Regular crew, what do you think of this framegrabber:

http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_framegrabber.htm

I looked it up on the off chance it might offer a lot more for the price of the present Epix model. It has 32MB buffer, 1M FPGA that you can put user functions into, but the price is nearly $1000. Isn't that the price of the 64-bit grabbers?

Wayne.

I thought DNG was single frame, but you must mean sequence of single frames, my appologies. Well, as we are trying to do things cheap as well, it would be good to use high quality audio off the motherboard with reference sound tracks recorded in sequence with the frame (each frame follwed by the matching periode of sound). Understanding only a few main boards can record descent quality sound. It is unimportant but probably can save hundreds or thousands compared to a sepcialist recorder (then again it is one more thing to go wrong).

Wayne,
I the high end audio circles it is a NO NO to record sound on the host computer, even with an internal dedicated audio board (the A/D conversion is better to be done outside the host machine). Various sources can interfere and affect the quality. I don't say is not convenient, camcorders, do it, but the jury is still out. I stand to be corected.

This is what you need for your audio field recording :)

http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php

Actually I'm thinking of attaching one of these to the camera for "on camera" recording:

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

Hey guys,

Have you seen this CMOS camera yet? It looks like one heck of a product though it would only provide 1280x720.

I think this is probably a fairly expensive camera but since I couldn't find a price I figured I would post anyway.

http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/1m28.asp?r=0

Sorry to post again immediately. Not sure if I should have just edited my previous post or not. Feel free to do with this as you see fit mods.

I was searching randomly for CMOS and CCD cameras and I ran across a BUNCH of them that I don't think we have discussed (I may be entirely wrong about that). I have no idea what sort of prices we are talking about for these. I suppose that would require talking to the actual companies themselves as no one lists prices. Here's what I found (for what it is worth):

*Note: some of these ARE CCD cameras. I'm not entirely convinced of the superiority of CMOS.....

1mp b+w 1" CCD camera (http://www.pulnix.com/Imaging/Released/c-1040.html)
2/3" 1280x1024 CMOS camera 29fps (http://prosilica.com/products/cv1280.htm)
1" CCD 1600x1200 camera (http://www.jai.com/camera/products_info.asp/id=311&sprog=uk)
1280x1024 30fps CMOS camera (http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_lw-1.3-s-1394.htm)
1.3 mp 25fps CMOS camera (http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1455.php)
1920x1080 1" CCD 32fps camera! (http://www.adimec.com/main.php?cm=p199_14sdpc1_NibRYW9re1TzKy__2)
1504x1128 CMOS camera 1000fps max! (http://www.redlake.com/high_speed/HG100K.html)
1mp CCD camera 48fps (http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_170.php)
4mp CMOS camera 96fps! (http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_1760.php)
1.3mp CMOS camera 500fps! (http://www.baslerweb.com/produkte/produkte_en_212.php)

I'm sure a lot of these are expensive cameras but I thought I would post just in case one of them might prove useful to someone out there. What do you guys think?

Here is a 30fps version that is 12bit from Dalsa.......

http://vfm.dalsa.com/selector/prodinfo.asp?lbxProd__ID=DS-1x-01M30

Valeriu:

I have had an ninterest in computer audio systems for a few yaers (have a Envy24 based system here (but only for consumer HM). The great thing about the project is it's intended flexibility to fit a number of price ranges, that is why I mentioned the mainboard audio stuff for the real low end systems, but the idea is to use whatever fits your budget.

On quality I wrote a long post in the other "viper" thread, I think. Indeed most of the stuff that has been offered on main boards is rubbish for recording, half the descent consumer sound cards are only good for home theatre, not for recording (but maybe better than a DP150). To answer the question of which systems, I haven't kept track of motherboards, but I think there will be a couple that can top 80db (maybe even 100db) SNR A weighted (just keeping it simple for everybody here) for stereo input, that's good enough for Video and doco work, or even cheap film. As far as cards go, EMU has just pulled a nice trick, actually delivering nearly the quoted 120db SNR, I expect more cards to match that in future and external USB2.0 sound modules to eventually get there too, that is good enough for film recording (though nowhere near true 24-bit 144db, but not many recording studios would be able to record that accuratelly, let alone cinema theatre systems play it). Past that price you are probably better getting a seperate sound recording device.

