Everything I record with the Xl1 reads a 29.95 or 29.96 fps when I drop it into Premiere 6.0. I sent the camera back three times to Canon, they said it's fine. I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's. So I am stuck in the middle. The problem is only apparent if you capture more than 8 mins of video, then you will see the audio and video drift apart. Any ideas?

In this statement you wrote, "I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's."

Is the tech support blaming Canon's XL-1 for this problem or are they saying it's a shortcoming of the Premiere Program? Or is it some kind of compatibility problem between just these two, which otherwise would be fine with any other cameras/programs?

I happen to have recently purchased an XL-1 and was about to get Premiere 6. Could you be more specific?

The issue may actually be that the XL1 audio clock is ever so slightly off 48000 (something like 48005 I've read) and this can cause some drift between video and audio in long segments when played on a different system with a differnt audio clock rate. Some NLE systems have a parameter that can be set to compensate for this.

Do you have anything more on this Chris?

Here is some more detail on this issue:

To test if you have this problem simly capture a short clip a few seconds is all you need, then check the properties of that clip. If it says 29.97 in the Video Track properties then all is well, if there is some other number there then you might have the same problem I do.
I have received tapes from outside shooters using other DV cameras and they all read 29.97 when captured into Premiere. I even rented another XL1 but the same thing is happening... 29.95 frame rates.
Canon said that they tested my camera using IMovie and found it to read 29.97, Ulead Media Studio 6 and Final Cut Pro were used for tests.

After a few conacts with Tech Support at Premiere I finally ended up at the top level of their support and we tried a few things to lick this problem, among them was to export the audio after bringing it into Premiere and re-importing after changing the Interleave option in the audio settings...didn't work. Another thing that we did was their "Force DVNTSC" option which makes all non-NTSC(29.97) frame rates to be "forced" to the rate...didn't work. At this point I think I have stumped them and they are suggesting using a capture card ( Canopus) which uses its own set of drivers and codecs to hopefully get around this issue. It is not considered a fix but I guess they don't know what else to tell me!
Meanwhile my current solution is to capture everything in 7 min segments and cut it together on the Timeline, which does add a bit of time to my projects.

Help!

I have an XL-1 and I have used it with a variety of different systems. I assure you it is not an XL-1 problem.

This is Premiere's fault. If you use Premiere to drive a 1394 port for video it is exhibited exactly as you describe. It works the other way too, but the XL-1 is smarter about making the incoming DV video conform to DV standard.

I never experienced this, with the very same XL-1 on the very same machine, when using Studio DV or testing Mainconcept, Ulead, or Fast products.

If you are using a capture card the problem goes away completely if you use a capture card. I use an RT2000 in my studio and it is flawless. I have used the Canopus DV Storm, it is flawless. I tested the Pinnacle DV200, it was flawless....

BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house. Now oddly most DV product manufacturers test with an XL-1 because it is a well know conforming camera. A defacto standard if you will. Many manufacturers also test with a large number of DV devices...but Adobe...UGH.

BTW, my understanding is that the problem is worse over in Mac Land. Part of the reason is that Mac OS 9 can't preemptively multitask...so sometimes it interrupts the captures with other housekeeping stuff. That is why I am holding on to the PC and Windows. I won't move to Macintosh until everything I want/need is available under OS X.

Doesn't the frame-rate drop have to do with something with the Capture card, rather than the software?

What capture card/edit software do everybody use here anyhow? and what's the premium choice? It would be nice to have some kinda database like this. Would help us poor newbees save some precious time and money!

