We are now moving the image preview/display off the CPU and into the GPU of our motherboard...this will allow much more CPU time for other things like Histogram etc in realtime..not to mention the use of a lower-cost slower CPU if we want..this work is being done as I speak and we are still awaiting the 64bit card for capture of the native raw 10bit 1080p footage..any day now...64bit ...arrgg I hate waiting !!


I am also looking at Dan's GG as an adaptor to be built into the camera as one whole system...all you do is choose your 35mm lens you want on the front..not sure yet if Dan's adaptor is going to work but I may have one here for testing soon


I am now thinking that I may just downsize the 1080P image after capture to 720p because workflow with 720 would be much easer then 1080p..thoughts anyone?

Might be worthwhile but then you won't be working with the raw files much for editing I would hope. You would definitely need to do an online-offline edit.

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : I am now thinking that I may just downsize the 1080P image after capture to 720p because workflow with 720 would be much easer then 1080p..thoughts anyone? -->>>

I think that's a good idea. Certainly, it would make it easier on editor's that don't have a system or monitor that can handle 1080p.

And then go back to the 1080p for online edit and color correction?


That being said, if you're going to be using this for feature film photography - you might be just as well of down converting to SD for your offline. There's no reason to take up a lot of space or mess with large render times if you're going to have to do an online edit later anyway.

That was always my intention. Capture in 1080p. Cut in 480p. Then go back and do an online, color correction, titles, etc.

hi everyone: I have started a new thread with complete
parts list, and photo for the 35mm adapter.

And here is the link to that new thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37296

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : We are now moving the image preview/display off the CPU and into the GPU of our motherboard...this will allow much more CPU time for other things like Histogram etc in realtime..not to mention the use of a lower-cost slower CPU if we want..this work is being done as I speak and we are still awaiting the 64bit card for capture of the native raw 10bit 1080p footage..any day now...64bit ...arrgg I hate waiting !!
-->>

Good to hear the progress, I have been talking to Rob privately about it several months ago, after the response I got to suggesting GPU programming here before. I passed on information on two or three GPU API systems to them. Do we have any idea how small, and the breakdown, of the processor load is for single chip 720p is now?

I understand that upcoming (2005) new mobile versions of 0.9 micron AMD processors will also run at respectively low powered levels (can't rememeber but in the 20watt range, maybe sub 20). VIA will be releasing new 2+GHZ and dual core processors in a few months, hopefully in the same package. This how ever does not help old weak GPU and ethernet systems, but eventually they should be replaced. The power requirement is 3.5watt at 1 Ghz now (so a dual core will be 7w per 2Ghz). Still irrelavent for our purposes, but hopefully they get there act together.


<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : I am now thinking that I may just downsize the 1080P image after capture to 720p because workflow with 720 would be much easer then 1080p..thoughts anyone? -->>>

I have often wondered about image problems at 720p or SD preview. There are certain electrical interferences that can mar an image that may go unoticed in the 720p and SD downsized images. These might rarely happen in reality, but it might go unoticed for a while.

I have often wondered about image problems at 720p or SD preview. There are certain electrical interferences that can mar an image that may go unoticed in the 720p and SD downsized images. These might rarely happen in reality, but it might go unoticed for a while.


What?! I don't understand that one Wayne...

Strong electromagnetic feild, electrical/power faults might put up a fine pattern of niose pattern wobbling through the image (or any other fault) that goes unoticed when averaged out in the downscaling of the preview. Also undesired fine visual detail, paterns that might cause certain strobing, staircasing due to the bayer filter pattern. Just thin possibility, otherwise there is nothing wrong with it.

a good camera product should never have those problems, not if it's properly engineered/constructed.

Circumstances would be normally exceptional with a very well made and conditioned eng camera. Buit with simple cheap cameras attached to not so reliable PC's, who knows. But don't worry about it, Obin asked for comment, and those were the only two things that I knew of.

I understand Wayne, but that would only be a problem with poorly designed circuitry and power-sources/clocks with CCD's. Since many of these new chips are actually iSoc's, (imager system-on-a-chip), the A/D converter, etc. are already enclosed inside the CMOS sensor, and all you should be getting off the chip are digital signals, so everything's already "digitized". Unless the CMOS chip was manufactured badly, or somebody poorly designed the power ciruitry to the CMOS chip, you shouldn't get RF interference or banding.