Many inernal recording issues seems to have been solved since the introduction of the Lynx to reach these levels. So for the budget minded I think it is a possibility (though for cinema production I personally would prefer something that accurately recorded the 48Khz, 16/18 bit format, which means at the very least 96db SNR and other good specs). Of course some external conditioning/balancing might be needed on MB ports.

Nice recording links. I liked that Core PDA device, I don't have time to read it all, but there doesn't seem to be any stats, benhmarks, or other audio analysis with it. It will be interesting to see how well it performs eventually. But for this whole project the one downfall has allways been professional external controlls for cameras, let alone sound recording.

Aarron thanks for the camera links, though I won't be able to get through them before leaving. The first dalsa one is a 1024*1024 camera, Sony has something simular for around $1500, probably because it doesn't match up with 720p spec.

The problem is that many people have stopped discussing new cameras/manufacturers a while ago. A number have been posted that have been ignored. This has happened on a number of issues, and people have got stuck in the mud, with present systems (that's really all we can do for the moment while the software is beta'd on one manufacturers cameras). But I think it is time that we did look at, and list on a web site, all the options, maybe in a new thread, or the technical thread, maybe with pricing. We have the wiki, if Rob S would like to allow people to link all suitable cameras on a special wiki page that could be done. This could be done with all hardware issues, I personally have many links in my book mark of things people have posted, and that is not even all of them.

If anybody would like to look into doing it, the technical thread is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28781

If you go to machinevision online they have a database of cameralink (including cameralink USB/Gige) products, if you go to the frame grabber companies (like Epix) they have a list of camera companies that use there framegrabbers.

I think the reason that we're "stuck" with one sensor is that among these industrial camera manufacturers, the Altasens is the only chip that was designed from the ground up as a professional HD camera chip, and is being incorporated in many high-priced professional HD camera systems, including those from Ikegami, JVC, and Kinetta.

its also the reason its so expensive :(

Something I couldn't find - or maybe I overlooked it, what lens mount can we expect to find on the 2/3" industrial camera's with the Altasense chip?

Although I guess that when you put together a system with that particular sensor, you'd be able to budget for an adapter to PL mount or ARRI Mount...

Bar3nd

I have been sick. sorry for not talking much..

I am now starting to think about going with 8bit because of the issues with display rate and datarate with 10-12bit files and the problems with editing ...I do have a new version of CineLInk that is working much better but I have not had time to test as I was sick ;( ..in the next few days expect some updates !

I have a problem..I need a board that has AGP on it because the onboard video from the ITX and micro boards WILL NOT WORK..I used one. it sucked bad.

ideas / links gang?

When is this Altasens 3560 CMOS do to be released?

Is the Altasens ProCamHD 2560 released or is it going to come out when the 3560 is released.


Looking at the specs at both Altasens chips chips below.......

If one was to stick with 720P, wouldn't the ProCamHD 2560 be just fine?

Also 2560 is at a lower cost I would think too?

----------------------------------------
ProCamHD 3560 - 2/3", 1936 x 1086 pixel high speed, low noise and low power iSoC for high definition TV cameras


ProCamHD 2560 - 1/2", 1280 x 1024 pixel with ProCamHD's performance advantages PLUS interoperability between HDTV, analog TV (NTSC/PAL) and SXGA resolution.

Obin, what board did you use?

Those 855GME boards are using AGP, it's just using an on-board chip.

Why all the problems when a Pentium M at 2.0Ghz is a very fast chip?

This all seems very confusing.

