I've finally completed the series on 5D Mark II audio, including the final conclusions.

Here's the list of videos:

Part 1: Boom Mic - 1. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Boom Mic (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5370880)
Part 2: Camera Mounted Mic - 2. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - On Camera (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5388476)
Part 3: Wireless Lavalier - 3. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Wireless Lav on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5443143)
Part 4: Foley - 4. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Foley on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5453690)
Part 5: Noise - 5. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Noise on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5474562)
Part 6: Conclusions - 6. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Conclusions on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5903379)

I learned a lot about what it takes to do a docu-explainer style video. This will come in handy for an upcoming project...

My wife recently published her first novel. Here's a review: http://www.kaysbookshelf.com/2009/08/the-saint-and-the-fasting-girl-anna-richenda/

We will produce some videos describing life in the 16th century in order to promote the book. I hope that she's more comfortable in front of the camera than I am!

Awesome reviews Jon, exactly what I was looking for, very good for a noob.

John very nice work. That was a heck of an undertaking and a nice review of these low cost options.

Thanks a lot Jon for that really useful series.

Jon,
Great stuff! What is the purpose of the beer other than just being an awesome way to spend your time? How can I get this job :) Anyway, very cool. I couldn't really hear the difference in any of them, but I try not to pay attention to subtelty, it gets in the way of being effecient! Thanks again.
BIll

VERY nicely done! Thanks for the hard work. Now go hoist another one on me!

Bill,

On the first five videos, you can download the uncompressed wav file. Play that through good monitors or headphones (or loud on cheap ones!) and you'll definitely hear the difference.

BTW, the beer helped the "talent" get more comfortable on camera. ;)

Jon, I am using the Sennheiser EW100 G2 as well. It is used in conjunction with the battery
grip either on a tripod or Glidecam rig. This precludes using the juicedlink. Will this
not allow me to get a good signal from the EW100, even with the most recent version of ML?

Tom;

I have run a battery powered ximple Sony 907 stereo mic into the 5D. I have to have the gain turn up to 18 on the digital side, and 32 (?) or so on the analog side. Get a definite hiss that way, but it is removable with a filter. I have heard that some of the powered mics receivers output an amped signal, so you may be fine.

Jon, I am using the Sennheiser EW100 G2 as well. It is used in conjunction with the battery
grip either on a tripod or Glidecam rig. This precludes using the juicedlink. Will this
not allow me to get a good signal from the EW100, even with the most recent version of ML?

I tested with the rack mount version of the G2 receiver, so I'm not 100% sure. If the receiver puts out line level, you can pad it down and should get a great result using Magic Lantern. If it's mic level, it depends on how hot the signal is.

when you use the Juicelink is ther improvement in performance only with an external mic? Does it improve camera audio using the built in Canon Mic too or only with an external shotgun or XLR?

And what is the relationship between the Juicelink and the Magic Lantern Firmware. Will I see audio improvements if I don't use the firmware?

The juicedLink is only for external XLR mics. It provides phantom power for the mics, boosts the signal without adding noise, and provides a 1/8" plug to the camera.

The current version of Magic Lantern only works with external mics. The next version will let you choose the internal mic and set a fixed gain. The Canon firmware always has autogain.

A huge problem with the internal mic is that it picks up noise from image stabilization as well as when you focus or zoom.

Based on Jon's tests here, and my experience thus far with Magic Lantern and Juiced Link, my plans to maximize sound potential out of this camera shoot is as follows:

1. Solo shoots,: Juiced Link, camera with boom mic, off camera mic stand with mic close to talent, or in case of interviews, AT 899 lapel mic. Monitor at camera using volume controlled Boostaroo head pone, or if monitonring video, though that using the video monitor audio volume control. Back this up with my Eng44 feeding the Juiced Link at appropriate levels if the shooting set up requires mics to be off of talent too much.

2. Crewed: I will go a double system, but also feed camera with a good signal. I would feed recorder off my Eng44 through stereo miniplug out put, and also feed Juiced Link or Beachtek with balanced cable or cables from the Eng. I will monitor camera levels with Boostaroo set up and Magic Lantern Level meters, adjusting with Juiced Link trim dials and level switches, and sound guy will monitor recorder. If sound in camera is subsequently as good as recorder version, I will have avoided synch in post. Other wise I will at least have a pilot track. I have been using a Sony HIMD minidisk set at PCM level recording, with good success as my off camera recorder when needed.

Great set of videos, Jon.
They are very much appreciated.

Chris and Jon:
Thanks for the info. I am running the ew 100 receiver that resembles the transmitter (not the rack) so it can ride on the hot shoe of the 5D. It is powered. I will see what happens and let you know.

Great work John, very generous and useful. Thanks!

