hey, how bout this also

http://www.visioncom.co.il/cameras/M4/TemplateM4_Colour_PL-A654.html

i dont know the price at all though. Its a firewire camera, uses a 1/2" cmos sensor. uses c-mount. and is uncompressed video. it can do 1024 x 768 at 23 fps. how much is this imaging module??? comes with software. anyone know the price? if its not much more, id go with this one.

If you guys haven't found them before, Edmund Optics (http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/browse.cfm?categoryid=944&level=2) has quite a few cameras like this (and with prices too!) with all manner of features, frame rates and connection types. I've already got a camera so I'm not particularly looking for another, but maybe eventually I'll replace the one I've got with a custom-built one...

As far as I can remember I think there is a syncing mechanism between the cameras. Yes. Forrest's system can work, the Olympus 8Mp ENG camera uses a prism to do the same thing. Thermal expansion and physical bumps can put them out of alignment, prism is better. Getting them to line up pixel perfect side by side is best, but not so easy, unless you make special cross hair chart for alignment. After you buy 4, you might as well experimented with www.Elphel.com HD compressed security camera for less than $800.


Pixel shift
-----------------------------------------------
How pixel shift works is that you get 640*480 VGA images planes of red green and blue. The images are aligned so that (for instance) what the green plain is recording is offset 1/3 rd a pixel down and left from the red plain, and what the blue plane is offset 1/3 rd a pixel down and left from the green plain. You do this by shifting the sensors. It produces three times more virtual pixels in both the horizontal and vertical directions (I.E. 9 times more pixels). Unlike Bayer there is no missing data to guess (interpolation) as all layers cover everything except for a few lines on the edges of the screen, where there are only one or two planes working (use interpolation techniques there).

So instead of the red green and blue plains being exactly aligned there overlap is offset. Because they are overlapping they record (this is very similar to how a 300dpi ink jet printer can get 1200dpi edges) a slightly different location in the images. But what happens in the overlap is that now each pixel on the different plains sticks out slightly from the last plane, giving a fine detailed artificial edge. Confusing, I am not really upto explaining it. But because this is done in horizontal and vertical directions the horizontal edges split across the vertical edges, making a fine series of sub-pixels. So unprocessed, this will give you a HD image. But on a resolution chart you will find that it seems to blur pixel edges. But because light and colour across objects follow predictable patterns in nature, you can make the software identify details and edges, and scale the resolution up and remove or add to the pixels to move the edges and details into their correct resolution.

Pixel shifting is done a fair bit on cameras, but usually only the green plane is 50% shifted. Pro SD ENG cameras might move the green plain to cover the space in between the pixel that produces the screen door effect etc. The Canon XL1 used it, that is why it got better low light performance and bigger latitude in it's day. The Panasonic AGX100 uses it, that is how the Andromeda conversion gets HD from it, by using the pixel shift to do it. The Sony Z1, Canon (don't know about the JVC) and I think the HVX200 use it. The cheap 3chip Panasonic have been using it. I think it was the GS120, people were not so impressed with the resolution charts (blurring) from the pixel shift. I think the GS120/65 use 1/3rd pixel shift.

What I am saying is that processed the, results probably won't be any worse than debayered or 4:2:0 video. Unprocessed, maybe de-Bayer can look better, but I think it might turn out better than 4:2:0.

I'm not too on the ball at the moment, if anybody can explain it simpler, please do.

-----------------------------------------------


About the two cameras taking alternative frame thing, somebody was looking at dong that with still cameras in recent months. Search for all threads I have posted to and you'll probably find it. Might even be a Red thread.


If Ronald posted it, it is worth looking up.


I would like to suggest that you start up a new thread on this topic and post a link here, as this is a thread on the extinct Sumix camera ;)

I got ya, thanks wayne! ive got a couple of choices to think about right now. so imm gonna have to settle on one.

Does anyone know more about these Elphel camera's?
These (http://www.elphel.com/3fhlo/) sample images look very impressive.

wow. looks promising. to a completely untrained eye.
I'm eager to learn more. Did you e-mail him Oscar?

I noticed an SD resolution at 60fps.

I wouldn't mind combining 4 of these focusing on four segements of a ground glass, synced up to a fast laptop yielding uncompressed 60p HD

I have been emailing him over converting his cameras to cinema use, I actual have mail waiting from him. He is content with the security camera business, though there is much opportunity, I can appreciate that it must be very hard to move in more than one direction when your business is not large. I've been in occasional contact with him since 2004.

