I've been doing video editing since the early days of Macs, Amigas, and PCs, but can NEVER, EVER recall a program which is just so entirely filled with bugs, hangs, crashes, and totally unstable performance as the latest release of Cyberlink Power Director 8 Ultra.

I would expect, based on the pattern of "quality control" which Cyberlink applies, that 6 to 8 months from now this product may become usable, after enough users complain and report issues to Cyberlink. They have a very bad habit of releasing extremely buggy code in their new releases, and this is certainly a good example.

Your mileage may vary, and I may have an especially complex environment on my machine which may cause a lot of problems others will not have. For whatever it is worth, the prior version ultimately became very stable and extremely useful for AVCHDs, but it took a long time to get patched. I was fortunate to exchange private reports with the Cyberlink people who sent patches out before official release, and even so was very unhappy with the huge number of problems with installing, burning, editing, etc.

This is mostly a word of warning, but I would be very interested to see what others find with this product.

Larry

A somewhat lengthy and mostly cordial letter of complaint to Cyberlink Customer Service produced an amazingly fast reply, offering me the URL to download the "newest" version of the program as well as the newest content / media libraries.

Despite another 760 MByte download, 2 unsuccesful attempts to uninstall the prior version, 1 unsuccessful attempt to install the new version, and thus a few wasted hours, I am pleased to report that:

The new build, Build 1930a, does appear to fix a lot of problems. Given that the program was only released a short time ago, it seems almost comical that the version provided to retail customers via web downloads in the old version, and then requires the uninstall, another huge download, and then another reinstall.

On the bright side, the program runs way better. It still has many issues, and I would certainly not declare it a refined and stable version yet, but it does have a lot to recommend it. And it nows seems to run and stay alive for extended periods of time without crashes, something which was certainly not true of the release I purchased and installed yesterday.

Larry

Larry,

My biggest concern with PD7 Ultra (once they fixed the soft focus probiem when the PiP track was used as a second full frame video track) is that when importing a second audio segment on a separate audio track, no waveforms are shown. Waveforms only show in the audio of the main video track.

Does PD8 allow waveforms to be seen in separate audio tracks?

I use a Canon T1i for some video and because it has only monaural audio and no mic input, I have to use a ZoomH2 to record stereo audio. It helps to "synch" if I can position the separate audio so waveforms match.

I appreciate your posting this report.

Hi Bruce,

Cyberlink has improved the program quite a bit in this specific area.

Click on the first attached file and you will see that they now allow the addition of both multiple PIP object tracks as well as multiple audio tracks as well. The second attachment shows that they have indeed added the audio waveforms to the music/audio tracks, and the envelopes can be adjusted to make the individual track amplitudes rise and fall based on the selected rubber band positions.

Hope this answers your specific questions.

I too have a TX1 and really like this little Canon HD camcorder very much. I have not tried using an outboard stereo recorder, but imagine this new PD8 release may help quite a bit in aligning the audio correctly.

I wanted to add that my experience with this newer update of PD8 is really very positive. Had they released this properly, and removed the older piece of buggy code from their servers, I would have never posted this original thread. I would have been far more gentle in my criticism, or quite likely have actually praised the product.

Larry

That does look promising.

I'll be waiting for the "box" version or retail version sold by vendors to be available, though. I'm one of the ones that had the download order process go horribly wrong with PD7 and experienced a totally nonresponsive Cyberlink Customer Service.

I see on their forum the same thing happening to many, so when I can order a "box" copy on disk a few months from now from an actual vendor I'll consider it. I'm currently still using Pinnacle Studio 12.1 but on a Core i7 based Dell.

The camera I have to use double system sound with is the Canon T1i (Digital Rebel 500D). I've found it's not too complex to record with the ZoomH2, "rough trim", and edit the audio with Audacity, export as WAV files and drag 'n drop those on the sound effects track in Studio. Click 'n drag until waveform peaks match as close as I can get them and the sound seems to be in synch with the video. Then mute the original mono audio on the main video track.

I have a Nikon lens to EOS mount adapter and found a mint 50mm f1.8 Nikkor (fully manual AI-S) lens and that allows me to manually set the aperture ring and bypass the full auto of video mode on that camera. Sample video showing shallow DOF in daylight is here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photo-hd-video-d-slr-others/238204-sample-video-dof-control-nikkor-t1i.html

Thanks Bruce. I especially enjoyed the HF100 video of the T1i with the Nikkor lens and the clip of the T1i DOF control.

Sorry for my confusion about the TX versus T1i Canon. I have the XSi - 450D Canon as well, but lust for owning the T1i since the new body does such nice video.

I have a Canon 50mm f/1.4 prime lens for my XSi and wonder if using that would be problem for doing video on the T1i. It has really beautiful bokah, and I would assume that I could use it in manual focus and manual aperture / shutter to achieve the same function as you did by mounting your older Nikkor to the T1i with the adapter mount.

I am also interesting in your magnifier and might want to add something like that as well for critical focusing. Your T1i has a better LCD on it than my XSi, and presumably shows a lot more fine detail under magnification of 6X.

Have you used other EOS bodies, and if so, how do you like the T1i in comparison? I am thinking of trading up, not only for the movie feature but also the increased high ISO modes on the T1i.

I look forward to your comments Bruce and thanks again,

Larry

I have a Canon 50mm f/1.4 prime lens for my XSi and wonder if using that would be problem for doing video on the T1i. It has really beautiful bokeh, and I would assume that I could use it in manual focus and manual aperture / shutter to achieve the same function as you did by mounting your older Nikkor to the T1i with the adapter mount.

