Love Neo Scene, and have used it happily for my 5D2 footage. Until now, I've only been shooting 30 second clips, or clips where I don't need the sound. Today is the first time I've started converting 5+ minute long clips. By the 3 minute mark, the sound is definitely off. By the 5 minute mark, the sound is at least a 1/2 second ahead of the picture.

Tried it in Low/Med/High quality, and also with the 3 different frame output options, no difference.

So...

Help? :)

Details:
Neo Scene V1.1.2
WinXP
Vegas Pro 8
Canon 5D markII

That was fixed months ago. We are on Neo Scene version 1.3.5 now.

I take a few months off to move and travel... AND YOU RELEASE NEW VERSIONS WITHOUT ME?

Sniff...

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J/K... I forgot how fast you actually fix and update stuff, I should have checked the Cineform site first. :)

Hey Dylan, there is a whole new world of 5D out there, check out the Magic Lantern thread and did you catch Canon upgrade of firmware to include manual at beginning of June ?.

That was fixed months ago. We are on Neo Scene version 1.3.5 now.

Uh oh.... I did the update and while it's much better, the sound is still off for sure after the 5 minute mark, probably less that a 1/4 second, but still off. I checked the originals to make sure it wasnt them.

Thoughts on this?


Chris, I'm still getting up to speed on the Magic Lantern, but will have it soon!

Make sure you are running 29.97 timeline, not 30.0p. With the number of 5D users we have, we know this has been solved.

So, to make sure I'm not insane and it isn't a timeline/framerate issue, I dropped the following three clips on the timeline:

1: The original clip, straight from the camera.
2: The Cineform render of the same clip.
3: The Zoom H4n audio of the same scene, synched to sound.

The original is 5:27:24
The Cineform audio is 19 frames behind at this point. The weird thing, is that the video is behind too... but by 8 frames, so neither the audio, nor the video, synch with the original.
The Zoom audio is in synch with the original.

I did download v1.3.5, and when I load it, it says v1.3.5... is there any chance it could still be loading my old version? Though I thought it was better after the update, it doesn't look like the problem has changed.

I appreciate the help (and patience, because it's probably something really simple that I'm doing wrong. :) )

Dylan:

Did you unistall the old version first ? You are supposed to deintsatall and then install the new version. Your system will keep the registration information, but you have to completely uninstall the old version. This is so too, for any other version of Cineform like Neo HDV. If I ever want to reinstall my version of NeoHDV, I still can, but you cannot have toth installed at same time.

Did you reconvert you source? The MOV source and the new AVI master are not supposed to match exactly, as the camera does the weird 30.0p (which is basically wrong) and we fix that and remodulate to 29.97, fixing the audio to match. This was all discussed several months ago. New converts will be 0.1% slower so that standard export don't have frame blends (which happens for many using 30.0 to 29.97 export formats like BlurRay, DVD, etc.) If you start with fresh 5D source convert those, the converted video and audio will be in sync and at a standard frame rate of 29.97.

Chris, good suggestion. I uninstalled NeoScene and reinstalled. No difference.

David, I re-rendered new .avis from the original .movs. After the five minute clip, the Cineform audio is still 19 frames behind the master audio track, and also still looks a few frames out of synch with itself. I'm going to set the camera to record a 10 minutes clip with a/v synch marks, and retest this. Will report back.

You need to talk to support, if you are sync issue in the AVI (not against the MOV as that is at a different frame rate.) However, if you master audio track was a secondary source, that is something else entirely, than you need Neo HD. Neo Scene is for hobbiest, where is 29.97 defaults are hardwired, not an issue (a big help really), unless you are doing dual system sound (typically not a hobbiest thing.) Rememeber 30 and 29.97 are different frame rate, your can't be sync sources with different clocks. In Neo HD and Prospect HD you choose the speed-up or down you need to match sources.

Hey David
I shot a test clip on the 5D2, 10 minutes long, with synch points along the way.
By the 10 minute mark, the Cineform footage was 1/2 second out of synch with itself, with the video faster than the audio. For example, a slate clap would happen, then roughly 15 frames later the sound would hit. Regardless of my 5D2 source material (which is in synch until the end), this shouldn't happen, right?

