What cables are people using for tethered (single system - or backup in the camera) recording?

LENGTH: I'm thinking that I want at least 25 feet from the camera to the boom operator. Additional length is needed to go up the boom to the mic.

CABLES: I want an XLR to the camera and a headphone return. Any specific recommendations? At B&H there are lots of well regarded mic cables (Canare, Audio-Technica...), but I found few headphone extension cables.

ASSEMBLY: The cheap/easy way is to use zip ties, but they snag. Any recommendations for pairing the XLR and headphone wires?

BTW, I'm planning to set up the system with headphones on the camera operator and the boom operator. I plan to pad the input to one channel for overload protection, and I plan to pad the headphone signal to compensate, so that the channels will be balanced. During normal operation, the safety channel will have more noise, and the normal channel might occasionally clip. The camera operator would be responsible for the set-and-forget gain level, and the boom operator would be responsible only for mic position.

Stick a field mixer between the boom op and the camera and you've solved all your issues:
-the boom op can SEE and HEAR what he/she is SENDING
-by referencing the camera input level to 0dB tone from the mixer, you can set up gain staging
- the boom op and camera operator can listen to the signal at COMPLETELY different levels
- IMHO the camera operator is SOLELY responsible for ensuring that the audio that ARRIVES at the camera is usable; the boom op can't see VU meters in camera so it is COMPLETELY unfair to expect top notch operation and levels without having the ability to ride levels independent of mic proximity to source.

Thanks Shaun, but that wasn't my question. I'm shopping for cables right now. I'm budgeting for lots of stuff, including lens rentals, filters, light rentals, and possibly another mic. An additional preamp/mixer isn't in the cards right now.

I'm interested in a) knowing what length cables people are using in tethered situations, b) if they have any suggestions for good quality headphone extension cables, and c) if they recommend any specific solutions for joining the mic and headphone cables.

BTW, the preamp/mixer I'm using is the juicedLink CX231 into a Canon 5D Mark II. The link between the two is unbalanced, so I need to absolutely minimize that cable length. The boom operator will be monitoring what is being recorded by the camera, so he'll be aware if there is no sound into the camera. I'm afraid that the camera op will be so focused on video that he might not notice if there is no sound; hence, the round trip to the boom op, rather than local monitoring.

But my question is really about cables, not operation or equipment.

Well, I'm with Shaun too. It's S.O.P. when the audio matters.

However, if you'll have the opportunity to reshoot when the "set and forget and a backup audio channel" eventually fails, then maybe you can recover whatever is needed.

25' to the audio operator is the most common standard. In your situation the boom op might then have another 8' to accomodate boom pole extension.

Back with SOP, it's usually a 25' breakaway cable that connects the mixer to the camera for single system sound, or, even with double-system. The breakaway sends two xlr channels from mixer outputs, and returns one headphone from the camera. The procedure is that the audio op sends tone, cam record gain is set. Then, with a good mixer, the audio op can ride gain by listening to microphones directly, or by hitting a switch, the headphone return.

So, you might rent such a cable (and mixer, darn it!). Usually it's a single 7 or 8 conductor cable, with a breakaway connector about 1' from the camera end. Handy.

To pair cables, the slick way is to remove some connectors and slide some heat-shrink tubing down the pair - then shrink it with a heat gun.

Otherwise, zipties - snaggy. Gaffers - sticky, but works for a few days. Twisty-ties - kinda' hokey, but they work, and can be bent down so they're not as snaggy.

Seth,

Who do you rent from in the Portland area? I've checked the websites and called around (Pro Video & Tape, Picture This...), and they offer lots of video and little in the way of audio. I'm up for rentals for this project, but not hundreds of dollars for purchases right now. That said, I want some reasonably rugged cables, including spares. A breakaway would be great for safety.

The reality is that this isn't a paying gig, and my boom guy isn't very experienced. The last thing I want is for him to ride levels. I want him to focus on mic position only. I can wear headphones at the camera, watch the levels and control the juicedLink mixer gain. If we rent a field mixer, the main difference would be that I'd be standing with the boom op, rather than the camera.