Unfortunately the T1i body is programmed for full auto aperture, shutter, and ISO only in video mode (same as the 5D MkII with previous firmware). As long as the camera can control the lens functions f1.4 would only be possible under dimmest conditions at night. Some were setting the dial for M and dialing in max aperture then pressing the lens mount lock and twisting the lens slightly to "disconnect" the electrical contacts. Then when the dial was turned back to video mode the aperture would supposedly remain at the last selected setting. I tried this with my EF 50mm f1.8 but couldn't really tell if it was working or not, it may have.

I'll try it again and let you know as I have a better feel for the camera now.

While autofocus is possible (if you don't do the above "disconnect) I find it easier for me to manually focus, you don't have continuous autofocus in this mode anyway.

I am also interesting in your magnifier and might want to add something like that as well for critical focusing. Your T1i has a better LCD on it than my XSi, and presumably shows a lot more fine detail under magnification of 6X.

I ordered from CAVISION. Go to Cavision Enterprises Ltd (http://www.cavision.com) and click on viewfinders. Their website is a mess to try to order from so I just called the number I found on the website. Better that way as you can communicate better. I got the assembly with mounting plate, special spacing "riser" to get the camera up higher (assembly is made with 5D MkII in mind) and the "swing away" adapter. Came to $239 with 2 day shipping from Canada plus $12 and change billed by FedEx for Customs clearing. Not instant on and off (takes me 2 or 3 minutes) but for tripod or SpiderBrace mounting I really like it.

For just carrying the camera around in a small bag to be ready for stills or video "targets of opportunity" I toss that Hoodloupe (that does not magnify) in the bag.

Have you used other EOS bodies, and if so, how do you like the T1i in comparison? I am thinking of trading up, not only for the movie feature but also the increased high ISO modes on the T1i.

I had a pair of the original EOS 650 bodies (35-70, 50, and 70-210 lenses), then the original Digital Rebel (300D with kit lens), last September sold the 300D and ordered the 450D, and then a couple months ago sold that and leaped on the T1i. The T1i is best "Rebel" yet, I'm glad I made the move, it feels just like the XSi but with a sharper LCD that you can view from different angles. It lessens the inconvenience of not having an "articulating" LCD somewhat since you don't need to be exactly directly behind it.

Increased high ISO modes are good also. Getting a bit of "grain" or noise doesn't "harelip" me like it does some others but I don't find it bad at all. I shot some extreme closeup of vine tendrils and stuff in the shade where I needed some extra DOF and the higher ISO helped me out. The noise was minimal and somewhat soft.

I look forward to your comments Bruce and thanks again,

Larry

You're welcome, hope my comments helped

Your comments and observations are really valued highly Bruce as you have walked down the path I have been contemplating.

The T1i and higher ISO are quite compelling to me, and I too have less upset about noise, particularly in still photographs where I am able to see some pretty extraordinary improvements when taking RAW photos and using Neat Image to fix the JPEGs or DXo to work on the RAW images. I am entirely amazed at how much improvement I can get in post processing, and find that 1600 ISO pictures can be made to look very acceptable at the sizes I typically print (4 by 6), often even larger. I also don't especially sweat the noise in low light video, since the event itself typically justifies the compromise. How can I resist taking videos at my grand-daughter's birthday party when the candles provide the major lighting??!! And who would want to spoil the event with bright accessory lighting......I am therefore pretty convinced that the T1i makes a lot of sense as an upgrade, but I have been unsuccesful in selling my XSi body so far (I have posted it on craigslist for $475 with no buyer yet). I am also curious to see what if any update to the 50D takes place since a 60D is rumored to be on the horizon.

I must also confess that I am a bit put off by the lack of autofocus and exposure control which now makes the DSLR path a bit too "manual" for my liking. I grew up with non-automated cameras, dating back to the 1950's, so I know what the meaning of truly manual cameras is, but I feel much more comfortable letting the camera do the major lifting when it comes to both focus and exposure. I just wish I had some ability to use interchangable lenses and make manual f/stop adjustments ( to control DOF) on a camera like the HF100 or perhaps a 3CCD "prosumer" model if and when Canon decides to release one with solid state memory. (I will NEVER go back to tape now that I have been using AVCHD and flash cards...)

I saw the Hood loupe advertised and was surprised they made no mention of the magnification. It seems at first that the lens and shroud they provide would have some magnification, but I guess this is not true. The CAVision solution is nice, and I may just add that onto my XSi.


I had excellent experiences a couple years ago with this magnifier on my Nikon:

Photosolve Home > Products > Xtend-a-View (http://www.photosolve.com/main/product/xtendaview/index.html)

Not sure if they make magnifiers for DSLRS now or not.

Boy this stuff is just endless in terms of possibilities...

If I only had a lot more money and time.....

Larry

but I have been unsuccesful in selling my XSi body so far (I have posted it on craigslist for $475 with no buyer yet). I am also curious to see what if any update to the 50D takes place since a 60D is rumored to be on the horizon.

I carried mine to a photo club meeting with the kit lens attached and the box with everything that came with it. Priced it at $550. One lady picked it up and played a lot with it (I also included 2 2GB cards. It didn't come back home with me.

I must also confess that I am a bit put off by the lack of autofocus and exposure control which now makes the DSLR path a bit too "manual" for my liking.

Autofocus is there with Canon EF and EF-S lenses. You press the exposure lock button and hold till you see the "target" box turn green. Play with "Live View" on your XSi and you'll see what it's like. With Canon EF and EF-S lenses, exposure in video mode is fully automatic but with a 2 stop over and under manual bias available. You can also "lock" exposure and then use the "bias". It's not bad.

