before believing that the Xl1s is discontinued and that a new camera is on its way..... well.... I guess you'll have to wait until July to hear it.
:)

-Luis

Ok. I have no information...just a weird hunch, backed up by a speculative reaction to an anomalous occurrance. Here goes.

The new camera is called the XL1 HD.

Here's why....Go to the canondv.com website. Click on the xl1s icon and bring up the xl1s flash front page.

Once in a while over the past few months, I've gone to this site, and changed the xl1s's in the address to xl2's, and all I get is a generic "not on this server" message. After listening to all the HD hype in this thread...which I do not believe at all...I decided to type in HD after the XL1...well I didn't get anywhere, but I did get a Canon generated response that the page isn't there, or has moved. Now I tried a few other options and all I got was the generic message...the only one I could get the canon generated response was by using xl1hd in the address.

I think we can comfortably say that the new camera is called the Xl1 HD.

I'll call when I get to Roswell.

Barry

Ok, now it doesn't work anymore. further proof of my theory, and that canon is indeed watching me. Is that a helicopter?

Barry

Barry, I tried your http://canondv.com/xl1hd thing and it works again

This is exactly why all those people who see UFO's get a such a bad rep. [grin]

Putting wild conjecture aside for a second, I can almost say with somewhat reasonable certainty that sometime in the future Canon is likely to release a new model camcorder to replace the XL1S...

When and what features it will have fall into the wild conjecture department of Area 51...

Hey, what are those strange lights in the sky????

now i pray that my xl1s breaks and i can get the new one for free.... :)

We learn from events of the past, right?
In Summer, 1993, my inside source at Canon USA told me of his training seminar in Japan. He said he had held the working prototype of the new L-2 in his hands, shot footage and played it back on a pro monitor.

It was a super cam for its day. It had a new, advanced, 700K pixel 1/2" CCD, that
used many of the extra pixels to derive an image that had the resolution and rich color of a 3-CCD camera. It had 2-channel
Hi-Fi audio plus 2 more digital channels, an optical image stabilizer, a greatly improved lens with indexed focus stops, timecode, a sharp, full-frame digital freeze, a full-frame TBC, an included 4-channel (quadraphonic) mike and double inputs for it, audio dubbing to either or both digital channels and a plethora of other great features. It was truly the camcorder of which the developers of the original L-1 had been dreaming, but who were cut down by the bean-counters in the budget office.

When the production L-2 appeared for sale that Fall, it was the same mediocre L-1 with timecode, one more meaningless special playback effect and $1,000 added to its price. The bean-counters still ruled.

When my friend first told me of the super prototype, I mourned that I'd just bought an L-1 the month before. When I saw what
the production L-2 actually was, I rejoiced that I'd gotten mine at half the
"new" model's price.

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : we may be looking at 50 Mbps or even 100 Mbps, and with lots of luck 4:2:2? -->>>

Together with this post and what other people have posted
I have one response: stay realistic. Keep in mind that we must
be able to edit the footage as well. Which NLE's support 50 mbps
DV? I don't now if there even is 100 mbps DV. 25 mbps DV does
not support 4:2:2 and I'm not sure about 50 mbps DV.

I highly doubt they would go that far and include an NLE because
we can't use anything else (basically).

It will probably still be DV or HDV.

<-- Which NLE's support 50 mbps DV? -->

FCP does, the next release of service pack for winxp will support 50mbps, avid is building it into express...

i imagine premiere and others will follow

Adobe can include 50mbps or higher support in a patch or something, I guess. I mean, they did just come out with Premiere Pro 1.5.

Newest Rumor I've heard:

24P will only be supported in DV mode.
HDV mode will shoot 1080i.

Not sure if that's true, but that's what I heard.
Personally I don't believe it.
Take it for what you will.

By the way,
I don't think there is any such thing as "50mbs DV"
The DV codec is 25mbs, it is defined as such.
Just like there is no such thing as 4:2:2 DV.

If what you guys are thinking of is DVCPro50,
it is a proprietary codec owned by Panasonic.
I seriously doubt they would licence it to Canon.

Any sort of 50mbs format would have to be a completely
new format created by Canon, and then supported by NLE
manufacturers.

I seriously doubt we'll see anything like that.
As Rob mentioned, it is most likely that we will see
a DV camera with an HDV mode.

HDV is a standard which Canon agreed to support along
with Sony, JVC, and Sharp. I doubt that after that they
would decide to go off and create a new DV derived format.

-Luis

dvc50 support with avid

http://www.avid.com/company/releases/2003/030406_dvcpro50_corp.html

Today Windows supports DV25. Windows XP Service Pack 2, which Microsoft is planning to release in the near future, is also expected to include support for DV50

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/capturingforhd.aspx

The Avid support you linked to was for DVCPro50.

As far as Microsoft's support of DV50, it is something they say
they plan to support in the future.... I guess as soon as there
is a DV50 codec.

Again, I don't know of anything that has a datarate of 50mbs
other than DVCPro50.

I'm not saying it is not possible (obviously it is possible)
I'm just saying that if Canon were to offer something
along those lines they would have to create a new format.
Not impossible, just unlikely.