For joining the cables together I use self-amalgamating tape which works well and being soft and flexible, it doesn't get snagged. Just use it closely spaced. If you want something to cover both 'properly' then flexible braid is available that goes over the two cables and is simply then stretched to length which tightens it. It's then secured at each end.

Seth,

Who do you rent from in the Portland area? I've checked the websites and called around (Pro Video & Tape, Picture This...), and they offer lots of video and little in the way of audio...
Well, it's true. I wish we had more sound gear for rent here.

Picture This is usually the first stop. For harder-to-find gear, check with these folks (http://t2audio.com/) for a referral. PS&L (http://prosoundonline.com/rentals.htm) has an extensive inventory of pro audio for music - sometimes their gear crosses over to video.

I'd forgotten about the flexible braid Paul noted for bundling cables - it expands enough that you don't have to remove connectors. I think Markertek has it.

Sounds like you'll be a busy guy on this shoot!

Jon, what you want to do is taking i.e. a 4-stranded cable like a star-quad and then terminate the endings according to your needs - that is you split the endings into an xlr + a mini-plug (mono - no need for stereo) on both sides. Make sure that both plugs can be spread apart enough to fit your camera. Keep one side male and the other female - your boom op plugs his headphones into your mini-jack and his boom cable into your xlr 3pin. This way it's also easy to add-on more length in case you'd need 50ft or whatever. Don't make the first cable longer than 25ft and depending really on your shoot it might even be shorter. It really depends of the setup. You can make this cable easily yourself of course, no need to overspend here ;-)

There's also cables out there with more than 4 strands in case you want to go stereo both ways. really no need to tape different cables together or using cable binders.

Good luck ;-)

Thanks Shaun, but that wasn't my question.

I understand your point. I wasn't answering your question but I was giving good, solid ADVICE. Which, as with ALL advice, you can take under advisement and do with as you please, based on your needs and your budget. I just think it is completely unfair to place the burden of ensuring adequate audio on a boom operator who has not been given the tools he/she needs to do his/her job properly. Even the best mechanic in the world can only do so much with a pair of pliers and screwdrivers...

I'm afraid that the camera op will be so focused on video that he might not notice if there is no sound

I've never heard that rationale in 11 years. Unless you're running two system audio, it's the op's JOB to ensure that he/she has video as well as audio, even if it's not up to the op to GET the audio (ie. boom operation or wireless lav placement)

I've never heard that rationale in 11 years. Unless you're running two system audio, it's the op's JOB to ensure that he/she has video as well as audio, even if it's not up to the op to GET the audio (ie. boom operation or wireless lav placement)
Keep in mind that this is an unpaid job, and I'm working with a team of people with limited experience. It might be the camera op's job, but I want the redundancy of the boom op hearing what is actually being recorded.

Jon, what you want to do is taking i.e. a 4-stranded cable like a star-quad and then terminate the endings according to your needs...

Thanks Karl,

I'm handy with a soldering iron, so I'm comfortable building my own cables.

Any idea where I can buy 8-pin breakaway connectors? My first choice would be from a DVInfo sponsor, but they generally sell finished goods, rather than components.

Coffey sound and Locationsound in L.A. both tend to have them in stock (plus Mogami or Canare cable stock). Also Wilcox sound in Burbank is a good place to get parts. Also, if you need special cables made the Wilcox guys are very price competitive and do very nice work!

BUT, do you really need 8pins? The simplest is really one audio line and one headphone (mono) return. By doing it that way you can easily add additional xlr cables or headphone cables extensions if you're in a bind. If you go 8pin etc. that would mean you'd have to build additional splitter cables that break those 8pins up into 2 xlr plugs of wich essentially only one get's used by the boom operator.....that would make sense only if there's a (stereo) mixer used by the boom op.

Keep in mind that this is an unpaid job, and I'm working with a team of people with limited experience. It might be the camera op's job, but I want the redundancy of the boom op hearing what is actually being recorded.