Plus it is still a full second behind both the native 5D2 mov and the source audio recording (which is still in synch with the source .mov even at the end)

Thanks again for the help!


(also, Neo HD is out of the budget, so if I can't figure out what's wrong, it's back to synching it all by hand)

I will run a test right now. I have not been doing a lot of narrative stuff lately, so I will check your results Dylan with my gear and a 5 minute clip.

Cool, thanks Chris!

David:

Dylan is right. We are not synching again. I am about 9 frames off at 5:44 of a six minute or so clip. At least in Vegas 9.

The attached Snipping of the time line show how project is set up. The time indicator is at point of clapper coming together. Note the sound is nine frames down about. I assume those are frame ticks.

Edit: After posting, I checked in at Vegas 8, same issues there.

In fact, it is off at beginning of my clip (5 secoonds in) with cursor passing clap sound almost 2 frames ahead of video... mic about 4 feet away.

Phew, glad it's not just me!

Chris, can you check 2 other things for me:
1) compare the Cineform clip to the source and tell me if the Cineform clip has the first few frames (maybe 5-10) of either the lead or tail clipped off? Not that they are important, just curious.
2) tell me how many frames out of synch the avi audio is from the source mov audio at the 5 minuteish point? I just want to see if it is the same as mine so I can tell if I'm doing anything else wrong. :)

Thanks!

As we where never sent the 5D Canon said they would, we need to see if this is due to the firmware changes. All our existing 5D sources are in sync.

So please upload a good sync test (MOV) clip to ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming -- just open a windows explorer window put the ftp address in the path, and draw your MOV into this window. Anyone ASAP, as we are wrapping up the next release to go out tomorrow.

As we where never sent the 5D Canon said they would, we need to see if this is due to the firmware changes. All our existing 5D sources are in sync.

So please upload a good sync test (MOV) clip to ftp://ftp.cineform.com/pub/incoming -- just open a windows explorer window put the ftp address in the path, and draw your MOV into this window. Anyone ASAP, as we are wrapping up the next release to go out tomorrow.

I'm running the original Canon 5D2 firmware, haven't updated, mine is straight out of the box.

The test clip I did last night is 2.5gb, maybe a little beefy :)

EDIT: I shot a new 2 minute clip that clocks in at under a gig. I think the sound is 5 or 6 frames out of synch from the video at the end of it. Uploading it now as CineformSynchTest.avi

Hope you guys can fix it before the next one!

We need the original MOV not the converted files. All our MOVs convert is sync, we need one that doesn't. Pleae upload that instead.

I am uploading a file now, numbered, and it is original I posted time line on last night. It is about 1.7 gig... a nearly 6 minute file. Looks like its not taking it up very fast. Should I try a smaller file ? I am on a pretty good optical system here, and can usually up load a 100 meg file to YouTube in a minute or so. So not sure where bottleneck is.

Phew, glad it's not just me!

Chris, can you check 2 other things for me:
1) compare the Cineform clip to the source and tell me if the Cineform clip has the first few frames (maybe 5-10) of either the lead or tail clipped off? Not that they are important, just curious.
2) tell me how many frames out of synch the avi audio is from the source mov audio at the 5 minuteish point? I just want to see if it is the same as mine so I can tell if I'm doing anything else wrong. :)

Thanks!

There is no doubt they will be out of synch. This is because the original is running at 30 fps, and the Cineform has been conformed or retimed to 29.97 fps. Cineform made the decision to do this based on its belief that the editing files should conform to 29.97 fps. There was and may still be some dispute as to what frame rate the camera actually records.

You need to upgraded to firmware 1.10 from Canon. In manual mode you have absolute control of shutter speed, aperature, and ISO ! Just be sure camera is set up in LiveView, Movies and Stills, and set in Movie mode under the subsetting there. If you don't do that, it will still act like it is in auto.

Edit: I checked frames at begining of clip, and everything seemed to be in line at beginning of both clips... Frames identical in initial frames. then I realigned everything to make the ends match up, checking frames again. Though I couldn't get an exact matchup at end, they had same last frames..