I have a XL1s, and was thinking of buying the Raptor from Canopus, but I'd like to know it DOES work.
Thanks!
Takeshi




(a model just sold in Japan,,, it doesn't have RT capabilities as the Raptor RT)

Unless I am missing what's being said, the solution to this problem seems to lie in using a capture card (Rt2000, DV200,etc) and NOT using a plain 'ol 1394 card like Premiere boasts that we are able to do.
I had this problem with Premiere 5.1 also and I gave the tapes to an associate who also edited with Premiere but he used a DV500 capture card and he had the same problem there, the audio drifted after about 8 mins. At the time I was using a MotoDV Studio card which limited my capture time to 8mins(or was it Win98?)so lengthy captures were not in the picture, but there was some drift noticeable.
I am very hesitant to put out the cash for a capture board because I do not know if I would still see the problem, but if this has been a non-issue for you (aibrahim) then maybe that is the route I will take.
Any recommendations on a capture board?
(It annoys me that Premiere touts direct capture through a 1394 card and that seems to be where my trouble lies)

I can recommend from personal experience the Canopus Raptor. DV Storm.

I own a Matrox RT2000. You an get a Matrox RT2500 as well since you probably already have a video card.

I don't know if you are more price conscious or if you want capability.

If price is your concern get the Canopus Raptor AP (the one that comes with Premiere)

If capability is your concern get the DV Storm. Just know that DV Storm relies on you having a solid high power system to use it on.

If you need everything in hardware then get the RT2500 or RT2000. (They are the same. Difference is software package and that RT2000 comes with a Video card that you must use.)

About DV500...I heard about problems it had with audio synch issues and various cameras. The problems seem to have subsided with the appearance of Premiere 6.

Premiere 6, while not quite living up to its direct handling of DV on all occasions, has made it easier for the capture card manufacturers to do their jobs well. Definitely worth it.

A final option...go Macintosh. I recommend Matrox RTMac. This bundles Final Cut and is very nice all around, but lacks many of the 3D features you find on RT2000/2500.

If you are interested in a RT2000 boardset let me know. I am looking to upgrade to either DV Storm or Video Toaster NT and may be willing to part with mine for ~$800 US. Email if interested.

FWIW: Both GL1 and XL1 clips show as 29.97 on my system with premiere 6.01. Capture card is DV.now AV. Captrure was using Dazzle/FAST's FASTForward set for Canon source.

Takeshi, I use a DV500 with my XL1 and it works fine. It took some sorting out initally but I'm pretty happy with it now. If your interested in having a look at it I live in Chigasaki and you can contact me through my website. Use the English speakers phone number as your English seems very good and you can speak to me directly.

Just imported some footage from my xl1s into my g4 using premiere 6.0 and the frame rate is fine. Let me know if you want me to check anything for you. I think the suggestion about the 1394 card might be a viable one. It might be worth your time to investigate it.

Is anyone using a 1394 plain 'ol generic Firewire card to capture video into Premiere? This is what I have been doing and it sounds like it is the source of my trouble. You all seem to using capture cards that are branded (Canopus, RT2000, DV Storm, etc).

I'm using an ADS Pyro firewire card, capturing into Premier 6 from a GL-1. Once I get home, I'll check the frame rate. I haven't noticed any drifting of audio though...

This response is for Alexander Ibrahim.

Alexander, I read your response to this thread. Although I know you love your XL-1 (I mean who wouldn't!), this is an XL-1 problem. Now aside from the fact that Apple's Final Cut Pro has the "Auto sync function" to deal with the fact that some Canon cameras are slightly off spec with their audio sample rate, I have a test to prove the problem is with the camera and not Premiere or Final Cut Pro.
1. Capture video on the XL-1 and then use a different DV device to playback the tape for capture in Premiere ( a JVC or Sony or even a Canon camera like the ZR10). The file is captured by Premiere at 29.9x fps.
2. Now record some video on the JVC or Sony or the Canon ZR10. Capture that footage into Premiere. The file is captured at 29.97. You can even use the XL-1 to playback the video recorded on these other cameras and Premiere will capture the video at 29.97
As you can see, the problem is recorded on to the tape by the camera. This problem is very specific to a few Canon camera that were made within spefic time periods. This can also happen with GL-1's, Optura's, and Elura's however it most often happens on XL-1's. Here are some links to Final Cut Pro's site where this very subject is discussed.

http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/faq.html#Anchor18
http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor17
http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor15

Don't be so negative. Sometimes tech support does know what they're talking about.

