Oh sure, that should be plenty of power. A 2Ghz Pentium M is almost as fast as a 3.0Ghz P4 desktop chip. Actually Intel has dumped the Netburst architecture in the P4 (Tejas), and will be building all future cores of the P4 (or P5) on the Pentium M core. The only thing that the Pentium M has deficiencies in is that the chipset doesn't run as fast as the dual DDR at 800Mhz front-side bus stuff that the desktop P4's run at, so you're memory bandwidth is reduced a bit. But as far as general number crunching, these chips are quite a haus.

Check out this thread:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=28&threadid=1396203&enterthread=y

good..BTW I tested the 3300rgb and the preview looked great 1080x1920 1/4 quad..we now have the same problem we had with preview when I try and record data...dropped frames and slow preview framerate..fixing that...once that is done I will start to move forward with camera design!

I just found out that the new Epix framegrabber is going to be PCI 64bit NOT pci-x 64bit...anyone know of a micro main board that has a PCI 64bit connector NOT pci-x?? I can't find any ;(

my bad I just called axiomtek.com and they tell me it WILL work with a standard pci 64bit card ;)

UPDATE:

I will be testing new code today that should speed things up on the capture/disk write end....will keep everyone posted

4 weeks untill the 64bit card comes out..should be jsut about the right amount of time for final code writing ..I hope ;)

Scott how is your capture/convert app doing?

Be carefull, PCI-X is one thing and PCI-Express is another one.
If that was the case when you said pci-x (express?).

Yes, PCI-X is a 64-bit/66Mhz-133Mhz slot

PCI-Express or PCIe is an entirely different beast.

PCI 64 is what I will be using. THat is what the Epix 64 board will be standard PCI with a 64bit 66mhz slot

If it is 64bit/66MHZ it is PCI-X then.

not what they are telling me - they say it's a standard PCI card that is 64bit...

can someone clear this up?

Well, now I'm really lost.
It seems you are right Obin.There is 64 bit/66 MHZ support in the PCI 2.3 specs.
And the same and up for PCI-X which is a different protocol...

There are many versions of PCI, even PCI.org (I think that's it) the standards organisation diesn't list them all, there is even serial PCI. A right mess. I suggest that you contact their tech support (speak to somebody different ussually gets the answer) and if you get a junior that doesn't know, ask for a manager. Try to get the data sheets.

There is a 66Mhz version of standard PCI, I'm not sure of a 64bit version. I think there was a competitor to PCI-X. So it is best to google for an interface article (or go to Byte, Toms, Extremetech and anandtech). If your lucky PCI-X is backwards compatable with normal PCI64 and you can run it slower. Steve might know.


Rob.S

I have been extremely sicker (than normal) for the last 2-4 weeks and well behind and still feeling a bit sick sitting in front of the computer, so Rob hopefully I can get back to you in comming weeks about your request.


I saw an interesting (funny) site in New Scientist:

www.justfuckinggoogleit.com

Not having a go at anyone, but share it around.

What they fail to appreciatre is "why would I spend ... 6 hours googling it, when I can ask you in 15 seconds.com" (I should register that one, and sell googling services ;).

Yes, PCI-X is backwards compatible, it only slows the clock down on the slot (and you have to have a slot that is 3.3V compatable-I think; at least that's the way it is on the new G5's)

So the PCI-X slot will accept older cards at the right voltage? But wil PCI-X cards work in the older 64-bit slots at a lower speed? I think that would solve all the problems.

The gospel that I was told by frame grabber companies (may be outdated) was that you can always put a 32 bit card in a 64 bit slot (providing the voltages are correct (3.3 vs 5) but it will slow the whole PCI bus down to 32 bit. The same is true for clock frequency. There are some odd combinations - EDT makes a grabber that is 32 bit 66MHz. Most of the high performance ones are 64 bit/66MHz. The Matrox Helios is 64 bit/133MHz.

Something I would be interested in finding out more about is that the newest Intel chipsets seem to keep everything off the PCI bus but peripherals. You can have gigabit ethernet, 4 channel RAID and now PCI-e (express) and still never touch the PCI bus. Most of the time, for recording or real-time processing of video, the bus becomes an issue. Even on PCI-64/66 the Altasens can do it in very quickly.

we have completed our movie camera.

It shoot 720p / 24fps (global shutter) uncompressed to HDD and the CMOS pictures are amazingly. It looks like film, not like video.