On the FX-1 front, Kaku Ito's (sp?) been running some tests and it looks like you can capture uncompressed 8-bit 1080i HD from the chip out through the component out and directly onto a hard drive, bypassing the MPEG-2 compression altogether.

We are having good luck with the GPU use for display of pixel data..I have no update to play with yet but my programmer is happy...this is a good sign! ;) more later

<<<-- Originally posted by Joshua Starnes : On the FX-1 front, Kaku Ito's (sp?) been running some tests and it looks like you can capture uncompressed 8-bit 1080i HD from the chip out through the component out and directly onto a hard drive, bypassing the MPEG-2 compression altogether. -->>>

I posted a simular thing before, but I wasn't sure of the interpretation of the data, has it been conclusively proved with on screen tests, and is there a link?

Seen my first FX1 today, if it could only do progressive 1080, 12 bit, HDV2/uncompressed, for $3000, I would go for it.
-----

Other news, from what camcorder info is saying, it looks like Panasonic is using pixel shift on many of it's 3 chip cameras. Get this the new model has around 420K gross pixels (that is 420K/3 CCD's) or around 140K pixels per CCD. It must use the 3 chip pixel shift I have been talkign about, becauses it uses that to get 1.3MP stills (140K*9). It will be interesting to see what latitude and low light performance this camera will get with such relatively large pixels. Now, if the Juan mod was appliable, it would be ussuable in 1.3Mp doco's. I would still like to see a Altasens with three chip pixel shift ;) (Imax ;)
-----

Jason, it is not as simple as that, but it doesn't matter, it is just a consideration.

I posted a simular thing before, but I wasn't sure of the interpretation of the data, has it been conclusively proved with on screen tests, and is there a link?

I don't think it has been conclusively proved, but the first round of tests seem to be good. There are screen tests, where you can download the (very large) uncompressed footage from his website. He has a link to it in his thread on the subject in the Alternative Imaging methods.

I hope this might be of interest to some:

http://www.panavisionsvi.com/imagers_Quad.htm

Sorry, I didn't realise you meant there was a thread on it here.

You can find here the link for the component out recorded out of FX-1:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37427

The comments makes me wonder if the camera is outputing some pre corrected pixel shifted veresion of 1080p.

I got around to posting a adaptor screen technology (face plates), and image down scaling technology for direct sensor chip connection (tapers). Good stuff, hi res, high transmission options. The post is here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&postid=261489#post261489

It has been a saga and a half, I went to look up another technology, I have over 160pages in my bookmark (which were open all at once), of nearly three hundred pages from just one company, that could have fitted into 10 pages (if the web pages had been designed in British style rather than European), this is getting too much for my health.

Hi Wayne,

What do you mean by british style ?

I have done much research via the web, and one thing that makes me want to tear my hair out is big European corporate websites, I don't often go to them but many times they look like they have been designed by deranged people, and it is near impossible to find things in there (even products that are listed there). You spend much time running around looking everywhere the information is supposed to be (if your lucky and they do at least that much). Being bedazzeled by flashy graphics, features that don't work or slow you down, and offer little reward, indeterminate broken disctributed information, that say much about very little. Finally you give up trying to do it the "easy" way (the, normally, easy way) and try their search functions, iof iot works at all, which often have too little options to stop you being flooded with many hits, a lot of which you have to waid through, and most of which canbe irrelavent. Plus they love distributing peices of information over multiple sites, maybe with ireelavent naming, and maybe even redo them all in a years time. So if it's like that, or broken, most of the time, I try to find the Bristish version of the site, and everything is easier, the site is simple, less flashy, coherent, information, is tree structured, listed simply, and more gauranteed to work on your non windows browser, pluss faster with less flashy features to drag along. Plus the bristish sites have a tendacy to list information before the parent companies site does, and also before official release dates ;), and keep older information up longer. They seem to unbderstand that part of information revolution (not super highway pile up), a tool for convience, not something for it's own sake. The American sites are much better too, but the British sites tend to be better.