I hesitate to jump in here, but you might like this: Rolls | PM50sOB - Personal Monitor Amplifier | PM50SOB | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/231436-REG/Rolls_PM50SOB_PM50sOB_Personal_Monitor.html)
for the price of a good xlr cable you get monitoring and only have to deal with one cable. This is what we use when we occasionally have the luxury of someone to hold a boom for us...the mike signal feeds through and is unaffected by the high-impedance monitor circuit, so the boom op can hear and you only have one cable to deal with....if you do want a long monitor cable, consider xlr to trs adapters, available from such vendors as Markertek and make such a cable from an xlr cable....but it's not necessary...however, this is mic monitoring and does not monitor the camera....if that's how you want to do it.../Battle Vaughan/Miami Herald.com video team

What exactly does this thing do besides what the combined mic+headphone return already does? You still need 2 (!) cables?

Keep in mind that this is an unpaid job, and I'm working with a team of people with limited experience. It might be the camera op's job, but I want the redundancy of the boom op hearing what is actually being recorded.

Again, I understand BUT what the boom op is hearing is what is coming out of the preamps before it hits the recorder, unlike in the "olde" days where headphone monitoring COULD be E-to-E which meant that you were listening to playback off the repro heads and THEREFORE could tell if you'd overloaded the RECORDING stage and not the PREAMP stage.

Now that you've mentioned that this is unpaid, I understand a little better but I would still suggest that as a matter of course, this is a bad approach, albeit possibly the only one available to you in this case due to lack of budget.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that the method you have proposed doesn't provide the NECESSARY feedback to the person being held responsible for sound gathering that I would need to feel comfortable that I was getting good (or even SERVICEABLE) audio.

To sum up: in this case I will defer to what you need to do in your circumstance but I would never support this methodology as Standard Operating Procedure, even in a low/no budget situation.

I hope this helps and I do wish your crew luck.

Again, I understand BUT what the boom op is hearing is what is coming out of the preamps before it hits the recorder, unlike in the "olde" days where headphone monitoring COULD be E-to-E which meant that you were listening to playback off the repro heads and THEREFORE could tell if you'd overloaded the RECORDING stage and not the PREAMP stage.

The 5D Mark II with the Magic Lantern firmware monitors the signal after the A/D converter and digital processing stage. It doesn't monitor what is actually encoded into the MOV file and written to the card, but the recorded audio format is uncompressed PCM, so what you hear is the final, digital product.

So, this setup does tell us if we've overloaded the recording (A/D) stage, but doesn't ensure that it got on the CF card. If the camera isn't writing the A/V to the card, we've got bigger problems do deal with.

Any idea where I can buy 8-pin breakaway connectors? My first choice would be from a DVInfo sponsor, but they generally sell finished goods, rather than components.

I think you're right - there isn't a DV-Info sponsor that stocks raw components. I've been happy with Redco Audio (http://redco.com) for raw snake cable, connectors & such. A friend who built my breakaway cable used a 7-pin Neutrik XLR for the break - probably ganged all the grounds. I've not taken the meter to it to find out, but it works fine (2x XLR plus Headphone).

A good breakaway will also include a paralleled headphone jack at the camera end, so the cam op can listen on cans if he/she wishes. A nice velcro hanger to strap the short end to a camera or tripod handle. Color coding on the channels... etc.

Quote: What exactly does this thing do besides what the combined mic+headphone return already does? You still need 2 (!) cables? / Karl Lohninger


The way it is used requires a cable from the mike to the monitor, which is the boom cable; the monitor is usually worn on the operator's belt. Then one from the monitor to the mixer or camera. The monitor is in the middle between them, so there is, in effect, only one cable running from the boom to the camera or mixer, rather than having a mike cable and a monitor return cable dragging behind one../ B Vaughan

So the boom op/sound person does not get a monitor feed from the camera if I understand that correctly. If so, that gadget puzzles me. I still don't know in what way this box is helping? If the sound person doesn't get a return feed from the camera how does he/she know the signal actually arrives there?