I can add that there is no problem using the XL1 and Premiere 6 with me. I have a Canopus DVRex RT system.. I highly endorse Canopus if you go in that direction. Email me for any specifics.

In regards to Jack Mitchell's post:

I have never seen or used an XL-1 that exhibits this problem with any capture software or hardware except Premiere 6 on generic IEEE devices, like OHCI cards on the PC or the built in Firewire on Macs. On the same hardware where I experienced this problem with Premiere 6, I got solid captures using StudioDV, MainConcept MainActor and Ulead MediaStudio Pro. On this hardware the only cameras I could get to work properly with Premiere 6 were Sony VX1000 and VX2000 units. I also tried JVC DV500, Canon GL-1, DSR-300, and a JVC SR-VS10U deck.

It is possible that there is more than one cause that gives this symptomology. The one I experienced is a software issue with Premiere 6. Your problem description may in fact be accurate, but it would have to be an additional issue from what I am discussing.

If what you describe is only exhibited on a small number of XL-1's for a short manufactured period, then I would recommend any owner of such an XL-1 have it serviced. This would have to be a Camera software issue and Canon will update the software during service.

No software should be trusted to synch audio and video which may not be recorded at identical frame rates, nor should it be trusted to automatically retime any input source.

Finally, having been in tech support I do know they can be right, because I made it a point to always be right. I also know how often my co-workers were dead wrong and how often they would flat out lie. ( I would call it an industry epidemic, and one of the reasons I am out of the computer racket.) In any case I never said anything about the people at tech support anywhere...only that I felt it was a software issue in Premiere 6 based on my empirical observations and tests.

I posted earlier that I'd check my frame rate and it's right on the money... 29.97 using an ADS Pyro firewire card (the cheapest I could find), Premiere 6.0, and an XL-1...

Here is some feedback I received from one of the high level Techs at Premiere concerning this issue:

"Robin,

Nice bit of homework. However, don't believe everything you read on those postings. In response to your question, yes that's mostly true. There is only one exception that I'm aware of and that's the Matrox Digisuite series. It too suffers from this issue. That's because that particular series of cards break the video signal into separate .avi and .wav files. Since there is a sampling rate problem, the .wav files get out of sync with the associated .avi files which are basing the frame rate on the sampling rate. Of all the other certified cards, there are no others that have reported this problem.

P.S. I'd have posted this myself on the net community forum but ran short of time. You might suggest this test (especially to "This is a *Premiere* problem) - Capture footage on the Canon XL-1 then put the tape into another DV device, e.g. A Sony or JVC camera or Deck. Now try capturing the video in Premiere through the 1394 card. What happens is this. The footage is captured at 29.9X fps. Now record some footage on the Sony or JVC camera or deck that you used to play back the Canon XL-1 footage. That footage recorded on the Sony or JVC captures at 29.97 fps and consequently plays in sync. What that proves is this: the problem is encoded on the tape. It has nothing to do with Premiere liking one camera over another. In fact, this doesn't happen with all XL-1's or GL-1's or Optura's or Elura's. It only happens on a few cameras, made within a specific time frame. Anyway, just my little rant. Maybe I'll go back later and post something myself."

I will try to contact someone at Canon for some answers. I will you all posted.

Hi,

I've been watching this thread with interest since I use Premiere 6, have a Pyro Platinum card installed and intend on purchasing an XL1/XL1s sometime soon.

It's been more than two weeks and I wonder if there are any new developments regarding the 29.9x issue.

Tim

I spoke with Canon one last time to explain in more detail my problem and they have asked me to send the camera back because there is "something" that they would like to try. They would not explain what they wanted to do but they did re-assure me that it would not be anything that would harm the operation of the camera. I will lose a week of shooting with it so I am waiting for a break in my schedule to send it to them. I will let you know what happened after it is returned.
In the meantime I have obtained a DV500 card and will install this in my system and capture some of the footage I took with the Canon to see if the same 29.95fps problem occurs.(This will be done when I have a break in my editing schedule).
I will keep you "posted".