You would be in the same position as with a Sumix, or a Silicon imaging camera (except you get a lot more for your money and the software development stuff I think is free, not many hundreds of dollars) and no capture card needed for many computers. It probably would be best to contact the Ogg people to find out about capture and editing with the Ogg codec he uses. The Linux open source community networking with open source programmers, particularly with ones interested in things like the Cinelerra editor/capture program, might find somebody interested in helping. If you look on the source forge for Elphel, you will see somebody offering to party programmers to develop a application for industrial inspection use (well that's what I think they are doing). So Elphel community, Cinelerra, Ogg open-source community would probably be the best place to try.

Another word, without expanding the FPGA to record directly to disk, the next best option to by pass a computer, would be an embedded board that controls a external caddy hard disk and passes the data directly to it (automated pref no processor intervention all) at he same time copying the information to it's memory for a preview function to run off an external LCD, also controlling buttons and menu system and passing commands to the camera. All easier said than done. Small Arm/Mips/micro-controller boards may have all the integrated systems needed to do this, including video output.

I see a member called Larry Liang posted about their camera on this board:

<<<<<Elphel's camera use the micron's 1.3 Mega and 3 Mega sensor. It can output Motion-Jpeg stream with a speed of 22 fps@1280*1024, 31fps@1280*720.

With Elphel's camera, it is much easier for storage, because the video has been compressed before output, but hard to display: you need additional CPU capacity of decoding the JPEG picture. Generally, To display the video with full speed and resolution, a 3G P4.CPU is needed.
>>>>>>

Does anyone know how good or bad the compression is? How about using such a camera (or other) and using a separate viewfinder to eliminate preview during capture.

He has also moved to Ogg Theodore in his latest camera, I don't know anything about the codec, but if you look up sourceforge you can find information, and the website for Ogg and more information. On the Elphel site (also look at their wiki and source forge, they have sample footage).

http://www.imperx.com/machine_vision/megapixel_digital_cameras/2meg_high_definition/index.html

have a look there may not be cheapo but
1920 x 1080 pixels @ 33 fps
8/10/12 bit data
Gig E (Gigabit Ethernet

Ronald,

Does it have a proper video capture application? Is there any reasonably priced camera that has one?

Have you guys noticed that most of the info on the Elphel 333 model is located on this site: http://sourceforge.net/projects/elphel
They have an interesting forum, someone is actually using it to film footage for his bike-race simulating software (for home-trainer bikes). It means he films the road from a car or something, I guess those are long takes.
I downloaded all the info incl. pricing of the 333 model here:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=105686&package_id=173858&release_id=391625 (elphel_docs-2006-02-07.tar.bz2)

More about the sensor site is here: http://www.micron.com/products/imaging/products/MT9T001.html

Is it me (who knows too little about all this) or is this really promising?
What do you people think would be the minimal system requirements to capture (without preview) from this camera, say 22Fps at 720p or more?

I think this camera is very promising, when i get the cash, and the know-how about making a portable recording solution. im going to buy one and make it into a cinema camera.

Actually, this camera is probably one of the easier ones for recording, the stream is somewhere below 100Mb/s, so drives that can sustain this and processing bus requirements are easier. The previews is another thing though, that I do not know about. I suspect an embedded board that passes the stream to an Ethernet Hard drive caddy, and does a preview, as a possibility.

About previewing the image.. My idea would be to integrate such a camera in a 35mm adapter (possibly a good microwax GG) and use a two way mirror or just a piece of anti reflective glass, between the GG and the camera, to either make an optical viewfinder on top, or a (cheap)small B/W CMOS camera and use an LCD to view the image on the mirror. I got the idea from Dan Diaconu, so it should be worth a shot.

Focusing this way won't be accurate enough, I'm sure, but for me it'll be fine to measure the right distance to the subject. (maybe with a laser measure or something)

I wrote an email to the Belgian guy who uses the camera to capture cycling races to his laptop. I'll come back to this when I know more.

keep up the work oscar, i am very interested in this camera also. let us know what he says . a question, how do you put a mirror or glass between the lens and adapter, does it have to move out of the way before we start recording the image? how do film camera viewfinders work? thanks . cuz, i would also need a view finder if i was going to use this camera.

I didn't got a reply yet, but to answer your question..this is what Dan wrote(sadly, he's still suspended - he had some clever idea's)
<<<<mount a MC filter (that will act as a mirror) at 45 deg (closest to the GG) and a tiny CMOS surveillance type on top to capture the image of the GG (reflected in the filter)and display it on a monitor (of your choice) You can mount the CMOS so you see it up right. They (CMOS) do not need A LOT OF LIGHT to give you an image (remember, it "steals" the image of the reflection in the filter) they are cheap (less than $20) and your camcorder will not suffer any amount of light loss or image degradation.
(this is kind of a tiny prompter or videoassist for film cameras)>>>>


Of course it means you have to use a 35mm adapter for this, I hope my wax glass gives high enough resolution (that's not the right word) because it is small and doesn't loose much light.

