hi,

That last post a couple of days ago abouty recording sound on Mini Disc has really piqued my interest. Does anybody know anything about this? Links, what is a good recorder, thing like that, i am in the middle of shooting a movie and like this idea.


Thanks


Tony

It works. For more information on MiniDISC than any one person can digest try the minidisc community poge:
http://www.minidisc.org/

Which recorder depends on your budget, but if in profesional work where you can control the action consider one of the professional models with real mic inputs.

While mini disks are extremely versatile, I couldn't find one that would hold much audio. I ended up with a harddisk recorder/mixer that holds up to something like 18 hrs of cd quality on one track, with twelve tracks available.

It cost almost $1000, and is a bit bulky, but I love it. I can run XLR inputs or 1/4" jacks into it, and hook it up to any house board for better audio than any camera could ever get. It's definately worth the cost and effort to record your audio seperately.
Keith

Any of the Sony recordable MD's are good bang for you buck. I'm not sure about outside Japan but a blank MD will only set you back about US$2. They hold 74mins of compressed audio and I've found the Sony ones to be really good.

I have 2 MiniDisc players (one is for sale or trade cheap, see classified section).

The main one I use is a model MZ-N1, which cost me about $600cdn/$400us.

The one I have for sale is the MZ-R909, which is worth about $300us (I'm selling mine for $200, new).

I purchased the more expensive one as a personal music player for use while snowboarding. It's got better features for recording music from MP3 format. The MZ-R909 model is a good all purpose recorder/player, and a better value if you are just using it to record sound. And they are TINY. About the size of a 3.5" disc, only thicker, of course.

And while not recommended for serious recording, at maximum compression, a minidisc will hold 5 hours of music.

Minidisc is a great format for field aquisition as well as post production work. I have a Marantz PDM650 which is designed for broadcast professional use. It has XLR mic inputs, 48V phantom power for condenser mics, extensive editing functions, and writes the TOC automatially.

It is larger then the pocket recorders, but is quite rugged.

I use it for two track live recording with a pair of quality studio mics (AT4050's) and have gotten excellent results.

Cheers...

Buford,
How much was your MD?

I saw it listed at the B&H Photo Web Site for $999.00, which is about what I paid for it. Compared to the consumer machines, it is pricy, but for day to day field work and its feature set, I felt it was worth it.

My only comment is that it does eat batteries, so I use the AC adapter whenever possible.

Cheers...

thanks guys it helps. Has anyone sent it to a computer to edit the dialouge? Does it sound ok? I app all the help

Whenever you use a dedicated audio device, it stands to reason that it will sound much better than the audio your camera will record. They are designed to do one thing only, and that is record sound.

Cameras are built with passable audio qualities, but they focus on the video aspect, and not the audio. If they were to design a camera with equal consideration to sound quality, they would be huge, and have XLR jacks, not mini-plugs or RCA, and require a better medium than tape.

Whether you use a small MD, or a larger mixer/hard disk recorder, you'll come out ahead.

I recently used a Sony MD for the first time. Wired up the groom with a wireless and dropped the Sony in the preacher's pocket. Turn out I used the MD recording as it was better than the wireless due to several cell phones in the audience.

I am considering the purchase of a "professional recording solution" for doing mostly event videography and some production work as well. I am up in the air about MiniDisc, DAT or hard disk recorders??? I have been researching them all lately and it isnt helping my decision....

I like the idea of professional MD but I am a little concerned about he 44.1 sample rate and the ATRAC compression...

I like the idea of the fullness and quality of DAT audio but am not convinced about its place in the "field" with all the new recorders coming out. I also dont like the fact that the DAT machines have heads to contend with and the media is also linear...

Hard drive recorders sound neat, seem to do everything I would need but I have not heard much on their use yet as they are still pretty new, as far as sound quality, file formats, etc.... I was looking at the Marantz PMD-690, has anyone head much on this unit?

anyway, im just confused.... any help would be greatly appreciated! I guess I want great audio quailty and a format that is going to be around in the next 5 years.

thanks,
Chris

Be sure it has battery back up!!!!!!!

I too, am looking down these paths. But who can predict 5 years from now, in this business. I am leaning towards DAT because of its staying power. It's been around about 10 years and I don't see it going away real soon because of its established professional base. DV is linear, so I don't view that as a major issue. I definetly need battery power and a lighter unit in the field than a HD recorder. I also prefer 48KHz audio. None of these are perfect, but I'm leaning towards DAT.

Jeff

<<<-- Originally posted by jtdonald : I too, am looking down these paths. But who can predict 5 years from now, in this business. I am leaning towards DAT because of its staying power. It's been around about 10 years and I don't see it going away real soon because of its established professional base. DV is linear, so I don't view that as a major issue. I definetly need battery power and a lighter unit in the field than a HD recorder. I also prefer 48KHz audio. None of these are perfect, but I'm leaning towards DAT.