With special optical solutions the DOF is near 35mm (lets say like 27mm)

The camera case have a build in rod support and the camera head (lens+sensor+servo drive for focus and up to 4 axis cranes) can removed from the body to work on steadi-cam or cranes. The connection is only a thinly firewire cable, and the distance can be up to 10m

This days a new firewire definition came out. This will be the solution for our next 1080p camera

Rai, this sounds very good! But you understand we'd like to have some more details... What chip did you use? What software and hardware are you using for capturing to disk? Any pictures of the casing?

Barend

Sounds great.
What chip was used?
How long did the whole setup take?
What was the cost of the project?
What is you're NLE editing path?
What lens mount?
Any chance of frame grabs, footage?
Would you be interested in building two more units for private sale in the uk?

I work for a production company in the uk looking to invest in its own equipment, having just secured financing from a company in Dubai. Please get in contact asap. either email me or reply on the forum.

adrianwhite@hotmail.com

To Steve Nordhauser :

Hello Steve, Do u have a release date for the 1920HD.
I didn't find it on your web site.

I think, I will order you this one and the dev kit.

Regards,

Flax,
The reason we are not putting much on the web site is that although the camera is real, the big box of sensors we have ordered is not real yet. I will let everyone know when it shows up.

Thank you Steve for your answer

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : we have completed our movie camera. -->>>

The 23. this mounth, is THE day. On this day the shoots start for a big cinema fantasy movie.

Till them, we have a web side with all infos.

What is the website's address?

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : we have completed our movie camera.

It shoot 720p / 24fps (global shutter) uncompressed to HDD and the CMOS pictures are amazingly. It looks like film, not like video. -->>>

Well Rai, congradulations on finally finishing that camera, I'd like to see the website myself, and see what brand camera components you used. I have seen your 35mm site, is it the same? This new firewire defintion, is that 800Mb/s version B or 1.6Gb/s version?

Thanks

Wayne.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : The gospel that I was told by frame grabber companies (may be outdated) was that you can always put a 32 bit card in a 64 bit slot (providing the voltages are correct (3.3 vs 5) but it will slow the whole PCI bus down to 32 bit. The same is true for clock frequency. -->>>

Thanks, I'll remember that, a 64bit slot is not one less 32bit slot. Would you know the cross compatability betyween the two versions (at least) of 64-bit PCI. I understand there was an older one before PCI-X in competition, or is there only one now? There is a bit of confusion as to what version the mainboard above has.

I know your piont about keeping device traffic off the PCI bus, very usefull for transactions and bandwidth.

Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne,
...no its will be a different web site, please wait a few days.

The new firewire. The only think i know from our electronic engeneers is: It will work with a 1080p /24fps camera.

I have found a chip made by Analog Devices, ADV202 that can encode realtime Motion Jpeg2000:

Complete single-chip JPEG2000 compression and decompression solution for video and still images
Programmable tile/image size with widths up to 2048 pixels in 3-component 4:2:2 interleaved mode, and up to 4096 pixels in single-component mode
Maximum tile/image height: 4096 pixels
Video interface directly supporting ITU.R-BT656, SMPTE125M PAL/ NTSC, SMPTE274M, SMPTE293M (525p), ITU.R-BT1358 (625p) or any video format with a maximum input rate of 65 MSPS for irreversible mode or 40 MSPS for reversible mode
Two or more ADV202s can be combined to support full-frame SMPTE274M HDTV (1080i) or SMPTE296M (720p)

the link is:
http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,765_810_ADV202%2C00.html

If this chip would be on the camera or the frame grabber, then all of the storage problems would be gone....

Regards,
Alex

looking forward to the new website.

Me too.

Rai, is this a camera design you plan on manufacturing and selling yourself?

And it costs 39$ per chip

People have been discussing these chips some time ago. Some people want to do FPGA instead. Without getting into the details of these chips the issues are. Where ever it has the power to compress it and can compress the right format in the right way. The format we are using for the moment is bayer single chip (different from normal single chip) 4:4:4, lossless compression (and whatever else we can add on latter). I this chip can do that then your in business. The other thing is price, putting this on a board could double the cost and finale price might be five times that. So if somebody does this it is fine.

Sumix is developing a compressed camera (and I'm sure there are others) for us, and Silicon Imaging intends to when a suitable FPGA becomes available. I am actually researching a cheap sensor (nice performance) that includes a lossless compression engine. The price maybe less than $100 all up per complete camera head with lossless compression (say $200 more realistically). But at the moment I think there maybe some artifical restriction. I am doing this quietly to see if I can get around the problems without certain parties blocking the initiative. But I have to get time in to do it properly.