By the way, have you noticed at the bottom of the price info on the Elphel 333 model the note on a free or discount camera if you're doing an interesting project?
Maybe we'll get a discount if some people here (including me) would order together and present it as a project...which it would be unless we don't share our findings here of course...just a thought.

yah i know what you mean, i saw that note a while back, and so i did email him with my lengthy presentation of what i planned to do with his camera. (the whole 35mm adapter and everrthing) he wrote back and it seemed as almost i was going to get the camera at free/discount. but he said he needed to talk it over with his friends before he could make any decisions. i said, "sounds good, lemme know what happens" and he said he will. but thats the last i heard from Aundrey. perhaps he didnt like it and he was just trying to be nice. i hope he doesnt just blow me off. but what can i do, i gave it my best. but yah, perhaps as a team, we can convice him. thanks

If you go for a group discount. I might be in.
Thanks for your work on this guys.

Oscar,
Do any of these usb cmos cameras have the ability to take a frame when an external trigger tells it to ?
I am searching for one that I can sync to a flashing light, and I can provide a TTL signal for the 'take a frame now' signal.

I can write a c program to control it, if needed, but the frame has to happen pretty much right when the trigger happens. The strobe is about 30 ms light duration. Any ideas ?
Thanks!
-Les

Les, sorry but I don't know enough about this to answer that. Have you checked the forum on the Elphel site? (I posted the link some posts back)

I got a reply from the Belgian guy. It's a very nice guy and he's interested in this project. He says:
<<I can record 18minute long files (2gb file limit). >>
<<The problem I have is I have constantly moving complex image & if the image becomes very complex (under trees in a sunny forest) the mjpeg becomes bigger & thus you start to drop frames if you’re already pushing the limit of your laptops ability to move the data to the hard drive.>>

You should know that he is filming on the road from a car, so that is really the worst case compared to most indoor scenes most of us would probably need to film.
He offered to meet him and see how the camera would do on my 1.5Ghz laptop. I hope I can find a way to do that, because he lives on the other end of Belgium(but he also says he's in Holland soon for work).

About a group discount proposal to Elphel...it's not a bad idea. We have to keep it in mind..

Elphel has indicated to me special deals for people the want to develop the camera. So if anybody here would like to develop a video capture front end, and/or disk recording solution, than he may, hopefully, help.

Now for some news, there is a new PDA like PC platform coming, and prices will be around that of a cheap laptop, but it gives a good handheld small form-factor computer and monitor. Maybe as a good recording platform (as long as you can connect something to record the ?100Mb/s stream. As long as you know what your doing, but this is not so demanding as the Raw cinema cameras as 100Mb/s is only a fraction of what they were doing. You might even consider a PDA of some sort.

http://www.origamiproject.com

The good news is that flash card memory devices are quiet low, so in theory faster versions (that can sustain 100Mb/s) in USB2 or Flash variations (they usually are the cheapest) of 8GB might be possible.

Just remember with the 333 camera, it's advantage is Ogg, but nowhere have I seen, or been told exactly what bit rate it can use in the Ethernet stream, what compression rate, or how it particularly performs in relation to Mpeg2. I have viewed the video clips under magnification, and it does worry me, it would be good to get these answers from Elphel first.

The only other consideration is work flow! Capture edit effects, trans-code to finale, how is it goign to happen. Maybe one of the Linux editor/capture applications like Cinelerra (used in the movie industry) already does it, but I have seen no information.

Re-edit: Sorry for the repeat I only just saw the posts on the free Elphel stuff on the previous page.

Oscar,
Do any of these usb cmos cameras have the ability to take a frame when an external trigger tells it to ?
I am searching for one that I can sync to a flashing light, and I can provide a TTL signal for the 'take a frame now' signal.

Les, there has been cameras around for flash/strobe photography for years, i am sure their are a number, I even think that bayer VGA camera I posted before might have some such synchronisation feature on it that might help.

I did find a cheaper camera than the Elphel, "artray" is there name, but there is no compression etc that Elphel offers, and I don't know if the chips are of high enough quality compared to the mid quality ones used for the Elphel. Maybe it worth going through there site to see if any of the models support it.

Thanks Wayne,
I only need about 1.3 megapixels for this camera. It just has to support some kind of trigger mechanism.

Maybe the Sync signal can be used as a trigger on different cameras?