Well, i was incorrect when I earlier stated that my XL-1 was capturing at 29.97 into Premiere via a Pyro firewire card. I was looking in the wrong location and dumping tape that out of sync audio wouldn't be readily apparent. I have new footage and it is VERY obvious. I discovered that it is dumping at 29.96 FPS. This is isolated to the XL-1 though, both GL-1's are fine. Let us know what they come up with Robin...

Hi,

I'm following up on this thread again to see if the frame rate question has been resolved yet. What's the latest?

Thank you.

Tim

Hopefully it's positive, mine went off to be serviced for the same thing.

aibrahim:

I have captured clips up to 30 minutes in length on my Mac using OS9 with NO problems. Unless you get a really slow-ass Mac, then there is no need to worry about OS9 screwing up your work. And if you have a Mac, chances are that you will be using Final Cut Pro or at least iMovie (free). Why use Premiere if you don't have to?

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Redifer : aibrahim:
Why use Premiere if you don't have to? -->>>
it blends in well with Aftereffects?
red

Brad DeWees,

Please keep us advised on what happens with your camera... I'm most interested in what Canon does to it. Should come back with a slip of paper describing exactly what changes or mods were done. Thanks,

Will do.
-Brad

I ran into the same trouble with my xl-1 and premiere.
I found out the problem to be using a plain old firewire port in premiere. When i capture using my dv500 everything is in sync at 29.97 but if i use premiere and my fire wire port in my audigy then i get 29.96.
CRAZY.

I have been fighting the A/V sync issue in the XL-1 since June. I started with a Canopus DV Raptor capture card and now have a Pinnacle DV500+ installed. On both cards, long capture clips (event video) are substantially out of sync toward the end of the clip in Premiere 6.01. My research seems to indicate that the XL-1 samples audio at something like 48.006 and this causes the drift. Pinnacle claims to have solved the problem with their V3.0 software which is dowloadable from their site. Despite the claim, the problem still exists with the DV500.

I have captured a 40-minute clip shot in June from the XL-1 and from the Panasonic AG-DV1000. Out of sync on both. I striped a new cassette, shoved the XL-1 in front of the TV and recorded 40-minutes of talking heads. Captured it. Out of sync on both.

Then I found the solution! Go to www.scenalyzer.com and download the sclive demo. Besides being a slick clip capture program with many features, long XL-1 takes are in perfect sync right out to the end of the tape.

The demo is the actual program with logo windows that pop up randomly but you can try it and use all the features. The best part is, $33 gets you the download that clears the pop-ups and you're off and running immediatly! I'm still celebrating.

The program doesn't take up a lot of space and really does a lot which leads me to believe that this guy wrote some pretty tight and clean code.

I will second the supportive opinion for SCLive. It will scrub thru captured files very easily and also snaps a still frame at the press of the F2 key. It's a VERY nice program, and will even capture files with an .scn clip file so I can import the result into Pinnacle Studio 7. I am now using this almost exclusively for my captures. One more nice feature is the ability to do time lapse capture.

OK, I'm stepping off my soapbox nw.

Robin, et. al.

Unless I've misunderstood the problem or missed the answer here is mine: there's nothing wrong with an NTSC frame rate of 29.97. In the NTSC system there is actually no such thing as 30 fps - not since "compatible" color was developed for NTSC in the early 1950s.

Originally the 30fps was an ingenious way to maintain sync in a very "cheap" way between originating camera and home tv receiver since they both had one thing in common- 60 cycle AC (hence 60 fields). This worked perfectly as long as all we had was black and white television transmission and reception. But when color came in, "room" had to be made to accomodate the color information - that .03 of a second is where the color burst is contained. That's the way NTSC dealt with developing a system that could still work with b&w and color symultaneously.

PAL which is a much newer and, in many ways, better system doesn't "suffer"from this (PAL is also based on 25fps since European AC is 50cycles.) Most people just ignore the .03 difference and refer to the NTSC as 30fps since it doesn't make any difference what we call it and it's an easier number to remember. Premiere is actually giving you the actual frame rate. I'm surprised no one at Adobe was able to give you the simple answer. It makes me wonder how much they know about TV to begin with.

