ben,
i beg of you to post a short video clip with some panning so that i can see how bad the strobbing is. obin also had problems with his camera where the bottom of the image would have to 'catch up' to the top of the image and you'd get a smearing of the image...

Okay -- here you go. (http://www.bensyverson.com/hd/movies/panning.mov) This was taken at 24mhz, so the effect is greatest. If you shoot at 40mhz, there seems to be much less of this effect.

- ben

Edit: in that first pan, I'm tilting the camera a little bit I think -- this was handheld. You can get the best sense of the effect by looking at when I go back + forth -- that "skew" is what we're talking about.

Personally, it doesn't really bother me, but there is absolutely no pleasing some people on this board.

Pan quicker. I felt like I was in Bourne Supremacy for a second.

You can get a sense of it from that clip.

thanks for the clip.

could you do one at 40mhz so i can see the camera at its best.

thanks.

We have to resolve a software issue before I do 40mhz -- right now you can only capture at full frame rate in video mode.

I thought that the IBIS5 chip is NOT rolling shutter Ben??

Ben how hard do you have to push that thing in post to get ok colors from it?

Obin, the IBIS5 is rolling shutter, although it supports global shutter for single frame operation. Or maybe that's just how the Sumix software works.

You don't have to push very hard to get good colors -- just multiply the chroma channels by 2. However, 8bit doesn't quite have enough information to let you do that without banding. Even 9 bit (twice as many values) would take care of the problem, so any form of 10 bit (log, linear) will be great.

- ben

Don't know if anyone find this interesting, but it's fun to have for comparison:

Here is a Raw Filmstream Viper frame from Cinematography.net.
It's a 16 bit .PSD file, with a Raw uncorrected layer and a seperate color-correction adjustment layer. You need Photoshop CS to Open it....

www.andersholck.com/media/viper.psd.zip

@ Wayne

Cheer up! :) dont lose heart, your hard work is very much appreciated,

I would love to help, but i dont have anything to contribute thus far, if i do have anything i will, without doubt helpout.

I remember you saying earlier about Batteries/ power supplies, well the Best/ cheapest option IMHO is the electroyava super poymer litium Ion (can run a laptop full blast for well over 18 hours*)


*if memory serves me right! so dont qoute me!! :)

i'll post the link again if you want, just gimme a shout

Cheers & good luck to every one!

Forgive me if this has been suggested already but would fiber channel HDDs be of any use to this project? With 15,000 rpm and a transfer rate of 200MB ps they would work extremely well in a RAID setup (on camera even...). Prices aren't too bad either. You can get a 36GB hard drive for $2-300 (though that's probably more expensive than people want).

Yes it certainly would be. This is a typical problem is groups like this, it had been suggested that it must be possible to make faster drives (using multiple heads and platters) but we were all too busy wandering around to worry about looking at it. Maybe it is time for a thread split.

I had allready started threads a while ago Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Problems and Performance (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28780) for excited discussion on every camera system and problems setting up, Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28781) for technical developement issues, hardware and software parts (workflow, NLE, codecs etc), and Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - General Discussion (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28779) for everything else. I have been using them for archival purposes, for new users to catch up, but if everybody wants to adopt them, your welcome to use them.

So what information are on those drives and how do they work, I imagine there will be SATA 300 (non fibre channel) versions eventually? If they are multiple platters, then maybe there are versions with high enough capacities to match the normal multiple raid drives in price and storage (otherwise they will only be suitable for the top of the line for us). Do you know of any other HDD solutions?

Thanks for this effort Aaron.

Wayne.

Thanks very much Anhar (I appreciate your appreciation). The problem is about using the information to finding the best solution and not letting it go to waste (or rehashing the same information over and over again).

About the volunteers, what I am really asking is for some self organising people to work together and go out and track down and research information and products. So everbody takes on a research task, talks about the results (to see if anybody can come up with something better). The problem is if we just rely of people to drop crumbs of information here we will not get a good slice of the loaf (the best solution).

So if 3 or 4 people volunteer, then we can track down thbest solutions for this camera.

Just- In on the news, some American bound airliner was returned to Sydney, because of a possible attempted cockpit invasion and bomb threat, really brings everything into perspective. Just in, it was a note found on board and no mention of a skirmish or cockpit invasion, good news.