The artray cameras do support external trigger, that's good. But where can I get one, and for how much ? I see they sell in Australia ?
I hate web sites that make it hard to *buy* the damned product they are trying to sell!!!!
-Les

They have a website in Japan, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, that's where you buy order the Australian ones from.

If you want compressed video etc, it might be worth checking out the Elphel first and paying the extra couple of hundred of dollars.

Any pricing on these artray cameras? You said they are cheaper, but by how much ?
I don't need compressed, and that other cam is a little too much of an 'always in beta' mode for me!

Wayne, I got another reply from the Belgian about this(must be something new):
<<< The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). The liveCD is a bootable OS so your Laptop will boot from the CD drive rather then the hard drive. It does not matter what OS you have installed on the drive.>>>

I hope I have some time to meet him and try out the cameras (he owns the 313 and the 333).
The only problem he mentioned (I quoted him some posts back) is that the file size goes up when there is a lot of moving detail (like trees) because of the compression (or lack of it to sustain the quality)
Now I was wondering.. using a 35mm adapter washes out a lot of detail in the out of focus area's because of the short Depth of Field. Wouldn't that be an advantage?

I don't know, depends on how the compression works, but I am more interested in how this Ogg can be made to perform, is it any good for us?


Les

I can't locate the price list at the moment, but I believe it was $550. It is a shame I couldn't get a group together to compile a list of cheap cameras out there, back in the Digital Cinema days.

Are there still people around who are considering to suggest a group discount on the Elphel 333 camera?
The thing I like about the camera is that it is in constant development.
The Belgian guy (who is actually British) who owns the camera says that the software has been improved much the last year. He can now edit avi files in windows...something that wasn't possible before. It also has auto exposure & white balance now.

The liveCD thing (the software that comes with the camera) as I understand it, is a bootable OS that runs right from the CD. So you can just as well have windows installed on the computer.

Oscar, could you find if it is possible to record using windows as an OS, well to run the camera's operating system software? is this information correct. to use windows with the liveCD ?

Now I was wondering.. using a 35mm adapter washes out a lot of detail in the out of focus area's because of the short Depth of Field. Wouldn't that be an advantage?

I think that's a general truth, I've noticed that when compressing video footage (doesn't matter if the target is mjpeg or MPEG1/MPEG2 using i-frames), you need a higher bitrate than you need on footage from film. This is because of "less detail" in areas that are out of focus.

Forrest,
The liveCD is an OS by itself running from the CD. So it just boots from the CD in stead of windows. Is that what you mean or do you really want to use windows for a recording OS for some reason?
The guy I'm talking to says:
<<<The video is stored as a avi which you can edit in something like Vegas if you have a Mjpeg codec (I use the morgan one). >>>

no, you got it Oscar, thats what i meant. i was just making sure you could run the live CD on windows, and not have to use a linux system. i wonder if the software on live CD allows us to make the avi files originally or do we have to modify the software to do that? thanks.

Forrest, if it needs to be modified, it has been done already and all software and updates are shared for free I guess, because it's an open source project.

Thanks Oscar. I figured it has been updated. Well i forgot to ask about this a while back, but didnt think about it at the time. How does this camera use a shutter? does it even have one? and if so, is it adjustable so that we can make it do say, 1/48th second or 1/200 sec and so on? thanks. is the shutter the same thing as the exposure speed on this camera or not? thanks.

Forrest, I'm not really sure, but maybe you or someone can interpret the specs of the sensor http://www.micron.com/products/imaging/products/MT9T001.html

Would Global pixel reset mean that it uses a variant of a global shutter? Anyway it's not a mechanical shutter.

About the shutter settings, you can look at the live camera controls on this (http://camera2.elphel.com/index.html) page (it's the 313 model, but I guess the controls are about the same.)

I'm planning on buying a 333. I'm not going to try and get a discount, because I'm not a programmer. Unless it's a group discount and we share our setups and findings here or on the Elphel forum. Maybe it's worth a shot?

and you can also look here.
http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/imaging/MT9T001_3100_DS.pdf
this is the data sheet of the sensor. on page 43 it talks about its "global shutter" and also states it can be combined with a mechanical shutter. But does it need a mechanical shutter? becuase it also mentions "bulb mode" exposure also. im lost in all the technical things of it. And building a mechanical shutter for this could be pretty hard i would think.