Bottom line - there's nothing wrong. The NTSC color system is really 29.97 fps. In today's digital world that tid bit of information seems a little anachronistic but it's the truth.

I just got SCLIVE and I think that its a great program!
Has anybody figured out how to capture the audio2 channel?
I have an XL-1 and my source footage has audio on channel2 but i don't see any options on SClive to capture it.

<<<-- Originally posted by kizersosay : I just got SCLIVE and I think that its a great program!
Has anybody figured out how to capture the audio2 channel?
I have an XL-1 and my source footage has audio on channel2 but i don't see any options on SClive to capture it. -->>>

Havn't played with it enough yet but I'd go to the FAQ page at the Scenalyzer site and use the FEEDBACK button to get an answer. It's a well thought out program so I'm sure the capability is there.

I asked the folks at Scenalyzer and they sent me a link to a new version of SClive that does support the second channel of audio when recording at 32khz.
I will try it out tonight.

<<<-- Originally posted by kizersosay : I asked the folks at Scenalyzer and they sent me a link to a new version of SClive that does support the second channel of audio when recording at 32khz.
I will try it out tonight. -->>>


I'd be interested in the results and, if it works, the link. I often use the Audio 1 and Audio 2 inputs..usually Audio 1 with the on-camera mike for ambience and the Audio 2 (with the adapter) with a hand or wireless mike. Doing a shoot tonight where I will use a line feed from an in-house audio system into Audio 2.

I borrowed a DV500 board from a friend and just completed the installation in my system after removing the "plain vanilla 1394" card(made by Belkin) I have been using for Premiere 6. The DV500 card captures the footage at 29.97 unlike the Belkin which seems to have been the cause of the problem(maybe?). The good news is that the problem follows the PC and not the camera. I am leaning towards Premiere as being the source of the problem since it is making a claim of being able to capture with just a firewire card. I will run a few other tests and keep you all abreast of the developments, if you are interested.
What a pain in the butt!
I have only captured a few seconds with the DV500 but I will start a 1hr capture and see what happens.

The 29.9x problem does lies with Premiere's difficulty to capture footage using a 1394 card. I tried a few different tests and the problem follows the premiere software. I downloaded the scenalyzer, captured a few clips, dropped them into Premiere and voila! 29.97!!. Premiere is aware of this problem since they are the ones that sent me to the scenalyer website. I am a bit unhappy about the way this whole scenario progressed. My camera has been to Canon 4 times because of this problem! The third time the camera came back not functioning properly.
The bottom line is that you very likely will have improper frame rates if you capture with a plai 'ol 1394 card. So either use a capture card(canopus, Matrox, etc...) or try this Scenalyer software.
Thanks to all of you for your input into this problem, it's great to have a place like this.
For those of you in Tech Support, be upfront with us, if there is a problem...say so! Time is money!

I guess my dissertation on 29.97 has not been read or no one agrees or I'm barking up the wrong tree?

The post appears earlier in this thread. The point is that 29.97fps IS the correct rate for NTSC color. It has been that way since 1952 (or was it 1948?) when NTSC agreed on a compatible color standard for its system. We work with Premiere quite a bit and have never been bothered by the 29.97 fps it gives you. Maybe Adobe should just make everyone feel happy and change the readout to 30fps.

Let me ask everyone this - has the 29.97fps in Premiere ever caused any real problems besides confusing everyone?

is the issue 29.97 vs. 30.00 or is it 29.95 vs. 29.97?
seems to me the problem is 29.95, which will result in audio sync probs. and non-compatibility with NTSC standard

Ozzie., While the information you gave us was very interesting, I don't think you read the entire thread because you missed some key points from earlier posts.

We know that Premiere is supposed to capture at 29.97. The problem is that it's not in all cases. Mine for example, was reporting a capture rate of 29.96. Other's were capturing at 29.95.