Jeff -->>>

Jeff,

I am also looking strongly at DAT. My current sound capture device is a MiniDisc, which works great. The problem is that my MiniDisc is old and instead of updating it, I would prefer to get a new system. I missed out on a great deal on eBay, which had an entire audio DAT system put together. So now I am waiting for another one to appear.

What DAT models are you considering?

As for battery backup, I saw a product called Eco-Charge which looks like a small sealed external battery that has various connectors for most all recorders. http://www.ecocharge.com/bplus.htm

Its funny becaue all the faults I find with DAT are inherent with MiniDV like magnetic media, recording heads and the mechanical tape transport... So I guess DAT wouldn't be such a bad choice for the next few years. Like you said Jeff, who knows whats going to be around in 5 years.

Although most my jobs wont really require the higher sample rate, I really dont want to be limited by it either. The Marantz PMD-690 does seem to be the other contender now though... It can capture straight, uncompressed PCM audio at several sample rates, solid state so no heads or transports to break, media is not magnetic. I just wish there was some real world reports on its performace in the DV world...

I probably need to just go buy something and live with the fact that it will be much better than what I have now.

Chris

I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio.
Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?...
The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1.
I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations.

Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list (my the way DAT's use VCR tape transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range.

Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200.


If you have a laptop (compact one) with a Pent. III or Mac G3/G4 (incl. I-Book) and a basic audio program (protools free will work or an ASIO program is better), all you need is the Sounddevices USB Pre ($550) and you have a "hard disk recorder," a little larger, but the price is right and you have a high quality,
I too, have been looking at separate audio vs/ camera audio.
Digital Audio is "digital" too, so the media it is stored on does NOT degrade its image directly (it does affect its long-term storage, however) -- be it tape, disk or minidisk or ?...
The difference is the Digital Analog Converters and the sample rate and compression routine they use. Camera audio can be made as good as its video, their called Pro cameras, and have built in XLRs and yes they are half again to twice the size of a XL1. The Sony DCX series is one example (also almost twice the cost once configured).
I have ruled out mini-disk due to its compression and limitations. Next on my list is DAT, the Tascam DA-PA1 was high on my list, but DAT's use VCR tape and transport/head configs.) so have the can-be-knocked-out of alignment problem and must be kept clean. It is still a linear format. It is fairly compact and incorporates a two-channel mic/line audio w/monitoring and gets two hours on one recharge of built-in battery. The DA-PA1 is in the $1500 price range.

Then, I discovered "hard disk recording", it is non-linear, has newer DAC (can sample 24-bit/48 MHz and soon 96mhz should be avail. I found one unit made in England (will get name and model and post later), that was designed for radio/TV ENG use, is not much bigger than a mini-disk (uses 3.5 hard drive &7200 rpm), and has two-channel mic/line inputs. Price is around $1,200.

USB-powered DAC with audio and digital in/outs and very good mic. preamps. w/phantom power at a very affordable price; however, a little bigger than a dedicated portable HD recorder -- but you can feel the water before jumping in.

I am personally leaning towards the portable hard disk recorder, It is however, where the tech. is going -- tape medium sys are being shown the "back door" -- but tape is still good, just need to be careful with it -- the important issue is the DAC and its bit depth and sample rate --remember, everything is heading to floating 32-bit at 96mHz standard -- Mac's OSX 2.0 is set to provide this standard in its new sound manager! What next?

al.

Hard Drive recorders are practical for some situations and not others. I do a lot of field work where i have to carry equipment a good distance. The weight of the HD recorder and its dependence on larger batteries is a problem for me. I prefer something that can mount to the camera or to my belt. However HD recording in the studio, or more controlled situations, and where AC power is available makes a lot of sense. I don't worry about tape as a medium. I've used it for years, I know what to expect and whats expected of me. Keep things clean. As a recording medium it is very inexpensive.

Jeff

Jeff,
Your'e right, I also have been using tape for more than 30 years, at first that's all there was. Now things are changing, and soon we should have hard disk recorders that can go into the field just as conviently as tape does -- same size/weight package; until then, I'll keep recording on tape too -- on the camera. But when you need seperate audio, the new portable hard disk recorders are worth looking at.
Just given the choice of the portable dat vs a portable hard disk that was somewhat smaller and $200-$400 less money, I'm considering the disk unit.
There are many choices in audio, and they fit different requirements and situations -- only the end user can define what option is best for their situation.
al.

I do think everything is headed the way of hard disk too. Al, I would love to know which recorder you are referring to for $1200, I have spent days combing the net for viable solutions and have not come up with much... I did find the Maycom Easycorder which looks real nice and has great specs but I cant find good source for a price. Also the Sonifex Courier looks nice too!

I would also like to get some feedback on the marantz series of portable HD recorders but there doesnt seem to be much out there... They seem to be the most affordable units on the market that have profesional features.

I am so close to just jumping on the DA-P1 but I am afraid I will find some fantastic HD solution for a similar price, this is drving me crazy!