Batteries, yes the battery you suggested sounds good. I am also looking at making a cheaper battery pack out of cheap ni-cad cells (I found that you could make them up with cheap Chineese cells, from some places something like a tenth of retail from some suppliers) . Post the link on the technical thread, with two cameras, and many newer models comming, I think this thread is going to be very busy.

Thanks

Wayne.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ben Syverson : Wayne, I think that camera had a built-in lens? I wouldn't buy something without C-mount -- you never know what kind of plastic optics you'll get. :) - ben -->>>

Sorry, I was meaning a standard lense based sensor (or even replacing the plastic lense with a standard lense).


I've been holding back until you had a good handle on using the camera, but how does the optical properties (not in detail or resolution) look compared to a DV camera like the PD150? To me color in the footage looks a bit flat. Certainly it is filmic, because of the resolution and detail. Optically it looks a little like something from a 35mm GG adapter. I would certainly use it for documentaries, if it wasn't for the low light sensitivty ( and poitential latitude problems).

Could ypu try tests on: a bright full clear sky day, strong light smearing, test charts, and the head and shoulders shoot again with the same lighting.

There has been some negatrive comments on the Fillfactory chip and USB in times past, so I was wondering if you could clear a few things up for us, it would be helpful:

I guess it has the new version of the sensor chip and the USB interface does not do pixel packing, and it does not have on camera frame buffer memory (these things would even out the USB2 burst bandwidth requirement problem and allow 720p shutters above 1/60ths)?

How fast can you run the shutter and not drop below 24FPS in 8 bit and in 10 bit modes, and can the software be setup to force a set synced frame rate (24fps)?

Real Range and light sensitvity estimates?

What is the perforamnce difference when running global shutter to compared to rolling shutter.

Does sumix know of any front end pro video capture/control software.

Thanks

Wayne.

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Gorski : is this the camera with the altasens chip that everyone is talking about?... and is it really less then $2000? when will it be available? will it record directly to computer?... for the love of god... i need answers.

http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/ -->>>


http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/

Stuff, is this right, a 3 chip Altsens JVC pro box camera for less than $2000? Is this a miss print of less than $20,000?? If this is right we might aswell quit any 1 chip Altsens Cameralink product right now, at these prices it will still be cheaper than the 1 chip + capture card, even with a HDSDI card.

If this is right, I expected a price response from the major manufacturers to squash us eventually, but not like this, and definetely not this much.

So this leaves us left with the Gigbite, firewire, and usb cameras.

I have been unable to find a confirmation of this price, though hopefully I will check with the distributor tomorrow, hopefully he is not still waiting for me to buy a HD-10 camera ;)

Here is a listing with the HD1? replacement, maybe it is somehow design related.

http://www.dealtime.com/xPP-Camcorders--jvc~PG-8

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?model_id=MDL101390&amp;feature_id=08


This lists a fuel cell for cameras ;)

http://broadcastengineering.com/news/broadcasting_broadcast_engineering_pick_2/


Now the big question, there are different versions of the altsens, this one has low sensitivity (??) "Sensitivity: F5.6 - F8/2000 lx". Is the version Sumix adn SI are doing better than that?

I somehow doubt the price is true (despite being up at Videosystem for more than a month), but if it is that is totally unexpected good news for us (but not so much for some of our supporters, that I really like mind you).

Thanks

Wayne.

>>
http://videosystems.com/mag/video_shoot_tools_26/

Stuff, is this right, a 3 chip Altsens JVC pro box camera for less than $2000? Is this a miss print of less than $20,000?? If this is right we might aswell quit any 1 chip Altsens Cameralink product right now, at these prices it will still be cheaper than the 1 chip + capture card, even with a HDSDI card.<<

Wayne, yes this is indeed correct as far as I know. I ran across this very camera last night on accident and was quite shocked. I sent the guys at JVC an email just to verify the validity of the pricing and availability - I'll report if/when they reply.

The only thing I can see that may be problematic for some people is the 720p/60 as there seems to be a distinct love for 24p.

I also ran across another camera with similar specs... can't remember what or where though. I'll sift through my bookmarks and post when I have more info.

Please do, thanks.

Wayne.