Finally, what API are you using for display? OpenGL, DirectX, directly to the framebuffer?

some directx and some framebuffer

board I used was a fullsized atx board with built in video display like the micro boards have..it sucked BAD very poor performance...

Can you give me processor and chipset specs? That would help out a lot since there are so many ATX boards out there.

What are the prices on the Altasens chips? I can't seem to find that in the mass of posts.

Also, why are the altasens chips considered to be so great? Do we have any tests? What is the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range?

Obin Olson what camera did you capture these with images with.

Obin, I just figured out it's your footage that we had put on a movie theater screen here in OC,ca. When I got the clips I never knew who posted them etc. Now I do. Your clips looked amazing on a 30 to 40ft screen considering the were just samples.


Test Shots from Obin Olson:
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test1.jpg
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test2.jpg
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test3.jpg
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test4.jpg
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test5.jpg
http://dv3productions.com/test_images/test6.jpg

I'm not sure about the chips themselves, but for the cameras based on these chips, expect to pay around $4-6K.

What did you show them on? a Projector? 35mm film?
does it look as good as the Panasonic VariCam on the big screen?

please tell!!

Hey Obin,

You wouldn't mind telling us what the integrated chipset you were using was, would you?

I know you're saying the small boards are no good, but I'm really curious to know what the specs on the board you were using was, as I would like to avoid it too.

There are too many integrated chipsets out there to simply say that "such and such is always bad". Knowing the processors and chipset would be a huge help in finding out just what is needed performance-wise for these devices.

Thanks.

well it did say SIS on it ..not sure what chipset I will look and see if I can find a box

BTW the 3300 has MUCH better colors then the IBIS5 chip ...wait till we get this thing going ;)

Looks like CIneLink is working now..maybe..so far testing tonight is good..good framerates and it looks like we are saving on 2 disk drives 10bit raw files..I have trouble opening the raw files..working on that now...

Obin:

How is the best way for convert the footage .raw that you have posted?

Thanks

I would put a .DNG header on them. Then you can demosaic them in photoshop.

of course, how is everybody doing their RAW files, little endian or big endian?

the TIFF spec says that any bit depth that's not 8 or 16-bit has to be big-endian for the way the bits are packed. The file itself can be little endian, but the image bits must be big endian.

If that's the case, then simply putting a .DNG header on a RAW file isn't going to do much good.

Wayne,
Thanks for the reply regarding the audio. I think that this issue should go on a different thread, as some working cameras are pretty much out there. Speaking about A/D converters I found a standalone converter box (http://www.audiencedp.com/External.htm) (look at ST/SB ADC/Digital IN/OUT although th DI2000 has higher end features) that can be part of the modular camera concept.

Jason: Rob S. and myself are using Motorola order for the IHD
files. So that would be little or big (I get confused on those things)?

I guess little is Motorola and Big is IBM.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : I would put a .DNG header on them. Then you can demosaic them in photoshop. -->>>

I am sorry but i have not understand!
Can you tell me the softwere for see that raw file posted by Obin?

(i have understand photoshop for the second step,but for the first step?)

Best regards

first of all: GUI Why ?

hold on http://www.handykey.com/

the old one twidler 1. I've worked for years. I've been on the
wearhead group from Steve Man for years. It is araound very
cheap. There is even a smaller one I lost the name. They are
called chord keys. you have to train a bit but they do everything
a decend keyboard plus mouse can do it works with Windows
and Linux.

Dreaming a LCD attached to the camarabody and Steve Nordauser
application running there

Eeen more strange and back to the roots as Vance is anywhere
member of this board a mechanical shutter. we are free to have
a camera with the best Chip the fastest readout and free from
any shutter problem.