Hey guys,

Talked to a sales rep at Epix today, and he said that the 64-bit framegrabber probably won't be shipping till sometime in January or February.

BTW, is Epix really the best board for us to be using? I've been looking at EDT's offerings and those look pretty good too. Right now their cameralink cards run at 32-bit/66Mhz for a total of 240MB/s, twice as much as the 32-bit/33Mhz cards.

I guess the only thing is if I use their cards I'm going to have to find a programmer for a custom capture app. Oh well . . .

Jason Rodriguez wrote:
Talked to a sales rep at Epix today, and he said that the 64-bit framegrabber probably won't be shipping till sometime in January or February.Yuck!
I've been looking at EDT's offerings and those look pretty good too. Right now their cameralink cards run at 32-bit/66Mhz for a total of 240MB/s, twice as much as the 32-bit/33Mhz cards.I wonder how well they will support the SI cameras. Perhaps Steve can fill us in.

There are a lot of high speed cameralink cards on the marked. Some work with the 500fps MBit cameras. This datarate is more than we ever need.

I do not anderstand why people wait for epix. Support different cards are not a big problem.

I do not anderstand why people wait for epix. Support different cards are not a big problem.I just haven't worked with other cards, yet, Rai, so I don't (yet) understand the compatibility issues. Naturally, having to support multiple APIs (one for each card manufacturer) would be a pain too, but not insurmountable as long as the cameras are supported well enough.

Rai, you claim certain things in this thread (like to have a working
camera and that cards are not a problem). Please back up both
things with facts. If there are lots of cards as you say (we haven't
been able to find a lot) then do give us links.

Why do we need to wait on this website to get some specifics on
your "finished" camera? It should be simple to at least tell us which
chip you are using and which software.

wow I go away for a few days and someone comes out and says they "have a working Cinema camera"?? this is just AMAZING!! let me see some proof.

Give the guy a break Rob, he's said hardly anything here, and given a time frame before he can present something. He's also been here for months. With any commercial product things go unmentioned till the time is right, we didn't jump on Steve when his camera was delayed (though people did jump on Sumix), patience and time will see. He has been busy doing the 35mm adaptor stuff in other threads and publishing links toi that.

Wayne: I have no problems with his 35mm adapter stuff, since I
have done my research and seen him talk about that.

The points you mention are the exact things I have an "issue"
with, like:

"he's said hardly anything here"

Rai has not indicated (since announcing his information) anything
about a commercial venture. He has just claimed he has something
which works. When asked for some more details he says to wait
for the website. So this indicates he is willing to tell something
but not now? Why? We are not asking for much. And it is easy
information to give. Now it just feels like someone who wants
to show off or is not telling the truth.

Since we all have been working for months and months on such
a system I have trouble with people who just come out and say
they have a working system without introducing some sort of
proof to this claim. He asked for our help en July and then he
vanished (in regards to this project) until this announcement.

I'm wondering what the added value to this thread is to say you
have a camera but not give any more details. It tells us NOTHING.
It is easy to say things on a webboard. We all know how difficult
it is to get a full blown workable system.

The other gripe was with the cards. He claims there are a lot of
cards. That's fine, show us the links. I'm interested in these cards
and with the information he has provided it doesn't help me in
any way to locate these "other" cards.

Thank you Rob ;)

Rai, show me some proof.

Rob L.: Sorry, mounths ago i had asked for help. i also emailed directly to you, because Netherland is only a few miles from me , but till now i got no answer from you. So please way a little bit.
In the meantime I had a few very nice and helpful contacts with people very much further away (They also know a few things more about our camera...). I like to thank for this, and i will also do my best to help this people. But till next week i am outside at locations, because we have to prepare much other things for the movie.

Here some cameralink framegrabbers:

this, i know, work with a high speed 500fps camera, incl. software development kit:

http://www.activesilicon.co.uk/pdfs/phxbrochureus.pdf
http://www.datatranslation.com/products_hardware/prod_dt3145.htm
http://www.datacube.com/Product/Datasheets/Hardware/CameraLinkFPGAprocessor.htm
http://www.matrox.com/imaging/products/product_selector/ans_full.cfm

more comaralink:
http://www.euresys.com
http://www.ids-imaging.com
http://www.ioindustries.com
http://www.plda.com/pdt_fg.htm
http://www.silicon-software.com

Some of this companys will send a card (for a week or two) free of charge, if you say it is for a new camera(software).

I know all this but the hard part is software..did you have someone make you a working interface for shooting with?

how is it? what CMOS did you use? what is your bit depth? what is your saved files? raw? what?