Thanks for the hard work on lining up those audio solutions, and letting us hear the results - because of your testing I selected the H4n for the project I am shooting this weekend. I am sitting in a hotel room in NY right now waiting for Sunday to roll around. We are using two Mark II bodies with the H4n to do interviews of the new drafts coming into the NBA this year. The audio in my tests sounds super clear, and seems to sync fairly easy in post. I'll have to update you guys after the shoot.

Wish us luck!

-Brad

For what it is worth :-


30P origination slow-moed to 25P in a Premiere CS3 project, ie., extended, then exported yielded a smooth motion in 25P. Audio can be extended with pitch maintainerd to match but expect some aliases and artifacts. Better result from separate audio software than from stretching within the timeline.

Percentage numbers to work with were 8.333 and 120.

Have decided to go for the Juiced link and this tests by Jon has definitely made it a clear choice by miles. Thanks Jon for the wonderful works.

Bill,


BTW, the beer helped the "talent" get more comfortable on camera. ;)

LOL! Talent *did* look a bit nervous. More beer next time!

Great videos though.

Your wife's link is dead.

LOL! Talent *did* look a bit nervous. More beer next time!

Maybe my next review should use something stronger. I wonder what kind of mic is best for gin and tonic?

Your wife's link is dead.

One of her domains has had inexplicable DNS problems for months. The host and DNS service both claim everything is fine, but it only works from some networks.

BTW, her book got a new review yesterday, and it's excellent!
Book Review: The Saint and the Fasting Girl | The Inspiratorium (http://dmorton.ca/blog/2009/08/the-saint-and-the-fasting-girl/)

I don't want to be the guy defending his purchase in light of clear facts pointing out other gear is better... but it seemed to me (from what I heard) that the MicroTrack sounded better on the dialogue than the Zoom when correct mic placement was used - ie: the close shotgun and the lavalier. I probably wouldn't be concerned about recording foley into the camera or one of these portable units, as I'd do that in our recording studio into my laptop.

Am I wrong in this assessment?

Obviously for ease of use it seems that the JuicedLink with ML firmware is the way to go - but it doesn't seem like in your tests (and from what I've heard from our shoots) that the MicroTrack is all that noisy with good mic placement.

Well, noise is relative. With a strong signal, the MicroTrack II does fine, but if you ever have to boost things in post, it's really noisy. It also has a strange repeating noise pattern that you can hear at high gain.

I bought mine in January, and we filmed a short film with it in February and March that we submitted to the Seattle International Film Festival. (We didn't get in - there were 150 spots and over 3,000 submissions.) Our mic isn't as hot as the borrowed ME80, and with medium shots, we couldn't get the mic as close as I had it in the video (about six inches over my head.)

I wasn't the sound guy, but I did all of the composing and audio post work. I set up my system (with large 15" monitors) for mixing for a theater. The noise was not acceptable on *any* clip or take. I ended up applying custom noise reduction to every single clip of audio. Fortunately, SF9 was able to do a good job, without too much of an underwater sound. It was the most effective when we had just dialog and hiss, and least effective when there was traffic or other noise in the signal.

I've also tested the MicroTrack II with the juicedLink as a front end. The results are MUCH better, and you get XLR inputs and real analog gain controls.

One of the design flaws (aside from no way to mount the thing and a captive battery) is that the MicroTrack II gain controls are digital. Reduce the gain, and the signal clips before full scale. Increase the gain, and you just boost the noise and reduce dynamic range. The device really needs a preamp or mixer upstream, which defeats the whole purpose of having phantom power on board. One might as well buy a cheaper digital recorder with a 1/8" input, since you need a juicedLink or some other active preamp/mixer anyway.

It cracks me up that the MicroTrack II can record 24-bit audio. With it's noise level, it doesn't come close to 16-bits.

BTW, I also do foley recording in the studio whenever possible. But sometimes you want to record a stream, the surf, birds, or the murmur of a crowd, or some other thing that requires field recording. Having a dead silent noise floor makes it easy to get good results without any fuss in post.

Anyway, I can't recommend the MicroTrack II for a new purchase, even though I bought and own one. If you already have one, I strongly recommend using it with a mixer/preamp to help tame the noise and provide a usable gain control. Leave the Microtrack II gain at 50% and never touch it again. I also recommend applying sticky-back Velcro for mounting purposes. It ships with a belt-loop carrying case, but the case doesn't provide access to the controls or I/O. Heck, it doesn't even have built-in mics for recording lectures and such. (It ships with a stereo, plug-in, electret mic - that doesn't fit in the carrying case.)

Aside from the larger size and slightly higher price, the Zoom H4n beats the MicroTrack II feature after feature. I only borrowed the Zoom for one day (thanks Brian!), and was really impressed. For it, the phantom power feature is actually useful.

Thanks for the reply - that is very good information to have. Unfortunately there are times when purchases are made around here in the "Ready, Shoot, Aim" mode and then we wind up with gear that isn't quite what we need... Now to try and talk the powers that be into a juicedlink...

I know what you mean about equipment purchases - especially if a committee (or a hierarchy) is involved!