Too bad a half-decent HD B4-mount lens for that JVC is going to cost you $10,000 ;-)

Who said I was going to use a B4 ;)

Ok I looked up the other camera I mentioned previously. I'm not sure about prices (haven't contacted the company for info) and I'm not sure if these will be of any use.

Apogee Instruments has several "platform" variants that can be designed to incorporate practically any chip you see fit. This is likely not going to be of much use to anyone but I figure it can't hurt to post it ;).

Apogee website: http://www.ccd.com/alta_design_gallery.html

Files regarding their "U2 Platform" (PDF):
http://www.ccd.com/U2.pdf
http://www.ccd.com/kaf-1602e.pdf

----------

Regarding the fiber channel HHDs:

I'll try to post in a more appropriate thread next time ;).

(The following is selectively taken from several sources)

Fiber Channel is an Open industry standard serial interface for high-speed systems. You can view fibre channel simply as a transport vehicle for the supported command set (usually SCSI commands). In fact, fibre channel is unaware of the content of the information being transported. It simply packs data in frames, transports them to the appropriate devices, and provides error checking. Also called Fibre Channel-Arbitrated Loop (FC-AL).

Fibre Channel drives were designed for use in multiple-drive system environments like servers. A Fibre Channel configuration consists a backplane, which is an external enclosure that houses a printed circuit board (PCB) and multiple drive receptacles, and a Fibre Channel host bus adapter (HBA). The backplane allows direct connection to the drives (no cable), supplies power to the drives, and controls the input and output of data on all drives within the system. Because so much of Fibre Channel's benefits are derived from its method of data handling among multiple drives, single drive environments will realize no significant performance enhancement by using Fibre Channel over LVD.

Some various sites with useful info:
http://www.fibrechannel.org/
http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/fc-alfs.html

I am not immediately aware of any other HDD solutions that may be of use. I'll take a look and ask some people I know.

Jason Rodriguez wrote:
Just curious to know how Rob Scott's doing with his capture software. Been over to the Wiki and his blog hasn't been updated in a little over a week.I've been on the road for nearly a week -- trade show for my company. I've just updated the wiki. Unfortunately, due to my dead PC and schedule, it's going to be at least two more weeks before I can make major progress.

@Wayne: I guess it has the new version of the sensor chip and the USB interface does not do pixel packing

I'm not sure.


@Wayne: How fast can you run the shutter and not drop below 24FPS in 8 bit and in 10 bit modes, and can the software be setup to force a set synced frame rate (24fps)?

You're clearly not reading the posts -- if you catch up on the discussion, you'll see where we're at.


@Wayne: Real Range and light sensitvity estimates?

I won't even comment on this until we have the 10bit log transfer happening. That will make a big difference.


@Wayne: What is the perforamnce difference when running global shutter to compared to rolling shutter.

Again, we've been over this, for now it's rolling shutter only.

@Wyane: Does sumix know of any front end pro video capture/control software.

The hardware is so specialized that it's much easier for them to write it themselves. That's why I'm getting involved now, to brainstorm with them as that software evolves.

- ben

Does anybody know about someplace to look at image test samples from the Altasens chip??

My main goal is to make a 2K or 1920x1080 camera, and up to now I'm heading for the SI-3170 which uses a chip called YM-3170 from a company called Y-Media situated in California which doesn't have a Web page.

Anyway it seems to me that this is a rather old chip.It was presented September 2000, so I don't know.
More data welcome.....

The JVC KH-F870U camera (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/press_res.jsp?model_id=MDL101390&feature_id=08) definitely looks interesting if it really is in the $2000 price range.

According to the information I could find, here are the drawbacks for our project: 1080i60 or 720p60 only (no 24p for filmmaking)
HD-SDI output only (4:2:2)
Probably incompatible with standard lenses
They could easily have put in 24p to make it suitable for low-budget filmmaking and they deliberately left it out. Jerks.

@Rob: "They could easily have put in 24p to make it suitable for low-budget filmmaking and they deliberately left it out. Jerks."

24p is one of the last remaining things they won't put in inexpensive cameras. I think the fear is that people will flock to the cheap stuff rather than the high-margin expensive stuff.

Which, of course, is true. What they don't realize is that if they don't provide 24p, somebody else will. Like Steve or Sumix.