Has anyone tried Creative Nomad 20gb. It has a Line-In for direct stereo audio recording in WAV format from external devices and a usb.


http://www.nomadworld.com/products/Jukebox_20GB/

Whatever you end up looking to use, you might want to make sure it has decent inputs and outputs. I have XLR and 1/4" so that I can run good balanced mics, or even off of a house sound board.
Keith

It is a English-built unit, I may be a little off on the price, but I remember it being a little cheeper than the DAT. I will find my info sheet on this and post the name and source.

Regarding inputs, the device is only as good as its weekest link -- that usually means the ins/outs. At the least it sould have "bal" line ins and digitial out (hopefully via firewire).

I wouldnt consider a unit if it didnt have 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and some sort of digital interface like S/PDIF or firewire. Those two things are a necessity and they have all been on the units I am looking into. I found that the Sonifex Courier can record directly to AIFF format which I use in Final Cut Pro a lot, also does uncompressed audio in .wav.... It looks funny but I think it will more than get the job done!

http://www.sonifex.co.uk/courier/page.shtml

I will have to contact the US distributor and find out more about it.

Videohead,
Your'e right, you need 2 Bal. XLRs for L & R stereo recording and digitial out (pref. firewire) for inporting files into the editing program on any serious audio recording device.
The Sonifex Courier sounds like the one I may have been looking for, I'm on the search for the info sheet I had, and will post when I find it. al.

I have just recently talked with a few production sound companies in CA (Coffey Sound http://www.coffeysound.com was one of them) and they basically said DAT is still a widely used format but several compaines are starting to switch from DAT to the new high end Deva and Nagra HD recorders. Nobody had any input on the low end models in the 2k and under price range even though they sold them!... it doesnt seem that they have caught on yet at all. I did get several recommendations for professional MD & Tascam's DA-P1 though when I told them my budget.

If I only had 10k to spend... that Deva II is amazing! HHB is coming out with its Portadrive to compete with it this fall.

So unless I hear absolutely wonderful things from the US distributor about the Sonifex Courier when I talk to them on Monday, its a toss up between the HHB MDP-500 MD and the Tascam DA-P1 DAT...

Videohead,
That's interesting, seems we're out there on the edge of what's just around the corrner. Good luck with the distrib. on Monday, let me know what you find out. al.

I think there are at least a handfull of us with the same dilema. I've read review after review and looked at site after site looking for the ideal recorder. The downside to DAT for me is size, weight and cost of media. MD is smaller, lighter and if you buy in quanity, about $2 per disc. DAT has slightly higher audio specs than MD, but the media is much higher. I can't find many name brands for less than $10 a tape. After a couple of long projects and the DAT is now much more expensive. So, what's my reservaton? DAT has the better specs, but I'm not sure if I can hear the difference. Long story short, I'm going to buy the MD, try it on a project and listen very carefully. If the quality isn't there, it'll be for sale real soon.

Jeff

Jeff, I dont think you will be upset with MD, I am on the edge myself of going that route. It is 16 bit audio, just a little lower sample rate. When you think about it, all the CDs are 44.1 and they sound absolutley fantastic when I pull tracks off them into Final Cut so MD shouldnt make a bit of difference...

I just hate being down at 44.1 when everything else we work with is higher (and only going to get higher!) but for the type of work I do (mostly weddings) I think MD will work perfectly. I guess if I really want to capture something with the best possible quailty (ie. 48 KHz), I will just have to make sure I use my XL1s for that.

I also hate that there is no information on all these HD recorders out there, someone has to be using them! It really does seem like it would fit the bill. I guess I will find out more when I talk to them.

I think if I go the cheaper MD route I may splurge and get me another sennheiser shotgun, I love my ME-66! (I have an eye on that MKH-416 now)

Chris

I did happen to find a decent resource in my travels.

http://www.audiodirectory.nl/

It is a nicely organized directory of everything audio.

well I finally talked to the US importer of the Sonifex Courier (www.independentaudio.com) and they didnt even sound all that convinced it would be a viable solution for video... The guy I talked to though did admit he wasnt the one who knew it best and he did take my number and is going to have someone contact me.

At this point, I think I am going to steer away from the select few portable HD recorders out there and just get something that will work for what I need it to do. There is just no real user reports on these units except for journalists using them for voice work.

In all reality, I just purchased the Shure FP-24 (a beautifully small and portable field mixer/mic preamp with a bunch of neat features on it) so I could just run the tape-output into a small MD walkman or or portable DAT and work that way. Portabrace makes a nice case especially for it that will hold an NP1 battery and a small DAT player. This idea has been nagging at me as well...

well if I hear anything new on the portable HD recorders I will let you all know.

Chris

Thanks Chris,

Still haven't found my info sheet on the unit I was looking at.
The problem with my Sony Port. DAT, is the batteries are dead -- won't charge and Sony doesn't make or have them -- any thoughts on where I can get "BP-D3" battery? al.

I assume there is no power outlet to plug in an external DC power source?!? I did read on one of the DATHEADS posts that someone soldered two leads onto the battery terminals and powered it that way (he was having the same problem as you are) that battery definitely seems like a rare one!

I also know that whatever recorder I choose, I will be powering it externally with a bigger battery!

Chris