I still need to test the "unlock" lens and turn some to "disconnect" contacts method for manual aperture control with the EF 50mm f1.8 lens. This would be required only when you wanted to use specific aperture on your f1.4 prime. For just automated low light you could let cam do it's own thing. Low light video done in Tokyo with the 50mm f1.8 accepting the T1i video mode automatics looks great in files I've seen on vimeo.

I saw the Hood loupe advertised and was surprised they made no mention of the magnification. It seems at first that the lens and shroud they provide would have some magnification, but I guess this is not true. The CAVision solution is nice, and I may just add that onto my XSi.

The reason for no magnification on the Hoodloupe is that up until now most LCD screens on cameras would not stand up under magnification. The pixels just got bigger. The Hoodloupe was originally designed to be hung on your neck with a light neckstrap and grabbed to hold over the LCD and block light out so you could see what your image looked like in review.

I ordered mine with the camcorder strap to turn the LCD on my HF100 into an EVF. Which worked fine but I began to use it from the neckstrap just like with a DSLR and it is darned convenient that way. With the T1i it's really pretty good combined with the x5 and x10 magnification of the LCD camera function. Of course you can order the CAVISION viewfinder without mounting plate kit (with 6X eyepiece) with the rubber "frame" for the open end to protect the LCD, put a neckstrap on it and use it the same way (holding it in place). The "rubber band" attachment method would work too and it would be cheaper (and perhaps more flexible) that way.

Boy this stuff is just endless in terms of possibilities...

If I only had a lot more money and time.....

Larry

So many things....
....So little money....

Thanks once again Bruce. Your experience with the EOS for video is very enticing, and I am especially glad to learn that auto exposure and focus are achievable. Some if not most of the still cameras I have tried for video have either very limited or entirely non-existent automation in these 2 areas.

I have read a couple comments elsehwhere indicating that the low light performance for video on the T1i is disappointing, and a person like yourself who also had the HF100 made the specific comment that the HF100 did a lot better in low light. I was completely surprised to read this, given the relative size of the sensor and lenses in the T1i compared to the HF100. I would have expected that the T1i would do much better in this regard. Have you had any reason to expect / find that the HF100 is better or much better when doing low light video photography?

And as to the comment of too many / so many things, so little money.......I guess I need to ask my wife to give up her retirement and go back to work...............!!!!! (She would not find this comment or the suggestion even slightly amusing...!!)

Larry

I have a Canon 50mm f/1.4 prime lens for my XSi and wonder if using that would be problem for doing video on the T1i. It has really beautiful bokeh, and I would assume that I could use it in manual focus and manual aperture / shutter to achieve the same function as you did by mounting your older Nikkor to the T1i with the adapter mount.
Larry

It will work. I tried the "unlock and turn the lens a bit" method and it's actually pretty easy. I mounted my EF 50mm f1.8 lens left over from the EOS 650's I used to have, then turned the dial on the camera to AV mode. Dialed f1.8 as the aperture then unlocked the lens and turned it about 1/4-1/2 inch. With an EF lens the red mark on the lens will be just about aligned with the electronic flash symbol by the built in flash release button. Next I turned the mode dial all the way clockwise to the "video" mode.

The mirror moved up out of the way (just as it does in Live View on your XSi) but a warning message appeared on the LCD reminding to insure a lens is attached (the contacts between the lens and body are now disconnected) but once you press the 2nd button down to the right of the screen you have Live View for video.

I focused on something close and pressed that button again to start recording and then played that recording back to check DOF in the recording, it worked.

You can turn the camera off and when you turn it back on the lens aperture is still where you set it in AV mode, so you can turn the camera back on and continue with the same settings.

The camera sets ISO and shutter, you have no control over those in video mode, but you do have the 2 stop over and 2 stop under bias. Focus is manual because now the camera cannot "communicate" with or control the lens functions. But that's OK, the LCD is generous both with adequate size, brightness, and definition.

I could have saved myself the cost of the adapter and the Nikkor lens.

In actual application it's easier than it sounds above. In most cases this sort of thing (with shallow DOF) will be a planned shot. The following steps can be done quickly.

1. In AV mode dial desired aperture.
2. Unlock lens and turn a bit (aperture will now remain whatever you selected)
3. Turn dial to video mode and press video start button (just below AV button)
4. Focus, compose, and press video start again (now starts recording)
5. Press video start to stop recording.

When done turn lens back to "locked" position and camera in video mode is back to fully auto. Your 50mm f1.4 prime ought to do a great job for you with DOF control. But once you do the above first 3 or 4 steps just a few times it gets pretty simple and can actually be done in seconds. I may not bother with the Nikkor much anymore, it has a bit more flare wide open where the Canon exhibits less of that (being newer design).

Hope you find this info of value.

Bruce

I have read a couple comments elsehwhere indicating that the low light performance for video on the T1i is disappointing, and a person like yourself who also had the HF100 made the specific comment that the HF100 did a lot better in low light.

Larry

Oh NO! Gosh NO! The low light performance of the T1i with f2.8 aperture and larger is vastly superior to the HF100. The HF100 is surprisingly good if you don't task it too hard in low light, but the T1i with a fast prime like f1.8 is really fun to work with. I did some testing for night drama and actually had to cut the aperture back to 2.8 for a lot of it. Here is a link to that:

YouTube - T1i Night Test Short Ver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4nbS5c-dlk)

I see no noise, grain, or anything like that. Low light will be one of the special uses I'll have for the T1i. But the HF100's are still in the game.

Once again, thanks Bruce, and I enjoyed your night video with the added intriuge of a 'Russian' actor!

The next step for me is to find a way to move up to a T1i DSLR with video capabilities, and I hope to find a buyer for the XSi locally first. The fact that the existing lenses can be used in the manner you describe makes a very significant difference for allowing the right types of artistic control unavailable with an HF100.