On an interesting side note, I just talked to someone at
B&H. He said that he had not heard anything official
from Canon, so he could not confirm that the XL1s was
in fact discontinued. But, he said "Canon's inventory
levels are down on the XL1s. So July would be a good
guess on the new model."


So again, I guess we'll know everything there is to know in
about a month.

-Luis

<-- The Avid support you linked to was for DVCPro50. -->

i had hoped that was made clear from my tag line as well as the heading of the press release, rob asked about editing pana's codec just wanted to let him know options are on the way...

<-- As far as Microsoft's support of DV50, it is something they say
they plan to support in the future.... I guess as soon as there
is a DV50 codec. -->

reading what i wrote i got a different impression, i got the impression that when sp2 for xp is released it WILL include suport for dvc50, which should allow other win nle's to edit dvc50 as it can be brought in through the 1394 pipe...if you read further you will see Ben mentions dv100 as well in sp2...

i never mentioned anything about canon using pana's codec, or anything else that has to do with the xl1, i really don't know anything about that, but as far as editing a 50mps stream on windows, it's coming...that is an important fact glee upon...

Robert,
You are absolutley right.
Sorry if I took your post in the wrong way.
I thought you were responding to something else.

I think I was having a different discussion on my own there for a second.

:)

-Luis

HMM WHERE CAN I MEET THE JUAN FELLOW.... LOL i got my camer about a month and a half ago at mirco-center it was a open item i got a good deal on it with the 500 rebate... so i went ahead and bout the extended warranty. I love the camera. i would never wish harm upon it lol unless a new hd was in the way *snickers*

Fernando . . .

His name is Juan Perreria. He's creating some sort of mod on his dvx-100 to allow him to record the signal straight to a hard drive at 4:4:4 uncompressed 12 bit I think. It's under the "alternative imaging" topic heading and then the link i think is "uncompressed 12 bit 4:4:4 DVX-100".

Here's the direct web address:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20332

These guys are awesome. Wish I was as technically inclined.

Enjoy!

> When the production L-2 appeared for sale that Fall, it was the same mediocre L-1 with timecode, one more meaningless special playback effect and $1,000 added to its price. The bean-counters still ruled.

Actually, the L2 had a bit more beyond time code. An OIS lens was offerd as an option. The Hi8 format did support 4-channel, including a pair of 10-bit digital PCM audio tracks, but you needed a Sony EV-S7000 or similar deck to play in that arena. The CCD was an improved 470k pixel unit. Interval recording was dropped, but other additional playback features and datacode were added, sensitivity was improvd by 6 dB, and a digital wipe effect was added.

I don't know about you guys,
but I'm keeping my fingers crossed
that the new XL camera brings back
that incamera digital wipe effect!!
:)


ahhh...we can only dream.

-Luis

Dan Palomaki wrote:

>Actually, the L-2 offered a bit beyond
>timecode.

---------------------------------------

The OIS lens offered by Canon in 1993 for the VL camcorder series, was strictly an add-on item and could be used with the older L-1. The cheapest I ever saw it sold, until closeout time, was about $2,500. This was more than I had paid for an entire new L-1 kit, a few months earlier. It was also slow in its responses and not as good as the OIS that Canon and Sony put in their small camcorders. I doubt that more than a few of these lenses were sold.

There were rumors about the L-2 having an improved CCD, but when I talked to several people inside Canon, including some video engineers, they denied this. They all insisted that the CCD was the same as in the L-1, with 379K video-active pixels. Then, another rumor claimed that later production runs of the L-2 had a CCD with improved sensitivity, but the Canon people also denied this. I could see no improvement at all in footage from the L-2. Surely, if such an advance was being offered, they wouldn't have surpressed acknowledgement of its existence. My L-1 still works as well as ever, but its images are weak in color compared to Sony Hi-8 cameras of this era
and its white balance, both auto and manual, leaves much to be desired.

Both the L-1 and L-2 and the pro model LX100, were based on great ideas and developments. They had unprecedented features and controls for camcorders in their price range and are a real kick to use. But, factors based on marketing considerations, limited them from being produced in their best forms. The reputation and excitement about the VL series, that preceded its actual release for sale, was the highest point of its existence.

I have a Sony EV-S3000, a Hi-8 VCR with two extra digital audio channels. The quality of this digital audio, that was developed years before and used in a Sony 8mm VCR, is as mediocre as the analog Hi-Fi it also uses is excellent. It's actually recorded only as 8-bit tracks, although processed and output as a 10-bit signal. This level of digital audio just doesn't cut it for anything other than adding dubbed narration.

Now, when the XL2 comes out, it would be nice if thay would also have a 3D lens for it.

Mike

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Metken : Now, when the XL2 comes out, it would be nice if thay would also have a 3D lens for it.

Mike -->>>

Well, that would be nice, but it probably won't happen. There just isn't too much of a market for 3D-cinema...yet. I think it'll really start to kick off with those 3D LCD displays they're making, but until then, well...

But all in all, we'll just have to wait and see.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Metken : Now, when the XL2 comes out, it would be nice if thay would also have a 3D lens for it.

Mike -->>>

Since this is an Area 51 topic, shouldn't your post maybe have said something like:

"I have heard from impeccably reliable sources that the XL2 will definitely come standard with the 3D lens..."

[grin]