As we are not Arri nor Kreines back to the roots using a 16 or
whatever camerabody optical Viewfinder, voila we want to see
what the lens it giving us...

anyway and the deja posted SBC with a SATA array or an array of
firewire diskdrives Kreines uses the ipod disk'sit is not so far away

ronald

real time programmer, no Gui only hexcode, freelance Camaraman, 3d nerd

<<<-- Originally posted by Valeriu Campan : Wayne,
Thanks for the reply regarding the audio. I think that this issue should go on a different thread-->>>

Not really an issue just chioces, but I did set up the technical thread for people to discuss hardware developement issues, to keep the clutter off this thread.JasonJason, yes I know, just illustrating for new people the reasons why people don't try to find better/cheaper industrial cameras, for example, cheaper IBIS5 cameras with better AD convertors.(irritated side note:)
These spyware lunatics annoy me, I wish they would stop putting it on my system, the key strokes get a second or two behind (gets a bit obviouse), the stupid people don't realise that I run other systems for the important stuff.

please take a look, looks cool
http://www.wearable.ethz.ch/qbic.0.html

well not fat enough but I know the sond fom CCD's, CMOs"
wait 6 month's and than again

Steve and others:

I too think it is a real shame that the Micron 1.3Mpixel didn't work out because of the smear etc, the images did look nice otherwise. Steve is there any really cheap sensor on the horizon that can produce pictures like these without the problems?

I have been researching the Samsung sensors and Smal sensors, but because of the protracted sickness, other commitments and the trip I'm about to go on I haven't got sepcific specs/details enough to decide. But I might as well tell all, the cheap still camera sensors they have included a kit with lossless compression engine, USB2.0, and memory card (not that that helps). Even though the public specs say different, when you put together the data rate etc, the sensors should be able to do 720p, but the sensors maybe programmed not to do that as they are meant for cheap still cameras (under $100 and up). They have a pixel resetting scheme (like dual slope) for very wide range. I can't remember if there was a global shutter, but maybe. I posted links to some pictures on the technical thread a while back. I don't know for cinema, but definitely something for cheap value HD video/doco. So as you can see they would be a better option than the IBIS5 or Micron 1.3MP. Don't flame me just have a look at the smal site (dev kits).

If any engineering person would like to look into it developing it, just send me a post on the technical thread so I can email you.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese :real time programmer, no Gui only hexcode, freelance Camaraman, 3d nerd -->>>

;)
pity not too many people can see the use of that than C not the use of it ;)

Do you use menuetos?

http://www.menuetos.org/

(Statement: have never used menuetos, and have never read it's doc's, as I am developing my own, but know of it's existence).

Wayne: I'm disappointed you can't read hex codes (in realtime).
Would make for such an artfull display <g>

Rob, don't be dissapionted, if they can read Matrix code
in the movies, surely you can read hex codes ;)

Wayne, I went to their website and banged around the sensors a bit. The largest 1.3MPix is still only 1/3" If you do that, you might as well take a known clean sensor like the Micron 3.2Mpix (no smearing, 1/2") and window it down to 720p. We have that now - Obin is working with it. The Micron 1.3Mpix advantage is the larger pixel size (more sensitive, shallower DOF).

....please!!

help me to understand the best way to convert and see the .raw clip posted by Obin.


<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : I would put a .DNG header on them. Then you can demosaic them in photoshop. -->>>

I am sorry but i have not understand!
Can you tell me the softwere for see that raw file posted by Obin?

(i have understand photoshop for the second step,but for the first step?)

Best regards


Gabriele

Obin, you had mentioned going back down to 8-bit because 12-bit was causing too many headaches. Are you still thinking about doing that, or are you going to go ahead with the Altasens chip at 12-bit. Is the 3300 of a high enough quality to shoot a good picture with?

have you guys consider this cmos: http://www.foveon.com/prod_f7.html

foveon 10.2 mp that at 25 fs I think it will work at 1080
but not shure, rolling shutter.and 1 inch would be yust great.

thanks

Dear Marto

since 2000 I'm on the route to HD no kidding that's the best forum
here. My backgroung is realtime analysis, picture analysis in Automation
astro physics and for living and DOD, stooped all 2003

look down the page for this beauty of chip 25p they do with a
resolution rediculus low like all the Kodak etc in photo apparatus.
I do guess it's pure politics to protect Dalsa Sony Viper and all

imaging reall DOF real HD for the Indi....film only Signma is using
this chip people on the street reading 3.4 MB pixel rubbish !!