I entirely expected that the T1i would significantly improve of the HF100 in low light, and was surprised to read the comment (I believe it was on dpreview.com) where the opposite was claimed. I do a lot of available light photography and don't especially like flash or other artificial lighting, so my videos with the HF100 often suffer in this regard. The Sony HD camcorders I use have done quite well in low light, but they achieve their noise reduction by severely reducing the high frequency fine detail, looking more like standard def video. I see that they have introduced a new sensor technology very recently ('backlighting') which supposedly gets some significant improvements in their small sensor cameras, but there is still nothing like a lot of surface area and a bigger lens to gather more light.

Thanks again for the info and excellent sample videos Bruce. And as a parting comment, I will say that I have gained a great deal of appreciation for the new Cyberlink Power Director 8 Ultra now that I have had a chance to exercise the latest version. It is a very nice product, well worth the cost, and far from being a "train wreck" now that they have fixed it up quite a bit.

Larry

Once again, thanks Bruce, and I enjoyed your night video with the added intrigue of a 'Russian' actor!

That was my oldest grandson. He is fascinated with things Russian. And he loves doing stuff like that. He was a bit disappointed that I wouldn't let him do it with an AK-47 slung on him. I explained I didn't want the "ride" to the police station when someone called in a "man with a gun" complaint.

The next step for me is to find a way to move up to a T1i DSLR with video capabilities, and I hope to find a buyer for the XSi locally first.

Easy way to do that if you have a kit lens you can let go with it is to snap up a couple of 2GB cards and offer it as a package the buyer can start using 3 minutes after purchase.

That helped sell mine, lady who purchased it didn't have to go buy anything else to put it to use. That really helps sell something.

I entirely expected that the T1i would significantly improve of the HF100 in low light, and was surprised to read the comment (I believe it was on dpreview.com) where the opposite was claimed.

The T1i has a larger sensor that produces great stills, add "fast glass" and the combo makes for great low light work. I like the color and image tones from it. And in outdoor daylight the T1i video (720p setting) edits in nicely with HF100 footage shot in cine mode with custom preset "tweaks" on brightness, contrast, and sharpening.

I do have to admit I haven't even tried the 1080p setting. The 20fps can result in a bit "jerky" motion I've seen in a few vimeo videos, but may be fine if fast motion is not involved. I'll get around to trying it, though; the 1280x720p at 30fps works just fine. Coming from a larger sensor it looks pretty good.


Good luck,

Bruce

It will work. I tried the "unlock and turn the lens a bit" method and it's actually pretty easy. I mounted my EF 50mm f1.8 lens left over from the EOS 650's I used to have, then turned the dial on the camera to AV mode. Dialed f1.8 as the aperture then unlocked the lens and turned it about 1/4-1/2 inch.

It doesn't even take that much turning. Did some more playing around with it and after "unlocking" the lens I turned it very slowly until I saw the f1.8 on the LCD change to f00. It actually takes only a very little turn from the locked position to change 1.8 to 00 (which means the electronic contacts are disconnected and unable to pass data at that point.

Bruce

Selling the XSi with accesories as a "ready to use" bundle makes very good sense Bruce and I've posted my ad once again on craigslist with the kit lens, extra memory card and battery. Will see if that works.

Thanks for the advice and very nice examples. I hope to show up here again soon with a T1i.....

Best,

Larry

A somewhat lengthy and mostly cordial letter of complaint to Cyberlink Customer Service produced an amazingly fast reply, offering me the URL to download the "newest" version of the program as well as the newest content / media libraries.

Despite another 760 MByte download, 2 unsuccesful attempts to uninstall the prior version, 1 unsuccessful attempt to install the new version, and thus a few wasted hours, I am pleased to report that:

The new build, Build 1930a, does appear to fix a lot of problems. Given that the program was only released a short time ago, it seems almost comical that the version provided to retail customers via web downloads in the old version, and then requires the uninstall, another huge download, and then another reinstall.

On the bright side, the program runs way better. It still has many issues, and I would certainly not declare it a refined and stable version yet, but it does have a lot to recommend it. And it nows seems to run and stay alive for extended periods of time without crashes, something which was certainly not true of the release I purchased and installed yesterday.

Larry

I have been trying to get Cyberlink support to verify whether or not PD8 can generate subtitles in AVCHD projects written to DVD disc (PD8 subtitles are OK in DVD and Blu-ray formats). After 6 back and forth sessions with the same support individual using their web support pages they have yet to answer the question ! The caliber of support appears to be seriously lacking. Because of this I have decided to evaluate Adobe's Premier Elements 7 and see how their support folks respond. Any feedback on either software vendors ?

Al,

A better place to ask that question would be on the forum at CyberLink ? A Leading Expert in Consumer Multimedia and Digital Home Solutions (http://www.cyberlink.com), there are a lot of helpful folks there. Click on "members" and you may have to register to ost

As far as "generate" subtitles goes, do you mean the kind you enter as title overlay over the image at the bottom of the screen, or something "generated" from a linked text file?

If the former, any NLE with a title overlay function, once you've entered the subtitles where you want them, should render that to any format including AVCHD on regular DVD material.

The only time I made an AVCHD DVD was using Pinnacle Studio 11.1.2 and the one subtitle I used showed up fine.

One warning on rendering AVCHD in AVCHD (Blu-ray compliant format) to regular DVD media: NEVER PUT THAT DISK IN A REGULAR PLAYER! It will fail to function and most of the time it will fail to eject, leaving you stuck with a player you cannot get the disk out of until you get the unit serviced somewhere. Those disks are playable only on Sony PS3 or Blu-ray players.