We need the original MOV not the converted files. All our MOVs convert is sync, we need one that doesn't. Pleae upload that instead.

Too late, I uploaded both versions of my 2 minute clip. :)
Please keep us updated on your findings, I'm happy to help run any other tests you might have.

Edit: I checked frames at begining of clip, and everything seemed to be in line at beginning of both clips... Frames identical in initial frames. then I realigned everything to make the ends match up, checking frames again. Though I couldn't get an exact matchup at end, they had same last frames..

Check the audio tracks of both the original MOV and CFHD AVI files for a clip that has sound all the way to the end, on a Vegas 29.97 timeline. Do the tail ends of the audio waveforms look the same to you? Don't stretch the original MOV file to match the AVI. Just look at the tail ends. You might have to zoom in on the timeline a lot.

Check the audio tracks of both the original MOV and CFHD AVI files for a clip that has sound all the way to the end, on a Vegas 29.97 timeline. Do the tail ends of the audio waveforms look the same to you? Don't stretch the original MOV file to match the AVI. Just look at the tail ends. You might have to zoom in on the timeline a lot.


Mine don't match up in any way.

Thank for those who uploaded samples, we found the issue and it is fixed and the patch will make tomorrows release.

Here is early access to what we currently think is the next release version:

Neo Scene : http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NeoSceneV136b121-090806.zip
Neo HD : http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NeoHDv408b217-090723.zip

The rest to follow tomorrow.

Thank for those who uploaded samples, we found the issue and it is fixed and the patch will make tomorrows release.

Downloaded the new version and confirmed, it's fixed. Glad I could help. It feels... weird... to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem! :)

Also, impressed that you could find it and fix it so quickly. Nicely done!

Fast confirmation is very helpful to. That was a very useful and accurate sync test you uploaded. Thanks also to Chris how jumped to this with an upload.

Great guys..... I will download too....

Follow up: New version is synching sound pretty well.

Sorry to dumb down this conversation but I'm really new to my 5D Mark II and video editing but I'm trying to edit some sample clips in Adobe CS4 Premiere, using converted .MOV (straight from camera) that I convert using the trial version of CineForm Neoscene.

None of my conversions have audio...should they? What am I doing wrong? I am just trying to get some simple clips into Premiere so I can start to play with it and learn it...read that NeoScene is good for this. I'm on a PC, Windows 7 32bit.

Yes it should. 5D conversions do work with audio. So contact support immediately, and hopely they can get back to you before the end of Friday as this will be a very busy weekend for us (CineForm has two teams in the 48Hour Film Project this weekend.)

Submit a ticket : Support Center (http://supportcenteronline.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=614)

If going to be something simple.

Thanks David, I submitted a ticket.

EDIT: I figured out the issue, I didn't have QT installed. Dur. Noobie told ya! I'm closing the ticket.

Follow up: New version is synching sound pretty well.

I haven't checked in here in a few weeks so I was happy to pop by tonight and see that this issue has supposedly and finally been resolved.

I reported this problem something like 4 months ago, but got the typical dismissal.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/cineform-software-showcase/234271-neoscene-audio-synch-issues-canon-5d-mk-ii.html

I uploaded some huge sample clips to Cineform support, with no resolution.

Seriously, the "conforming" audio thing has created way more headaches for me than anything. Even if the audio synch issue is now fixed, this default behavior still adds another time consuming step to my workflow. Isn't NeoScene supposed to make my life easier? I realize it's probably a huge benefit for other users, but not me. It has basically screwed up my workflow on every project I've worked on for nearly a half year. I really am having great difficulty understanding why a simple checkbox can't be included which would simply DISABLE this feature. I am not asking for ADDITIONAL functionality, I am asking for the option to disable EXISTING functionality. By the way, this is functionality that I never requested, it was added AFTER I purchased the product.

I reported this problem something like 4 months ago, but got the typical dismissal.Reporting a problem here on DVinfo provides an opportunity for general discussion but doesn't generate a Trouble Ticket at Cineform. Please re-contact Cineform support; sometimes they do seem to get too busy and drop the ball but a reminder usually resolves that.