I bought the Microtrack II because of the balanced inputs and phantom power. It was between that and the original H4. The deciding factor was that one showed up locally on Craigslist with all the parts and the box in perfect condition for $140. :)

Given that we have the juicedLink, I'll keep the Microtrack II for now to use with the preamp for when we need to go untethered. For the 48-hour film project this weekend, we plan on recording into the camera as much as possible. Besides the better sound quality, not having to sync saves precious time!

Hey Jon, good luck on the 48 hour... I would probably been doing the same thing this weekend except for my health deal.... I have doen San Jose on this weekend last two years.

Hey, John...have you checked out the Tascam DR-100 compared to the H4N?

Unfortunately, I haven't had my hands on a Tascam recorder outside NAB. I used to have a contact there. It would have been way cool to compare it to the H4n.

I've finally completed the series on 5D Mark II audio

Jon, as I've told you a few times before -- I always admire your insight & knowledge, and appreciate that you take the time to share it all with us. Though, in the case of this audio thread, I blush to confess that I haven't yet read it due to time constrains -- since I'm an on/off reader & poster on this forum, the interesting threads that grow too large for me get bookmarked for a rainy day. But the little I've skimmed over looks like very valuable info, hence, I can't wait for the rainy season to start. [Chris, I suggest that you change Jon's status to 'Wizard Status']

-- peer

Thanks Peer!

Rather than read, watch and listen! Here are the links...
1. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Boom Mic (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5370880)
2. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - On Camera (juicedLink, Zoom H4n, Microtrack II, BeachTek) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5388476)
3. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Wireless Lav on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5443143)
4. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Foley on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5453690)
5. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Noise on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5474562)
6. Canon 5D Mark II Audio Exposed - Conclusions on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5903379)

Unfortunately, I haven't had my hands on a Tascam recorder outside NAB. I used to have a contact there. It would have been way cool to compare it to the H4n.

Jon,

I have a Tascam DR-100 on loan from the distributor. We're in the same state so if I send it to you, it would arrive the next day. If you'd like to use it for 2-3 days to run some tests before I have to send it back, you're more than welcome.

Wow. Thanks, Guy.

Unfortunately, I think I'll have to pass for now, as the day job and another project have me consumed. Also, I no longer have the H4n (it was borrowed), and that's the recorder that I'd most like to hear in a head to head comparison.

What I'd really love to hear these up against is one of the Sound Devices recorders. As SD is the gold standard, I'd love to know where these affordable recorders really stand.

Anyway, thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.

All the best!

Hey, Guy, have you done anything at all with the Tascam with external mics? The only negative thing I've read about is that one person said it seemed to want more gain. I'd like to know if you can get decent levels without cranking up all the way with a normal short shotgun. One of the problems with my older Microtrack is that you have to go as high as you can to just get a useable level.

...One of the problems with my older Microtrack is that you have to go as high as you can to just get a useable level.

I have the Microtrack II, and its gain is digital. I'd assume that that the older one has no variable analog gain either. You can test this by lowering the gain below 50% and screaming into your mic. If you see hard clipping in the middle of the digital range, it's proof that the gain is after the A/D.

This means that you should leave the Microtrack II gain at 50% at all times for the best dynamic range. Any gain can be applied in post with the same results as in the MT.

We now use the juicedLink CX231 as a front end to the MT2. It's still slightly noisier than the H4n, but very close in overall performance.

Thanks for all the hard work in your research, John!

After going over all your extensive research, I bought a Zoom H4n; it fulfills more of my needs in the filed, and so far I'm very, very impressed.

Thank you again for all your hard work,

Frank

Dear Jon,
I bought my 5DMKII when it first came out and since I watched my first video and noticed that loud hiss. Since then I have read everything you released and I have to thankyou for educating me so well. I shoot live music; mostly songwriters in concert. I've tried many different setups and think I've found the best for my line of work. I use a matched pair of Schoeps MK4's that go into a NBOX pre-amp. I use a -20dB attenuator and plug this directly into the camera. I also run a separate Sound Devices 744T recorder with a Sound Device USBPre2 preamp directly off the soundboard. I dump the video and audio onto my hard drive and then I use Final Cut Pro with Plural Eyes to sync the soundboard audio with the audio recorded by the 5DMKII. It takes less than 5 minutes and I am done. I keep the soundboard audio in the middle of the mix and each mic that was recorded my the 5DMKII panned left or right.
I tried Juicelink, Korg M-1, Sony m-10 as well as a host of other products and while most were pretty good, they all had their drawbacks. I suggest your readers look at the newly released USBPre2 from Sound Device. It is the best all around preamp for recording into a recorder or computer that is portable and requires no power. Hope this is of benefit to you and your readers of which, I am one. Peace, Joe Ray Skrha

Great tip! I'll definitely check out the Sound Device USBPre2, probably at NAB in April...