In cases where the capture rate was something other than 29.97, the audio gets out of sync. And THAT is the problem.
-Brad

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad_DeWees : ...I don't think you read the entire thread because you missed some key points from earlier posts.<<<

You are quite right. I stand corrected.

<<<--We know that Premiere is supposed to capture at 29.97. The problem is that it's not in all cases. Mine for example, was reporting a capture rate of 29.96. Other's were capturing at 29.95.

In cases where the capture rate was something other than 29.97, the audio gets out of sync. And THAT is the problem.
-Brad -->>>

If that's the case then I still feel it's a read out problem. If the sync is anything less than the correct one you'd be having more than just audio problems. A time base corrector can perform miracles but it corrects the entire signal. If the picture is not rolling over or being pulled to the side (all signs of sync problems) I would look elsewhere for the problem. There have been times, even with Avids, when we've had to slide the audio track a few frames (usually 4) to get the audio in sync. We've never been able to track the source of the problem (with Avid) since it has been more of a nuisance than a big problem.

Caveat emptor - I could be completely wrong since my basis for analyzing the problem is primarily in the analog world, not digital, which has progressed more rapidly than I can keep up with.

Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack

I tend to avoid Premier like the plague. Dunno how many times this has saved me endless hours of grief.

Hey, Ozzie--

Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself!

Cheers, Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Hey, Ozzie-- Speaking of "Compatible Color", remember the old CBS system with the rotating wheel? It wasn't compatible (thus its non-acceptance), but the colors were sure better back then.

Uh, oh--I'm dating myself! Cheers, Vic -->>>

You are certainly dating yourself. I was still in diapers then. A bit of trivia - the CBS rotating wheel was a cheaper and better system to produce color. The problem - it wasn't compatible which the FCC demanded. BUT - that cheap and simple system did find its way into the space program and the first COLOR pictures from the moon were captured using that very same system.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Mitchell : Robin,

You said that the last time your camera came back from Canon it was broken. The fact is the that when you bought your camera from Canon your camera was broken. Your camera is recording at an off sampling rate instead of a true 48000 kHz. You've proved that several times over with all of your testing. If you play back a tape that you've recorded in your XL-1 in any other camera or deck, it will capture at the 29.96. If you play a tape on your XL-1 that you've recorded in any other DV device, it will capture at 29.97. You're in serious denial. Premiere bases it's frame rate count on the sampling rate of the video clip. Granted, probably not the best thought out design. But, if your camera was doing things correctly to begin with, you wouldn't be having this problem.

If the trained monkeys at Canon broke your camera broke your camera the last time you sent it in, I'm confused about why you continue to have so much faith in their ability to give good technical advice.

As for the tip for using Scenalyzer, that came directly from this forum. Obviously Adobe monitors this forum looking for ways to help folks like you. Can you say that about Canon?

- Jack -->>>

The Canon XL-1 audio sampling rate has been reported by people smarter than I as being 48.006 and that is what causes the drift on long clips.

The 29.97 frame rate came along with the compatibility issue when color TV came out. The "drop frame" actually adjusts the time code using a set formula. There are a number of good explanations of this on the web. Do a Google.

It's not even an issue with me any more. Scenalyzer Live solved the problem and it's a darn good capture utility with superb machine control and analog capture to boot.

...and yes, the old RGB color wheel camera did make that first trip to the moon. Remember the three color plastic sheets that you pasted over the B&W tv screen to get "color"?

I, too, am old.

Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!)

Vic

<<<-- Originally posted by Vic Owen : Wow! That's fascinating...I wasn't aware of that. As I recall, it wasn't compatible with B&W, so rejected. I can remember promos mentioning "RCA Compatible Color" or something like that. I was born in the early 40s, so I must have been close to diapers then, as well. (Some would say we're close now!) Vic -->>>

LOL! Good to see another "old foggie" interested in new toys. I've never outgrown them. My 14 year old son keeps reminding me of that. By the way, I was born right smack in the middle of the 40s, and I hope I'm still a long way from diapers.

I beg your pardon. I was born in 1948...and not an "old foggie" yet. Maybe it's those three extra years ya got on me, Ozzie.....LOL