- ben

Ben Syverson wrote:
24p is one of the last remaining things they won't put in inexpensive cameras. I think the fear is that people will flock to the cheap stuff rather than the high-margin expensive stuff.Yup, I know it. It's like IBM in the early days of the PC -- they didn't want to add advanced features because they didn't want to cannibalize their higher-end market. But then other companies cannibalized it anyway.

What sort of data transfer rate would be required to transmit 4:2:2 footage to harddisk?

10 bit data, 4:2:2 for 1920x1080 takes @24 fps takes 119 MB/s.

Two WD Raptor disks in RAID 0 are enough to sustain that transfer rate.Although I think you would need a motherboard with a data bus higher than 133 MB.


Does anybody know about someplace to look at image test samples from the Altasens chip??

My main goal is to make a 2K or 1920x1080 camera, and up to now I'm heading for the SI-3170 which uses a chip called YM-3170 from a company called Y-Media situated in California which doesn't have a Web page.

Anyway it seems to me that this is a rather old chip.It was presented September 2000, so I don't know.
More data welcome.....

What about 12bit 720p 60fps (ie the JVC camera)? How does one calculate this? I've never needed to do it before.

@Juan: 10 bit data, 4:2:2 for 1920x1080 takes @24 fps takes 119 MB/s.

True, but remember that we're transferring and storing 10 bit monochrome data from the sensor (ie, before it's de-Bayered into RGB data).

So to calculate 4:4:4 for 10 bit at 1920x1080 at 24fps, we do this (this works for any Bayer calculation):

1920 * 1080 * 10bit / 8bits-per-byte == 2592000 bytes per frame
2592000 * 24 = 62208000 bytes per second.
62208000 / 1024 = 60750 kilobytes per second.
60750 / 1024 = 59.326 megabytes per second

So under 60 MB/sec for uncompressed 4:4:4 10-bit 1080p @ 24fps. If we add lossless compression, we can probably cut that almost in half.


4:2:2 is not a good idea for transfer and storage of Bayer-filter data. It's a false economy, because 4:2:2 refers to luma and chroma. Those terms only work if you're dealing with YUV/YCbCr or RGB. So you wind up with twice as much data for 4:2:2 than 4:4:4 uncompressed. Here's the calculation for 4:2:2 10bit 1080p @ 24fps:

1920 * 1080 * 10 / 8bits == 2592000 bytes for the luma channel
1920 * 1080 * 10 / 8bits == 2592000 bytes for the two chroma channels
(each chroma channel is half-size, so together, they equal one full-size frame)
5184000 bytes per frame, 124416000 bytes per second
124416000 / 1024 / 1024 = 118.65 MB/sec.


4:2:2 takes twice the data to store and transfer, with no benefits. 4:4:4 is the way to go.


By the way, I talked to Sumix about a FPS lock, to which Farhad responded "We are implementing exactly this."

And Sumix seems to be very open to implementing a Cineon exporter in their 10-bit software update. That would rock.

- ben

Does Sumix have support for RAW bayer data, or it only outputs RGB???

Will they give us some kind of open source applet or an SDK???

Have you thought about using a 16x9 adapter to use all of the sensor´s area to get a better image???



Does anybody know about someplace to look at image test samples from the Altasens chip??

My main goal is to make a 2K or 1920x1080 camera, and up to now I'm heading for the SI-3170 which uses a chip called YM-3170 from a company called Y-Media situated in California which doesn't have a Web page.

Anyway it seems to me that this is a rather old chip.It was presented September 2000, so I don't know.
More info welcome.....

@Juan: Does Sumix have support for RAW bayer data, or it only outputs RGB???

You can output RAW B&W bayer data or de-Bayered RGB data via nearest-neighbor, bilinear or laplacian de-mosaicing algorithms. I only output RAW.


@Juan: Have you thought about using a 16x9 adapter to use all of the sensor´s area to get a better image???

Absolutely. I have a 16:9 adapter and a 2.33:1 adapter I'll be testing with in the coming weeks and months.

- ben

GREAT!!! thank you :).