As I said in my original message, this works well if the boom person is monitoring the mike itself, which is the traditional duty. If one is to monitor the camera -- hey, it's not my production, but I should think the DP would have phones on --- then, of course, it would require a return cable. Thus my suggestion to make the return cable from an xlr cable with xlr to trs adapters, rather than trying to find a 25 foot or so headphone cable.....bv

...make the return cable from an xlr cable with xlr to trs adapters, rather than trying to find a 25 foot or so headphone cable.
This makes a lot of sense. I know that there are long headphone cables out there, but they aren't necessarily as rugged as mic and snake cables. Also, if all the cables are XLR, that gives better flexibility in case of a failure.

So, I built my cables, including breakaway connectors, and I have a question: it seems that the breakaway connector holds tight when you pull on the cable, and pops out if you pull it by the body. I was assuming that it would pop off if somebody tripped over the cable, but that clearly won't happen when the thing is in it's natural state.

Are people inserting a ring to keep the connection loose? Are you hooking up a safety cable that pulls on the body when the cable is pulled? Or is this more of a quick-disconnect than a safety feature?

Thanks!

So, I built my cables, including breakaway connectors, and I have a question: it seems that the breakaway connector holds tight when you pull on the cable, and pops out if you pull it by the body. I was assuming that it would pop off if somebody tripped over the cable, but that clearly won't happen when the thing is in it's natural state.

Are people inserting a ring to keep the connection loose? Are you hooking up a safety cable that pulls on the body when the cable is pulled? Or is this more of a quick-disconnect than a safety feature?

Thanks!

The break-away connector is definitely intended as a quick-disconnect, not a safety. When a run-and-gun news team, where the idea originated, are working on the move while tethered, the last thing you want is for the cable to easily break apart in mid-shot. My cable, purchased from Trew, uses a latching Neutric connector for the break-away explicitly so it WON'T come apart with a simple tug.

Thanks Steve,

I must have misread some other posts. They were talking about breakaways in the context of producers tripping over cables.

Probably the main safety item is to use a cable tie at the bottom of one of the legs of the tripod. If somebody yanks on the cable, it won't have the leverage to topple the tripod. I made the cable from the camera to breakaway connector long enough to go from top to bottom with the tripod fully extended, so I'm good to go...

One tip that I stumbled across is that you can't simply connect the inline male and female breakaway connectors (OSC8M and OSC8F). You need to buy the MC8 shell and use that, rather than the standard shell on one of the connectors.

Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik OSC8F & OSC8M Connectors Neutrik Neutricon Connectors at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Connectors/Neutrik-Neutricon-Connectors/Neutrik-USA-Inc/OSC8F.xhtml)

Neutrik USA Inc Neutricon MC8 Cable Mount Housing Neutrik Neutricon Connectors at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Connectors/Neutrik-Neutricon-Connectors/Neutrik-USA-Inc/MC8.xhtml)

FWIW, I ended up using a two-channel star quad Canare snake cable.

Canare Corporation Of America Canare L-4E3-P Series Multi Channel Star Quad Audio Snake Cable Bulk Audio Cable at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Audio-Cable/Canare-Corporation-Of-America/L-4E3-2P.xhtml)

I used Neutrik XX-series XLRs.

Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik 3-Pin XX Series Female and Male XLR Cable Connectors XLR Connectors at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Connectors/XLR-Connectors/Neutrik-USA-Inc/NC3FXX.xhtml)

Neutrik USA Inc Neutrik 3-Pin XLR Right Angle Female Cable Connectors XLR Connectors at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Connectors/XLR-Connectors/Neutrik-USA-Inc/NC3FRX.xhtml)

And for the headphone link, I went ahead and soldered 1/8" stereo male and female connectors directly. Yeah, I could have used XLRs and adapters, but That would just mean more cost and more points of possible failure. XLRs might offer more flexibility, but, frankly, I just want a mic send and headphone return.

I used shrink tubing to keep everything strong and clean.

The cables are all together and test out fine. I'll bring my older, separate cables as backups.

Thanks to everybody for providing your inputs.