Look in Obin's thread, he used a sensor with this global reset, I don't remember what it is, but resetting the pixels globally should help cut down the rolling shutter.

alright, to summarize, i am getting an Elphel Camera shipped to me, it will arive monday afternoon. I will build a spinning adapter for it and possibly an optical viewfinder between the adapter and the Elphel camera. i would appreciate any help and advice or findings, and i will continue to post my progress on making this into a cinema camera. i should probally start a new thread. let me know what you guys think

Go Forest,
Go Forest,
Go Go,
Go Forest


(sorry, went to a basketball game last night. I'll be eagerly watching your progress). Have you built an adapter before?

thanks! yes, i have built a static adapter and have redone it about 3 times. it was based off of the Aldu35 design. and i made a 1000 grit gg with alumin oxide. but i dont think that 1000 grit has very good diffusion. but ive also prepared to make a spinning gg for this camera. and Wayne Kinney taught a very good method to increase light transmission by rubbing vaseline over 200 grit surface and then wiping it off. it creates a wet look and when you use it, you barely lose perhaps about .5 of an f stop. perhaps a little less. so i am going to do that.
And i'll basically use the mediachance dof adapter as the basics for mine. Except, right behind the gg and condenser, im going to put a 45 degree angled glass facing to the left. connected over to a mirror that will face up. This will be incorporated into a homemade optical viewfinder. the condenser i use will be a perfect 35mm by 24mm frame size (which i have) so i can easily see the edge of the frame from looking trhough the viewfinder. Thank you very much, and when it comes, ill try to get video as soon as i can.

Forrest, which Codec are you planning on using?

Maybe you can ask him if he has one of the Ibis5a test sensor boards hanging around (the 2/3rd inch 5a has a some nifty features over the Micron).

Wayne, will that sensor be compatiable with Andrey's model design? That would be cool if it would be as simple as resoldering some pins, but im no expert beyond that. i was planning to record ogg format files and then convert them to avi. or if its possible, just record avi files directly. thanks

Ha, Forrest..
Good to hear that you ordered the camera. I am trying to place on order for Europe, but somehow they (Europe) haven't replied yet. I emailed again today.
I'll do almost the same setup as you, only I'll be making a microwax glass.

http://www.pleora.com
have a look

pleora Iport can take the input from RAW or Cameralink Cameras and pump it via GIGE on Fiber direct in a PC MEMORY

They can do the same with SDI etc

Dalsa, Toshiba, Teli, Jai Pulnix, Imperc, prosilica have it as Asic allready inside.
Pulnix can do 1392x1040 at 30 fps with an 1/2" CCD or 2/3 CCD and GiGE

Dalsa Coreco has annonced it's X64 GiGE Series , which can be connected to a wide range of camera, and pump it to a PC

There is Tatile too and Giga Linx they have vAtoms or vAtom Krypton which can do 720 MHZ

www.xilinx.com
there is the hottest tool to design asic's in a clever and fast way.

have fun

so the race it open now

Wayne, will that sensor be compatible with Andrey's model design? That would be cool if it would be as simple as re-soldering some pins, but im no expert beyond that. i was planning to record ogg format files and then convert them to avi. or if its possible, just record avi files directly. thanks

As far as I understand, the boards can take multiple sensors, on daughter cards, and Andrey was testing the Ibis5 on his cameras before (but decided to go with the Micron instead). So maybe he has a test one available that you could ask him about. But some questions you should ask first, support in the software for it. Is it an Ibis5a, or newer, the normal Ibis is not as good. Many Ibis5a cameras rely on the internal ADC (analogue to digital converter) which proves to be noisy and not as good as a good external ADC. Also, care in designing certain external circuits further increases performance (but I don't remember what about it). So, you probably need to ask him if it has the external circuit enhancements, and a good external ADC (believe me, you don't want one that doesn't at all, one guy tried a Ibis5x based camera like this and he shoots were, poor). Use advance search by post, for IBIS related stuff in the digital cinema camera, and Drake, threads, Steven Nor????? from Silicon Image, and Rai that did the Drake camera, are the two people that knew the most about it, and might have mentioned something.

There is footage shoot with the Ibis5x somewhere, have a look on the download/information/developers page, and see what you think (look for how it handles low light, and how it handles high contrast as well, taking notice of just how bright the sun is in the pat of the world shot in).

The bayer color filter sucks some light up, and the color spectral response curve of the Ibis mask has been questioned because of overlaps in the filters, but I know there is natural overlap in human vision, so I don't know exactly how bad/good it is.

I wish you luck with your cameras guys, I am looking forward to seeing what you can get out of this camera.


Thanks

Wayne.

Ronald, what have you been upto? You were going to do Linux camera, and in fact this is such a camera, with Linux bootable CD, ethernet, compressed, directly to compute memory, maybe you would like to be involved? We are all babes dancing in the woods compared to your experience ;).

I had a look at those capture cables, good find. This is the item Silicon Image was trying to sell us on.

I've email them to find out about analogue capture too.