I believe that getting the image thru anamorphic, be-bayer it, and resize to 1280x720 would give amazing quality!! (in fact almost 4:4:4!! You will be getting 512 instead of 360 lines for Red and Blue)

Will they give us some kind of open source applet or an SDK???

Definitely! My thinking is that if you do anamorphic 1280x1024, you should be able to expand it to 1920x1080 and have it look okay too!

Sure!!!

Anyway in that situation I would prefer using a 1920 bayer.

My idea is using that 2048x1536 chip with anamorphic to get a final 2048x1107 image that will rock HDCAM!!!!

Or going to 1920x1080 for TV and get better results!!
(Remember that in fact HDCAM is 1440x1080)

@OBIN

Could you give us an exposure test of your camera. I´d prefer an outdoors image on a sunny day with some deep shadows somewhere.
That way we would be able to determine the camera characteristics...
Also it would be nice if you could tell us at what aperture your problems with streaks start...and if they disappear at lower apertures or remain the same...

@Juan: Remember that in fact HDCAM is 1440x1080

And that's just luminance -- the chroma is 480x1080! That's essentially 3:1:1. And it's highly, highly compressed -- MiniDV has 5:1 compression, but at 135megabits/sec (only 16.8Megabytes/sec), HDCAM is 8.4:1 compression.

Less color resolution than DV, and more compression? I think I'll stick with our 4:4:4 10bit uncompressed, at 1/100th the cost! :)

- ben

I am not at work today but I am going down for a few min to pickup the camera and bring it home for a few TESTS


I may get the SI-3300 camera for testing soon ..less streaking I hope ;)

OBIN,

Is it the 3300 or the 3170???
Is it the 3300 2048x1536?
Does it support 30 fps at full resolution??

Do you have a photometer?
If so, could you measure its sensitivity too?

What is your usual gamma correction??

I guess somebody at SI should make these test for us, but.......

Anyone who wants more test images with HIGHCONTRAST stuff please provide your email...I can't upload ftp from home (don't know login)

I have been fooling around and it turns out that yes they more you GAIN the camera the worse the "smear" is...I now question if I had gain REALLY high on the shoot with the backlights....it was so much pressure I could have overlooked that I think...it's weird ...testing at home here I have to push it HARD to get that amount os smear again...

I'm baaaackkkk.
I've also read this thread and caught up - bouncing up and down in my chair wanting to answer things but I figured that I should read to the end first. So:

Juan: The SI-3170 has been correctly stated as the Y-Media chip - very fast (100Mpix/sec) 3.2 mpix. It uses two 12 bit A/D converters but has a fair amount of FPN and low sensitivity. I put it on par with the IBIS-5. I wouldn't suggest it for studio work with the Altasens coming out. But hey, I wouldn't suggest the IBIS-5 either and we have an external A/D for lower noise and higher data rates. If someone wants to try it on camera link at 12 bit, let me know. The SI-3300 is a Micron camera - 3.2Mpix at 12fps but 1920x1080@24fps.

More on IBIS-5: Yes you can use it in global shutter mode for continuous capture. The integration time is sequential to the readout time so every time you need to change exposure you must recalculate the pixel clock to get the frame rate you want. And, the readout time must be fast enough to handle that. This is probably why Sumix doesn't do it on USB.

Jason: I think Rob explained the 10/12 bits on the SI-1300. It is a 10 bit A/D with the data shifted up by two. This is because most industrial apps only know 8 and 12 bit data.

Obin and all on smearing: Obin, try running at only 24fps instead of 48. Micron suggests lower clock rates for less smearing. This is the rate the IBIS-5 is being tested at anyway. I've tried to be open about this as soon as we heard about the problem. I'm also letting anyone who has an SI-1300 upgrade to either the SI-3300 or SI-1920HD if they need to (the Altasens is more money).

Here is a link for an Altasens monochrome 8 bit image to get everyone thinking:
http://host196.ipowerweb.com/~siliconi/Samples/1920%20Linda%20in%20HD3.jpg

steve please provide a smear test if you can

take the camera and shoot a light that is taking about 5x5 pixels of less of the screen and see if you get dark streaks from it with the 3300

I am fooling with a footage clip on the machine in Combustion now..I will try and send a WMV via email if you want it...