We Australians know American and British culture, and believe me for good straight forward reliable professiona/technical information I often buy British technical magazines, because they are ussually the best (with the exception of Circuite Cella Ink). In the past most of the magazines in the computer section were British, they sold more han the Australian ones.

Sorry, the issue of website design really bugs me, as it can take ten times longer to do research when done wrong resulting in many many wasted hours. The way the web is structured, and search engines, also makes it take 10 times longer again sometimes, I would like to make some submissions there too.

sorry for the LACK of info group..I am still waiting on the 64bit cards to ship..I am told 21st of this month they will have product that can be shipped...we are still playing with the 3300rgb and it looks GREAT. VERY usable and a good chip all around..we are working on cutting the CPU cycles via DirectDraw display of the data..this will help us have enough CPU left over to save 10bit 1080p files on 2 SATA 74MB/sec drives...I will not be working on the design of the camera case untill we have a working prototype in our hands for test shooting..but I hope that time is near. as always I will keep everyome posted.

This might be an oldy, but it's a goody -- miniITX computer with 8" touchscreen on a Vespa (http://www.epiacenter.com/modules.php?name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=56). Could be the model for an on-camera machine, eh?

edit: check this out, too -- http://www.littlepc.com/

$595 gets you an OEM 6.4" LCD flat-panel display (http://www.littlepc.com/lcdmonitors_oem.htm) -- the 12" option looks better, though...

- jim

Of course 80ms response time is horrible for an LCD. You're going to get some interesting ghosting artifacts with that setup.

Hadn't thought about that -- good point. I see the larger screens have 30ms, typical response time. Is that acceptable? I'm hoping to get 20-60fps max, what would the minimum response need to be at various framerates?

- jim

I believe my Mac cinema display has a response of around 20ms. So 20-30 is good territory, not that 80 is unusable, but again, there may be a bit of ghosting in your preview screen.

Just devide 1000 by the respones and if it's higher than your frame rate, your sweet (but even higher the better). 1000/30=approx 33fps.

Have beenn sailing and now back for some days, hope all had a nice Xmas and a lot new ideas for 2005. Me beeing off next wekk for another 10 days but like to be back on board soon.

Good to hear.

Sorry its my first posting here and my english writing may have many mistakes.
I'm not realy used to forums so I hope that I make every thing right and sorry if I did anything wrong if its like this let me now that i can avoid it next time thank you.

I did read in this thread and perhabs i have a solution for Editing.
I'm a Sound engeneer and have a small recording studio.
about 3 years ago we started with recording classical concerts
for DVD and we needed a video editing software for this. The problem was that we do multitrack recording for the sound we mixed it into two tracks and import it into the video editor were we had to syncronize it to the pictures. Everybody told us we have to use adope premiere but we were very unlucky with it because
bevore we can check the syncronization we had to render the project. Than we found a much cheeper but powerfull tool working in realtime. Since the last release the company implementet Hd I could'nt check it but I will try to find out more about that. (I could render uncompressed HD including 44,1hz 16 bit audio)
The software is Magix Video deluxe plus
it costs between €50 and €100 (it depends on were you buy it I payed €80) you can find more under http://www.magix.de .

Thank you jay..do you know if it's 10bit or 8bit video ?

WHOOA they are saying AVID EXPRESS PRO HD will edit 10bit HD....could this be 1080P? or only 720p?

and the codec looks alot like the SheerVIdeo one....

It ain't SheerVideo by far . . .

10-bit 220Mb/s lossy DCT (I'm assuming it's this, not wavelet like Cineform) compression at 1920x1080 is not what I call SheerVideo. But I'm sure it'll do fine for now.

Hi Obin
>>>Thank you jay..do you know if it's 10bit or 8bit video ?

I'm not sure with it but i contacted the company they will send
further informations.

I talked to a technician about editing in HD he said there are only two little aspects:

The first one is to get the video inside the editing machine if it´s on hard disc, it´s no problem.

The second aspect is the performance of your computer.

In my indi camera design I think about a one box design with exchangeable hard-discs and the capturing computer inside. So I can after recording the project take the hard-disc or the discs out of the camera and put it into the editing-computer.

Avid acts like it is more like Wavelet with "multi generation" MASTER quality support for "All your post needs"......dunno how can we find this out?