Got mine ready made from Trew. Has a 10pin Hirose on one end for my 442 mixer, the other end breaks out to 2xXLR plus 1/8 plug for headphone return. The phones return line has a tap to an inline jack so the camera op can also plug in and listen if he wants. The nice thing about this one is the breakaway is just a few feet from the camera end and they have other camera ends available such as one with 2xXLR plus a 5 pin for playback from many HD cameras.

Going ready made isn't a bad way to go. I've been soldering stuff since I was a kid, and I have all the tools, but it still took a number of hours to put everything together.

Overall, I modified my Boosteroo 3-output headphone amp plug to mate with the 5D Mark II A/V out, and provide a composite video output. I made the six foot camera breakaway cable, as well as the 25-footer to the boom. I also made a star quad mic cable with right angle connector for the boom itself.

The worst connector by far was the 4-pin, 1/8" AV cable. The solder points on that thing are tiny! I wonder if it was missing a piece. It looked like one would solder to something larger and slip it over the tiny pins. Oh well. It works, is solid, and the ohm-meter claims that it's all good - and I have a back up strategy!

I always use Switchcraft XLRs because there is no platsic end to break off when someone rolls an Anvil case over one like the Neutrik ones do. I noticed they say they are redesigned, though, so maybe they are better now.

I always use Switchcraft XLRs because there is no platsic end to break off when someone rolls an Anvil case over one like the Neutrik ones do. I noticed they say they are redesigned, though, so maybe they are better now.

The XX-series has a metal business end, but the part at the cable-end is plastic and rubber. A wheel would have to roll just right to put weight on the plastic without getting enough support from the metal to protect it. Of course, Murphy's Anvil case would find a way...

The bigger problem that I see is that once you slide the female connector piece into the shell, I cannot see how one would be able to get it back off. That could make repairs difficult. (I bet there's a trick, but it stumped me!)

Sunday night, we completed a 48-hour film (with eight minutes to spare.)

The 2-channel snake with quick disconnect was VERY nice to have. It allowed us to have the camera and tripod pre-wired and tied down with Velcro. The boom op could plug in at a moment's notice, and we didn't have to deal with the tangle of multiple, parallel cables.

The star quad did it's job. I'd tell everybody to turn off their cell phones, and I'd turn mine off too. Except that when it looks like it's shutting down, and I close it, it stays alive! Fortunately, we didn't get one beep's worth of cellphone buzz. Both the boom op and I (AC) were monitoring with headphones. We caught every stray noise. We could hear cars in the distance before anybody on the crew could. The crew started asking us the make, model, and year of the vehicle!

Anyway, we got no preamp noise worth mentioning, and no clipping whatsoever. (We used a juicedLink CX231 into the 5D Mark II and Magic Lantern firmware.) A better mic than our AT815b (outdoors and in a large theater) would have sounded sweeter, but I can't complain. We produced a technically solid and credible result. The clients (our crew and I) are very pleased. :)

Thanks to everybody for your assistance!

Keep in mind that this is an unpaid job.

Jon,

I've known you on this forum for a while. With all due respect, I consider the words "unpaid" and "job" to be mutually exclusive. Why bother to put yourself through all of this for no pay?

Regards,

Ty Ford

I've known you on this forum for a while. With all due respect, I consider the words "unpaid" and "job" to be mutually exclusive. Why bother to put yourself through all of this for no pay?

It was the 48 Hour Film Project, so "job" was the wrong word. For me it's a serious hobby, in that I put money into buying stuff.

This is really an investment into my kids. Nathan, 22 and about to complete a business degree, was the director/editor. Michael, 17, was the boom op, mixed the dialog, and had his first experience in sound design. (He's caught be bug, now recording odds and ends to build up a library.) My daughter, 19, was one of the actors.

Providing this experience could help them launch careers in the industry. That's my pay. :) Nathan has already done a small number of paying jobs.

Me? I've got a good career.

BTW, here's the result. (Keep in mind that, aside from me, nobody on the crew was over 23 years old, and none are doing this professionally.)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/eos-series-sample-clips-gallery/305605-dream-job-48-hour-film-p3pictures.html

Great result.... a fun watch.