Ok...I think I am starting to understand the smear thing...I have footage that is 16bit tiff files in Combustion..everything looks good..when I BOOST the gamma in the SHADOWS the "smear" comes out..if I just boost the MIDS and HIGHS the smear never shows...so how hard would you guys think you need to push the darks for this camera in a Cine type shoot for a film? also if you DON"T have a HOTSPOT in the frame and you push the darks hard they are fine....

things are looking better from my POV now....maybe I can work with this after all....

The new lens is a HUGE improvement over the cheap CCTV lenses I had...new one is a $350 8-51mm C-mount zoom

guys I need some FTP space if you want to see some clips/video.... I can't send files via email, they will not fit..anyone have FTP??

Ok...I think I am starting to understand the smear thing...I have footage that is 16bit tiff files in Combustion..everything looks good..when I BOOST the gamma in the SHADOWS the "smear" comes out..if I just boost the MIDS and HIGHS the smear never shows...so how hard would you guys think you need to push the darks for this camera in a Cine type shoot for a film? also if you DON"T have a HOTSPOT in the frame and you push the darks hard they are fine....


The whole point is to push the shadows. If you're not pushing the shadows (of course there's a point to where you can push), then you're missing a couple bits in the low end-in other words you taking your 10-bit image and making it 8 or even 6-bits, cause those darks a hiding a huge amount of bit depth. You're looking at a linear image. If you check back a couple pages ago to where I placed some linear images in my post as samples, linear images are very dark, and you have to raise those darks to get the proper image. You have to apply an overall gamma of around 1.7-2.2. If the darks from that gamma gain go nuts, and you have to crush them, then you're loosing a lot of dynamic range. I've worked with a lot of linear images, and they should be clean when you do the gamma correction to match them to the gamma of the monitor/display device. There could be some non-linearity in the bottom, and I'm not sure how that skews the results or limits the dynamic range. Maybe if Les Dit could check out some of the image, he could find out what the true dynamic range of the image is.

ok 1.7-2.0 gamma is ok for the darks in what I shot today

someone needs to allow this message board atleast a way to upload stills for viewing on the boards!

Oh, Okay,

Then that's good.

BTW, I have ftp space (not much, but enough for stills).

Email me at jrod@mindspring.com and I'll post it.

Obin Olson wrote:
someone needs to allow this message board atleast a way to upload stills for viewing on the boards!You can upload images to the wiki (http://www.obscuracam.com/wiki/wiki/run.php?iRequest=upload/UploadList), but they are currently limited to 1 MB. This is probably way too small -- tomorrow I'll try to remember how to change the setting.

Ok Jason..when I push the gamma in the DARKS at about 3.8 it looks really bad

shadows are ok at 1.6 gamma. No higher then that...what do you think?

I guess having the option to do anything with gamma is great when you compare this with videotape stuff...

@Rob: 1 MB. This is probably way too small

Not necessarily, depending on the purpose of the upload -- 720p frames only take up about 800k with JPEG at 100% quality

- ben

Originally posted by Obin Olson : guys I need some FTP space if you want to see some clips/video.... I can't send files via email, they will not fit..anyone have FTP??

Hi Obin,

I can give a little FTP space and bandwidth, send me email and I give you a login and password.

marjamar@speedwing.net

Okay, here's Obin's pic:

http://home.mindspring.com/~jrod/gamma_DARKS_3.8.jpg

BTW Obin, at 10bits, and a gamma of 3.8, there is no way you're going to make those blacks look good.

In Combustion you should go to the "Master" setting (not shadows, mids, highs), and then apply a gamma of 1.7.

Actually even better, you should go to the LUT in the footage tab (under output), and then give that a gamma of 1.7 so that there's no "filters" being applied. That's the nice thing about Combustion, you can apply LUT's to images, something that AE doesn't let you do. Just watch out, because the default LUT clips the shadows and highlights, you don't want that, so stretch the curve over to the end of the highlights and shadows. But try the LUT feature. And again, you need an overall gamma of 1.7, not separate gammas for each of the different sections of the image, because those gammas are ON TOP of the gamma of the master. So you're applying a gamma of 3.8 to the base gamma of 1, not applying an overall 1.7 which would look much different.

ohhhh....hmm I did not know that...

cool I will dink around with the LUT...


thanks..good stuff!