Bruce,

The Cyberlink forum is void of info on subtitles and lacks breath of scope on most subjects - perhaps that's why their support folks are also out of sync on it. I just find that such a simple question not being answered makes for a poor support experience down the road. Are the support issues with Adobe as bad or better ?

Power Director 8 does not make subtitled AVCHDs. Although it appears to accept subtitle inputs, it merely shows them as title overlays with no means so select or deselect them with the player. Moreover, for those who would like to make mutlple language subtitles (very common on commercial disks), Power Director 8 is not capable of doing this. The text is composited with the video, and the resulting video ALWAYS has the "subtitle" showing regardless of player settings.

Sony Vegas / DVD Architect, on the other hand, makes correct subtitled AVCHDs, each subtitle being correctly established in the muxed stream as a selectable choice by the user during playback. This is one of many distinctions which make Vegas suite professional and Power Director mostly a home consumer product. The price difference between the two software products ($80 for Power Director versus several hundred dollars for Vegas) is justified for some buyers for these very features....

Along the same lines, Power Director support is very sketchy. Their forum has a number of helpful people, but they are users, not Cyberlink employees. Their replies and comments are sometimes outright wrong, outdated, etc. Getting Cyberlink help as a registered user has been mostly pretty good for me, however, although they have problems speaking English, and they also have classical customer service ignorance and confusion since you are NOT talking to programmers / software developers.

I guess the bottom line, IMHO, is:

What should one expect from a $80 software product which sells for about the same price as a good steak dinner for me and my wife? It works pretty well, has (sometimes) available support, and does most of the basic stuff quite well. I still use it a lot despite having Vegas, Final Cut, etc. around here......

Larry

BTW, I have not recently used Premiere Elements, but my prior ownership of both the Pro version as well as the Elements version with AVCHD was quite poor, especially with regard to speed.

Also, I loaded Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate and tried to make an AVCHD disk with subtitles. I do not see any subtitle capabilities in this software, and the help file did not make any mention of subtitles. I also checked the Owner's Manual and the 15 page long Index did not have an entry for the word "subtitle". Could it have been in version 11 but removed in 12?

Al,

One warning on rendering AVCHD in AVCHD (Blu-ray compliant format) to regular DVD media: NEVER PUT THAT DISK IN A REGULAR PLAYER! It will fail to function and most of the time it will fail to eject, leaving you stuck with a player you cannot get the disk out of until you get the unit serviced somewhere.

I wanted to mention that a solution for this problem exists for most of the DVD and BluRay players I have owned (several dozen from a half dozen manufacturer). The "trick" is to hold down both the Power switch and the "Eject" switch simultaneously while powering up the unit, after first unplugging it. After these have both been held down for quite a while, the tray will eject. Some of the players (I think the Samsung) need both the Power and Play buttons to be held down rather than the Eject button, but I have NEVER had a machine which failed to respond to this type of technique, and I can include Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba, Samsung, and many cheapo brands from Walmart, Bestbuy (Insignia), and Internet sources to the list of those which worked as I describe.

Larry

Thanks, Larry.

That's a useful thing to know!

I never had it happen to me but read other's "tales of woe".

I've been doing video editing since the early days of Macs, Amigas, and PCs, but can NEVER, EVER recall a program which is just so entirely filled with bugs, hangs, crashes, and totally unstable performance as the latest release of Cyberlink Power Director 8 Ultra.

You havent played with AVCHD files in Sony Vegas Pro 8 much then have you :P

Rikki,

I am especially intrigued by your comment since I do indeed use Sony Vegas Pro 8 and have been mostly satisfied with the results in the newest update (8.0c Build 260). My experiences with the recently released version 9 of Vegas have been far less favorable, and my trial version expired before the two new updates (9.0a and 9.0b) have been released which (supposedly) improve it substantially. I may upgrade eventually after the dust settles, but for the time being Vegas 8 is my prefered tool for AVCHD work.

I do see a lot of people on the Vegas forum complaining, and the 64 bit version seems to have all sorts of issues as well. It is not altogether surprising to see how dependent the stability and performance is depending on the hardware and software configuration.

Larry

Rikki,

I am especially intrigued by your comment since I do indeed use Sony Vegas Pro 8 and have been mostly satisfied with the results in the newest update (8.0c Build 260). My experiences with the recently released version 9 of Vegas have been far less favorable, and my trial version expired before the two new updates (9.0a and 9.0b) have been released which (supposedly) improve it substantially. I may upgrade eventually after the dust settles, but for the time being Vegas 8 is my prefered tool for AVCHD work.

I do see a lot of people on the Vegas forum complaining, and the 64 bit version seems to have all sorts of issues as well. It is not altogether surprising to see how dependent the stability and performance is depending on the hardware and software configuration.

Larry


Im on 8.0c using Pana HMC150 footage thru it and its unworkable. Either hangs when previewing by itself, crashes on render or when it does work its so painfully slow its unbearable (Q6600 OC'd to 3.4GHZ per core, 4gb ram etc). Works great with Cineform and HDV files but AVCCAM stuff ? Not a hope in hell.

If there is one essential thing I have learned over the last 2 years working with AVCHD in particular, it is that the hardware and software experiences of users varies a great deal. I have been pulling my hair out with a specific program and other people seem to have no issues, and the converse is also true. I guess this is a reflection of immaturity in the software products, and the lack of testing on a wide variety of platforms before release. No doubt the AVCHD camcorder makers have further complicated the situation since AVCHD is not one single format but rather a collection of very similar formats which differ in ways which can make a difference when used on the very same system. I am certain that Vegas, for example, does a better job with Sony AVCHD content versus Canon content. It makes problem solving and user assistance all the more difficult.

Maybe this will stabilize eventually. I certainly hope so.