they don't understand these technic at all they don't read 3.4 MB
x 3 for RGB that's not bad at all that's no bayer at all that's quite a
bit like real film works fantastic

Why take a NikoCanoMio etc 8Mb Bayer that means nothing at all
so Sigma is telling the truth and the rest is not lying at all that's
the problem it's only waiting for the next chip, waiting waiting
and time passes by waiting for next year

an open real recorder was working for 40 years and now? DAT
oh no Minidisc oh no A Nagra was running with less power than
most laptops oh yes

in astro/physicc they do it use multiple chip's Imaging to use 4
Faveon RGB is all on one chip no focal problem no need to de-
bayer AND a mechanical shutter there are A/D and all already
for each quart of resuoution out there we have to use something
like a master clock to sync the whole system

pump it out to a backpack of I'Pod disks good old viefinder chep
optics from 35 mm Signa optics are chep and not bad at all so we
can use 35 optics some years old pure mechanic maybe

do nothing at all pump it in...a PC, Linux. Apple orwhat else
change the array mechanical like the next film roll Camarawork is
not lunatic a small SUV ist most time only some passes away

I'm gorilla cameraman, after that electronic nuts,that's my order
doing the best picture why not

ronald

Dear Wayne that was a good one well I've heard about lost the
direction a bit was engaged with Linux but happy to see it again

I do guess all what I do need is to write data to an disk array
nothing else shutter mechanic, as Vance told us lenses mechanic
keep it simple first only sync the whole and change the arryay
to a fresh one

dektop graphics machine in a SUV, Van, Volkswagen-bus sbaop
the array in Cinarella on Linux is not bad free and HD ready !!
even Hollywood knows abaout Film Gimp free not bad at all some others else

so what ?

God day again: http://new.dpnow.com/1160.html

please scroll down and look what they call porros viewfinder
amazing no penta-prism anymore so what about ?

multiple chips with an mirror setup cutting the incoming image in
quarts. a bit overlap maybe could all scroped and even geometry
treated by a simple batch procedure

on the host PC where the disk array snapps in mechanical shutter
you know my personal fetish

Thank you Vance !!

pump it on disks why not maybe I got wild but tell me what's so
wrong with it The beauty with Faeon no bayer artifacts or If you
like take 4 Micron and do this look get the "biggest Pixel" best
light with 4 CCD good low light.... it's only an idea mirrors cutting
down the image in 4 quarts

have nothing found beside astro-physics and so on

Ronald! Snap out of it!
Please don't put every single word on a new line. Stay away from the return key!

(MODERATOR NOTE: Ronalds posts where edited for better
readability, so Barend's comments above no longer apply)

Apart from that - I'm trying to make sense out of your posts... Lining up the chips on the prism so you can use 4 chips to make one picture is a pretty tough job. If you plan on resizing and perspective correcting the different outputs from the 3 chips to line up you'll lose resolution right there - by resampling the image. Sounds like a lot of hassle for a limited gain.

In theory it could be done, but to be honest, if I see what people can push out of an IBIS chip, i feel a single Altasense would return great pictures with a lot less hassle. To make these DIY camera's work, they need to be technically straightforward. Preferrably without groundglasses or prisms. A prism for the viewfinder would be an idea, although a videou output on the camera would be great also.

Bar3nd

Hm first if you don't like my writing ok I'm cameraman, graphics
artist and realtime nerd. I do like to write in short lines Times does
it it's easy to read on any monitor.

I've not talked of any prism at all Mirros thats easy, cheap and ??
nothing has to be done in the camara. only pump it on a disk array
with 35mm nothing was done in the camera that was ok

Why to have a replay.