That's the one released at the IBC last year, it is more like mpeg codec, but because it is at a much higher data rate it works. David said that they need somehing like twice as much data to do the same quality, a month or two ago.

only 3 more days till we get a 64bit card ;) yummmyyy I hope they stay o schedule!!

10bit 1080p 24fps is 21MB/sec on the avid codec....bottom like this looks good enough to me...

Hi Obin,

You can use these codecs in any application that lets you export quicktime movies. The number you see beside the different DNxHD export options is the bitrate in megbits/second. e.g. 1080p/23.976 at 10-bit is 175 megabits/sec (21 megabytes/sec), 720p/23.976 at 10-bit is 90 megabits/sec (11 megabytes/sec).

I'm not specifically sure about the compression algorithm used, but I do know it is definitely not mpg. I have heard it is wavelet, but not directly from Avid. From the basic tests I've done, it is visually lossless. I haven't tried generation tests, though it is supposed to withhold it's quality through a large amount of generations. Most of the information available is on the Avid website, you'd have to talk to one of their techies to learn more.

Obin, where did you get this email from? Is this quote an email directly from AVID?

Thanks,

Jason

from a list of avid users that I posted a question on

It is DCT.Avid says it is DCT so why not believing them?

DCT at 220Mb/s sounds like a mess to me, probably somewhere inbetween HDCAM and D5 (but closer to HDCAM).

It might not be as good as cineform for multigeneration and compaction. But raw 1080p single chip is nearly 440Mb's, so that's 2:1, does it have a special bayer mode aswell?

hello everybody!

I'm new on the board and as you I'm fed up with DV. I'm a video technician who wants to make documentaries with a 720p 10 bits one single 2/3" Cmos-hd B&W home made camera. I read almost all posts and identified the issues. I still have some questions :
- There is no Bayer on mono camera indeed so will I have better sensibility (1 stop)?
- The post de-Bayer process, white-balance, color correction is not required anymore . So will I be able to edit without other post-shooting process?
- Which kind of artefacts will still be there (in B&W RAWs with a global shutter sensor) ?

Once these issues resolved I will make a portable system with a laptop broken in parts (viewfinder/pc+ one ATA 3.5" 80GB disk) and one 2/3 chip camera. I don't know what to buy yet. IBIS 5 ?

Lots of questions for a start...

BTW special thanks to Obin, Rob&Rob, Juan, Bob and Wayne.

John,
Quite an adventure you have started. If I may try to summarize what you want for a system:
720p monochrome
10 bits (internal IBIS-5A converter?)
Global shutter

For monochrome imaging, you will be concerned with the black level, gain and....anyone know if there is a different name for the gamma?

You shouldn't get a lot of artifacts in the raw images with a global shutter although you will have to do some offset and gain processing on each pixel if you want a good image with the IBIS-5A.

We will have a monochrome only 1920p camera out in awhile that might interest you - contact me off the list if it does.

Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday..

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday.. -->>>

any news Obin - 64?

filip

Obin, I know you are on hold waiting for the 64 bit card. Are you guys pretty much done other than that though? It sounds like things are about ready (software wise) for beta testing. I am gearing up to make a camera purchase in the next 1-2 months and am just wondering what your plans are. Right now you are key to being able to use these machine vision cameras for production. What are your plans for your software and do you have any idea how early you might let some of us get our greedy hands on it?

Ok - good news sorta...I got an email update on the 64bit card today. Good news is they HAVE the card on hand! bad news is they will have a bit more testing with the registry on the board - BUT it looks like this is an easy task and should take about 1-3 days..so I am still hoping they get them out this week! as much as I beat on the doors with emails and phone calls I am sure I will be one of the first with a board! things will start to heat up soon so stay posted jsut a bit longer!

Rob yes we are very close with beta software. Really waiting on the board at this time because we can't really test capture-to-disk without the board..everything else is very close and I am sure I could do some shooting in a few days if we had the CL2 64bit card...but you never know when you stick new hardware in the system..so no promise but we will do the best we can.


I WILL NOT GIVE UP.

Obin, what has been your componenet cost until now, including the forthcoming framegrabber?

good news but my machine at work is an ass and I can't post more then this..updates later today


64bit card is in UPS!@!!!

DIrectDraw is working for PREVIEW!