I'm trying out all the trials of SW I could afford to buy. Powerdirector 8 is so far the best to work with, but it always crashes rendering the AVCHD from my Canon (and sometimes during editing). Seems that it can't properly render transitions. Also the sound is sometimes just missing from the rendered version, during random clips. The PC is a fast Phenom2 3-core.

I like working with PD 8, but... is there a newer binary yet? Or, might the registered version have a new rev that isn't out on the trial yet? I just can't buy something so instable. When I try to ask tech support, they say they can't help me because I haven't purchased. When I ask customer support (as tech support told me), they refer me to tech support. Yarr.

Adobe Elements 8 (brand new) crashes a lot, hogs the CPU, and installs all kinds of background apps (one of which was using 30% CPU when I hadn't even opened Elements). I can't work with that.

-Dave

edit: PD8 now installed on XP pro 64-bit; identical behavior. Crash seems to occur when memory usage goes too high. One particular transition bumps usage from ~620,000k to >700,000k in task manager, which is when it crashes. Is there a memory limit on how much system memory the program can use?

David,

The most recent version I am aware of is 1930a, with the downloaded installer called:

PDR8_Program_1930a_VDE080829-03.exe

It was offered to me on August 5th by Customer Support (only) when I complained that the original download was so incredibly unstable. As I posted earlier in this thread, this newer version seems to have fixed most of my problems, and I do not encounter, for example, the transition iossue you mention. It was apparently released sometime in late July or early August, but not updated on the Cyberlink / Digital River server for retail purchasers like me.

I just went to Cyberlink's support website to see if they had posted this release as a software update, but it is not there. I would imagine your only options, if you do not already have this version, would be to continue asking Cycberlink customer support for a trial version of the updated software, or to risk a purchase and then get the update as a customer. The latter approach may be a waste of money if the update still crashes for you, unfortunately.

Welcome to the wacky world of AVCHD. BTW, my experience with Adobe Premier Elements is the same as yours. I removed it from my computer.

Larry

Hi Larry, thanks for the feedback. Here's the installer I downloaded today,
CyberLink.2013_VDE090708-01.exe

Looks like that is newer than the one that you have with 1930a! Very strange... maybe they have re-introduced some old problems (very common with bad programming practices, which I've seen in most companies I worked for).

I'm now trying out a trial of Pinnacle 12. There's no trial yet for the brand-new Pinnacle 14. Good news is, no crashes of Pinnacle 12 yet. Bad news is, rendering is rather slow (3x or more of PD8!). Perhaps that's improved in 14, but I have to wait for a trial or buy it to find out.

Perhaps if I'm motivated by Pinnacle 12's slowness, I'll try emailing Cyberlink... unless any other suggestions pop up here :-)

Cheers, Dave


The most recent version I am aware of is 1930a, with the downloaded installer called:

PDR8_Program_1930a_VDE080829-03.exe

The user support forum moderator on the Cyberlink PowerDirector forum reports that 2013 apparently is issued only by request to customer support for the retail version, even though (apparently) the trial version is now at version 2013. I know this hardly makes any sense. You would think that the users would be getting the latest version and not the trial users, but such wierdness is not uncommon with software developers, particularly those in the inscrutable far East. The forum page explains this a little bit, and see the post by the forum administrator, Dafydd in particular:

Build 2013 (http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/7994.page)

I am going to contact Cyberlink and see if I can get a copy of 2013 to install. My present version is actually pretty stable, but I would like to get whatever improvements have been released unless they have done the common update with 2 steps forward and 1 step backward, breaking things while fixing others........

Larry

David,

Typically Pinnacle Studio 11 and 12 have taken several times the amount of time to render over what PowerDirector does. If you are trying to work with the faster bitrates, both programs generally require a quad core processor (Pinnacle Studio needing 2.66Ghz or faster) to successfully cope with the intensive compression of AVCHD.

Of the two, PowerDirector tends to be the less computer resource demanding of the two. I have PD8 (purchased Retail "box" version from amazon.com even though I could have save $25 going for the downloaded upgrade) and so far have installed it only on a Dell with the Q6600 (quad core 2.4Ghz processor) and haven't had much chance to fully test it out. Rendering short sequences to HD WMV seems to work well, but I need to install it on my Core i7 machine and see how it works burning disks on both machines.

I use Pinnacle Studio 12 most between the two, put up with the long rendering times because it does work and seems to work well. I don't know how tempted I'll be to move up to Studio 14 because they have removed the "hook" that allows SmartSound's current plug in to function. The included Scorefitter is something I have tried to give a fair trial, but the music is "thin", very MIDI sounding, and just lacks any real rich depth you find in a lot of SmartSound music. I do have SonicFire Pro 5 "Scoring Edition" and can continue to use my SmartSound library with any NLE that allows me to import a WAV file but have become spoiled by being able to score with SmartSound from within Studio.

Pinnacle may really lose me on this last "trick".

Hi Larry, thanks for the Cyberlink forum link. I have posted there with my issues asking for a solution. Let's see if 1930a is more stable, or if they have something new!

Hi Bruce, that's good info. I am using a Phenom2 X3 (3-core) at 2.6GHz. With PD8 the render times are acceptable (esp. with hardware accel from Nvidia 9500GT); with Pinnacle it's pretty painful(at least 3x longer). I won't do too much with music, except music I've created in mp3 format, so am not too worried about those missing audio features in Pinnacle 14. I noticed three problems in Pinnacle 12 so far:
1) YouTube upload in "high quality" mode is only 320x200 or so, not the new HD. But Pinnacle 12 is pretty old, and probably pre-YouTube-HD.
2) Camera stabilization effect is *horrible* and actually makes my videos (from a helmet-cam with optical stabilization) worse! I think the camera itself is one problem, because the optical piece is causing more vibration than there would be without it when vibration conditions are high (sports). But PD8 does a much better job.
3) One cannot apply certain effects in parallel, such as stabilization and speed-up clip.