As I told you Film is not lunatic a Van Motorhome is never far away.
There a batch procedure is run stiching the pichtures and so on
15 minutes or 8 that's ok keep the camera simple that's film

Light is coming trough the lens an optical Viewfinder will show all
you can put any lens on Kreins thinks a bit so going on Ibis5A
the factory was sold october going on Altasens ok but next year
the chip will change and so every year

well the pictures it does are pritty good did not thought it's only
an Ibis5a Altasens thread

maybe posted a zillion times who knows about:
http://www.panavisionsvi.com/imagers_Quad.htm

from the page
The sensor integrates all timing and signal buffering on chip. Video is output via 8 analog outputs each with programmable gain and offset.

p.s. ok will do but if not at home I've to read on my palm-top and
so it'smore easy, imagine to read the NY TIMES with no columns
just do this. Is crolling down the screen so painfull only to know
about? ronald

Ronald:
http://www.machinevisiononline.org/public/articles/archivedetails.cfm?id=1056

Originally developed by Photon Vision Systems. Got an early design-in with the JVC camera.

Last time I checked, the entry into a design with this sensor was extremely high, sensor costs were very high ($30K)??.

Of course, I haven't looked in a year or more. Very sweet - you can do quadlets and still have HD so it is more like a 3 sensor camera.

Dear Steve, merci.

I'm subriber of the online version, but sometimes, SMPTE, Millimeter,Braodcast news and so on igoes to the !! bin and sit's there.

An old one: http://www.urbanfox.tv/articles/cameras/c19joedunton.htm

The pic is showing Obin's idea, an Arri S16 and the back attached.
You know best a decend HD viewfinder is out of price range, an LCD nice, if there is sun only pain.
go there http://www.kinetta.com/home.php

Ok Kreines is what Ballhaus is for me, sorry me born Berlin, grew up elsewere 11 times moved due to dad's profession, he is a real hardcore cameraman. For this cam lenses you can find on the market, pl mount Angenieux is out there as well as S16 sometimes very cheap, it's not prime Digi Zeiss but ...

i'll still think only to write picture son disk, Kreines uses the I-Pod disks, Toshiba 2.5", 1.8" are there. 20 Minutes or 30 not more an small array will do. All processing could be done, some meters, as I wrote- film is not on the dark side of the moon, and if it is not top secret, set, a Van is only some meters away, like live recording. There the arry snaps in, the pictures are copied on SCSI or SATA arrays ond voila you do need at least two I-pod array's no rocket sience, sorry.

Next one, on http://www.joedunton.co.uk/ a bit strange the page click on "news archive" and then on may 03 look here (pdf format) drink a cup of tea and read on it's mainly Ikegami stuff 2 CCD .

Why a S16 Camera Body the ergonomics a cameraman is used to, the baseplate, the Kompendium anything is there. I thing of a DIY Steadycam rig, there a decent TFT monitor would make sense it's a bit cyborg like but walkable as a 35 mm with an staedycam rig is usual but no easy job at all.

ronald

p.s. I'm sitting in a coffe shop writing an a tiny display, I do hope you can read and there are not only typo's

G'day, hi all my edmond optics catalog tells me on page 56 about a Rhomboid Prism doing nothing else as displacing an image or the input beam. Ok A stack of two right hand and left to it a stack of two inverted would give us 1/4 image displaced from the optical center just out of the focal plan. That could be the low budged quad sensor.

Crazy,-- we would have native 35m format, native 35 DOf.

With a russian 35 mm camara body..cool, the indie viper. Maybe here somebody is crazy enough to think off. It's not cheap at all,but cheaper as any HDcam in the 35mm format, well it's bayer coded, but,with a decend optic could be fantastic. Mechanical shutter, I'm still Vance devoted, a master clock and anyway coded, write it on the so called 2.5" Toshiba disk array.

Think of a typical set, not a lunatic one, there is a car, a break, somthing near. There the arry goes, and in let's say some minutes the images are stiched together and can be shown. thats light fast compared to real S16 or 35mm processing.

ronald