I still need proof.

Thank you for the links Rai. I either have missed your e-mail due
to much moderating work here at DVInfo or it was never received
by me. If it is the former I do appologize for not getting back to you.

I in no way wanted to insult you or say you didn't have what you
claim you have, but this is a webboard, anybody can say anything
you like. I'm just a bit skeptical of claims without any backing,
that's all. I hope you understand.

We all still would like to hear what you used to built your camera.

Close to which part of Holland are you situated? North, middle
or south? Perhaps I can visit and check your camera out sometime.

OK Rob.

I have sent emails to you and not received a reply myself, so I don't send emails and get on with what I can do (which is way too much with the number of other projects log jammed here).

The guy excitedly preanounces he has finsihed working camera and websirte is coming in a few days, that is not too long to ask (even weeks). I can take a guess that he is probably very busy, and the nature of the business (like many businesses that ussually are bigger than individuals) might not allow for much of a preannouncement (very common in the real world). You can veiw his absense as a plus, he's obviously been busy making it instead of bugging us for help months on end. Got to respect that.

Sure any new camera is a threat etc, we could sit here and demand a tell all from all other manufacturers. I haven't yet seen anybody else's capture software posted for demo/sale. How quickly can the software be done depends on the programmers, some are ten times quicker, and I'm sure RobS will tell you that if he had to do it again with all the skills he's learned he would do it much quicker.

Now I've submitted information about cards, cameras, the cameralink homepage that has a database of these, before, and not much attention was paid.

Sorry, but I think it is just too harsh a way to treat someone, especially when somebody intends to drop a golden goose in our laps (and it doesn't matter if it is a small one, I rathered have three gooses in my lap than one). It is a matter of wait and see, and as Rai commited to a few days he should deliver that (a few days is ussually upto 3 days in english), and even if it is delayed not more than a few weeks

Now onto my $200 camera unit investigation, I am at a preliminary stage and there has been a hitch. It does require a professional approach (business and engineering sense), but things have come up since last week and I don't have the time to do it propperly, let alone programming testing and development, and I have to do other stuff. I might have to take an extended technical leave shortly (no more research).. So I might have to throw it open to somebody else volunteering to do it instead in a lightly collaborative effort. It is still a community initative, but also open to a commercial venture. I would not get your hopes up because it is nothing concrete as there is insufficient "public" data, and the company is not interested in our market, so it requires the right approach to get it out of them. I will have to consider what to do over the next week.

I appologize to you as well Wayne if you haven't received a reply,
sorry about that.

It looks like we will not agree on this, and that's fine. I'm not sure
why a new camera would be a threat. I welcome Rai and his new
camera.

I'm wondering why you keep talking about a "business". I have
not seen Rai talking about a business or commercial effort other
than that his new camera will be used to shoot a movie with.

regarding Rai's help on the mini35 -

Rai has consistently offered highly technical information about the building of the Mini35.

With this, he has also given us detailed drawings on making the mini 35, which is even being used by some, to build the product and come back here to sell it to members .

I am extremely grateful for all Rai's help in building mini35, and look forward to his new camera design.

That's great to hear Richard, thanks!

BTW guys,

Biggest concern here that nobody seems to be addressing, and that's the issue of sound-sync.

Rai, is your camera sound-sync, or does it go out-of-sync when recording for longer periods?

Jason: that is a good point. Are you talking about recording sound
with an external device and then synching that up, or do you think
the camera records sound as well? I would suspect it is the former.

The former. And I think we MUST test that out and see what the problems are, or else we're going to have big problems with our cameras basically not being well-suited for production.

BTW, the "external" recording device can be a DV camera.

Maybe a good assumption, there are a few groups here who intend on selling.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : I appologize to you as well Wayne if you haven't received a reply,
sorry about that.

It looks like we will not agree on this, and that's fine. I'm not sure
why a new camera would be a threat. I welcome Rai and his new
camera.

I'm wondering why you keep talking about a "business". I have
not seen Rai talking about a business or commercial effort other
than that his new camera will be used to shoot a movie with. -->>>

does anyone know of a good microatx board that has AGP and PCI or pci-x? I have to buy a board for testing with a Mobile chip on it..without this I will have no idea how well CineLink will function on a Mobile chip ;) ideas group?

BTW the tiny motherboards with on-board video will NOT work..I have tested with onboard, it's is much too slow.We need an AGP slot for video..I have never seen a micro board with agp..anyone have some info for that?