All of these work fine in PD8. But surely Pinnacle 14 fixes #1; and it also has a new stabilizer function which may fix #2.

I'm hoping PD8 will have a more stable version soon so I can go with it; but if nothing comes out I'll have to try Pinnacle 14. Hopefully they have a trial version soon so I don't have to buy + pray.

David and others,

Cyberlink Customer Support did provide me with a link to download the latest 2013 version of PD8 Ultra along with the Content package.

This version seems as stable as the prior version on my hardware, which is a good thing. I am curious to see if you David or others find this to be true. Since they do not list the fixes, improvements, or others reasons for the update in any release notes, nor do they provide the update unless you contact them directly, I can only guess as to what really has changed.

To their credit, they apparently are continuing to make improvements, and the program has evolved quite nicely from a "train wreck" to a generally good program in just a few revisions over the last few months.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Sounds to me like their software release process isn't optimal, or they just don't want to tell users about embarrassing bugs they fixed in the 83 intermediate builds.

Check out this thread with info about some crashing issues: Not enough system memory question.... (http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/7909.page) => problems with rendering on several multi-core systems due to a strange "out of memory" situation. That's exactly the crash I have.

I may try upping the "processor" count on my system to see what happens. It looks like a somewhat known program bug, for which they will almost certainly have a bugfix soon. If that solves my problem, perhaps I can go with PD instead of Pinnacle when I get around to purchasing...

Dave

Thanks for the link Dave. I was unaware of this "work-around", and will definitely use it if I encounter the 'out of memory' crash. I too am using 32 bit Vista, but with 4GB, and have not seen this problem even when doing 45 minute long 1920 by 1080 AVCHD work. Hard to figure out why some users are affected and others are not.

I've been using Power Director for the last few years, but not until version 8 did it really seem like aggresive debug and customer support were added. I am mostly impressed with what they are now delivering, but I still dislike (intensely) the way they hide the revision updates.

As you saw on the thread you linked me to above, they keep sending out older revs and don't reveal newer revs unless you are smart enough to ask for them. Seems like a very foolish strategy on their part, since it forces many unneccesary support requests. Perhaps they do this to limit or prevent pirating, but not sure.

You really should try the work-around posted, and get a better chance to use 2013. You may very well find that PD8 is your favorite NLE for most work, as I did, even though I have 6 other PC apps as well as Mac apps here to chose from.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Well, new problems keep cropping up. I tried adding another effect to my video ("enhance video" or something), and besides the effect looking horrible, the app crashes halfway through. And in this case it just disappears, so I get no clue of what the error is. I'm still not convinced to get PD8 over Pinnacle 14... probably I have to try the Pinnacle 14 trial when it's available. I can deal with 3x rendering time if every vid renders properly.

Let's see if CyberLink answers any of my questions in their forums. Nothing so far.

Dave

Dave,

My personal experiences with the prior version, Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate, were very negative, and I posted numerous issues on the Pinnacle support forum. Since they did not offer a trial version, I purchased the product and then went through a few weeks of screwing around, and never got it to work well with AVCHD. Perhaps the newer release which just came out will be better.

They do NOT provide any smart render in the release from last year, and it took forever to make pretty crummy looking 1920 by 1080 video. If they did offer smart render in the new release, I would be willing to give it another chance, particularly if I did not have to pay another $129 to do so. Not sure what their upgrade policy is.

I hope Cyberlink provides you with an aswer or a possible fix. In recent days they have been quite responsive. However, they no longer issue an email when the reply on their web support forum has been updated with an answer, and therefore the customer needs to keep checking the ticket to see if it has been updated. Makes no sense at all to me as to why they changed that.....

Larry

Hi Larry,

They do offer a trial of Pinnacle 12 now, but I had to ask the online support desk who found me the link. It's not obvious. He said that eventually there would be a trial of 14 as well. Smart rendering is not mentioned in the features if I remember. But it does have the vibration reduction feature from the full Avid software, so that should be improved.

There's an upgrade version for prior owners, but it doesn't save you *that* much. Perhaps if you complain about missing features to them and get all indignant, they will offer you a free upgrade to 14...

For me, I just see that Pinnacle 12 has never crashed on me yet. Whereas with PD8 it's constant. Probably I will end up having to break up my project (an instructional DVD) into many pre-rendered 5-to-8 minute segments, then put them together somehow at the end. And avoid using too many video effects at once. Would this strategy be easy to do with PD8? Can you make a DVD (or Blu-ray) with PD8 from multiple pre-rendered project clips?

Dave

Dave,

If you have a reliable method using Pinnacle, I would stick with it. PD8 is capable of doing better looking AVCHD output since it supports smart rendering and Pinnacle does not, but the practical solution is to use what works, and apparently you are not getting any reasonable stability with PD8.

If Avid were to include smart rendering in Pinnacle 14, my major objection would disappear. The slooooow rendering speed in my current Pinnacle 12 Ultimate is my single biggest issue now, but I have certainly had my share of bugs and hangs with it as well.

Larry

I am using version 1931 released as of 09-06-2009 and it is still crashing once in a while on i7 intel, Vista-64 configuration. These Cyberlink folks are just a front for cash grabs.

Al,

You might want to contact Cyberlink at their support web site and get the newer version 2013. It may help but really not sure.

Larry

New camera, Canon 7D.

Pinnacle Studio 12.1 Does NOT support the 1920x1080 MOV format. PD 7 Ultra and 8 Ultra both will import and take it on the timeline but it will NOT play smooth on the timeline. Fortunately PD will render it out to HD WMV and that looks OK.

So I tried AVC (H.264) and selected 1920x1080, rendered it out in PD8, then imported it into Studio 12. If there is any loss of PQ, I can't see it.

I don't guess we'll see an upgrade of 12 to accommodate new emerging camera formats and I'm not much inclined to go with 14 now that they have really removed SmartSound support.

Congrats on the 7D Bruce ! Just about the time I am considering pulling the plug on PD8 it surprises me and does something really very useful which other NLEs can't handle. I too found it very nice at handling .mov files.

Did you keep the T1i or trade up?

Larry

I kept the T1i. At first I offered it for sale for $50 less than B&H would be selling it when the 7D would finally get here. I publish our photo club newsletter and added that offer in it. But the more I thought on it the more it looked smarter to keep it, gives me a lesser expensive camera to "have with me", lighter weight than the 7D, I have 4 batteries for it, and not having to sell it with the "kit" lens gives me some more lens option.

I had ordered a 24mm F2.8 EF to use much like we used to use the "shifty fifty" back before zooms got so popular (yes, I'm dating myself), I had the 50mm F1.8 EF (older metal barrel type) lens on hand so that gave me 2 sharp primes. The T1i "bag" had the 17-55mm "kit" lens and the 55-250mm EF-S so it kind of made sense to keep it.

I haven't had a chance to do much more than see if the 7D works (it does) and partially familiarize myself with it. WOW!

Manual control in video is super simple. "Dial" up M on top, pick shutter, aperture, and ISO, then use the video switch and you have it. Course, you have to kind of know what settings are needed for exposure to set it correctly and it's a good idea to keep the shutter at reasonable settings to avoid some degree of "strobing".

A more convenient way is to select AUTO for ISO setting, then shutter and aperture desired (all while in M for manual exposure still mode). Switch to video and press shutter button partway to see what ISO has been selected by the camera and judge on the LCD if this is the exposure you want. Then set that ISO manually and your exposure is "locked".

Should you be in any other mode besides M (Av, Tv, P, CA, or green box "idjit" mode) when you use the video switch, you have full auto video exposure just like the original firmware in the 5D MkII provided.

This camera is great, puts the photographer fully in charge.

I am using version 1931 released as of 09-06-2009 and it is still crashing once in a while on i7 intel, Vista-64 configuration. These Cyberlink folks are just a front for cash grabs.

Hi Al, read this thread about i7 problems. Sounds like the developers are working on it, but in the meantime you can disable some cores and get it working...
Not enough system memory question.... (http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/7909.page)

-Dave

Bruce,

The 7D sounds like a wonderful upgrade for the video photographer. I can fully understand why you would keep both bodies. The T1i is not capable of doing the video nearly as well, and the still camera features of the 7D also add a to what the T1i can do.

Dave,

Good suggestion which hopefully may allow Al to get PD8 working.

Larry

This thread seams to be idle. There are a lot of PD8 (not happy) users out there. Anyone with more problems ?

I have one and it relates to using titles and rendering to AVCHD - PD8 often hangs on this. Anyone else having similar issues ?

Hi Al, I had such problems with PD8 (and such lack of customer support) that I could bring myself to buy it, despite its fast rendering speed. One possible reason for hang on render is if you have >2 cores enabled on a 3+ core system. "Solution" is to tell Windows boot manager to use only 2 cores when you startup (!?).

In the end I bought Windows 7 and am doing a trial of Pinnacle Studio 14, which is now available (it wouldn't run on XP 64-bit because that OS is old/unsupported, but should work on XP 32-bit, or anything newer).

Studio 14 has great customer support; every time I've wanted to talk to someone (about the Trial no less) I go to the online support center and am talking with a rep in five minutes.

The new version has better AVCHD support. It shows me which parts are rendering preview in background. The motion titler is great. I haven't tried the sound features since I have my own music. It does get slow to render if a lot of f/x are enabled, but I can deal with that because it doesn't crash on render like PD8 always does. And I don't have to turn off one of my three cores. It crashes occasionally in editing, but it's stuff I can avoid, like: don't hit "undo" too many times in quick succession; don't try to do too many manipulations while it's rendering preview; save often (though its auto-save/recover is pretty good).

Some testing videos are posted on my blog (YouTube clips w/ HD links as well):
Dave's Photo & Travelblogue Climbing Zugspitze: Germany’s highest mountain (Part 1) (http://blog.daviddouglasbooks.com/index.php/2009/11/climbing-zugspitze-part-1/)
Dave's Photo & Travelblogue Climbing Zugspitze: Germany?s highest mountain (Part 2) (http://blog.daviddouglasbooks.com/index.php/2009/11/climbing-zugspitze-part-2/)

-Dave

Sorry to hear that PD8 continues to be an unusable program for you Dave. I assume that you have installed the latest PD8 release build 2220 posted about two weeks ago?

It is available at:

PowerDirector 7 ? Video Editing Software (http://tinyurl.com/nkudqb)

I've not experienced the rendering problem you mention in any recent version of PD8, but I have had hangs / crashes during burning up until this 6220 new release. It is clear that Cyberlink is trying to get this product fixed, and yet they may still have unresolved issues.

Hope you find Pinnacle to be "the right" solution for your needs.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Haven't tried the latest build yet, actually. I decided to just buy one or the other software, and since PD8 not only crashed a lot but also has MISERABLE customer service, I'm going to buy Pinnacle 14. Based on the nice quality of videos I was able to get in a short time, Pinnacle should do for my purposes. If I need heavy effects like stabilize+lighting, I'll pre-render the sequences that need it. :-)

But if I run into more problems in the future, could be I'll give PD another chance someday...

Dave