Right now I've started a thread that asks for engineering comments about flipping the image digitally. Of course, that's quite a ways away at this point and many of you, like myself, need at least a temporary solution for viewing an upright image when recording. The common solution seems to be buying a 4.5" lcd monitor and mounting it upside down next to the camcorder. This will work, but is pretty expensive for a temporary solution.

I've found a much less expensive solution for the time being. When you flip the camcorder's lcd around to be viewed from the front, the image flips vertically. Also, with mirror mode enabled, the horizontal orientation flips as well. That means if you put a 45 degree mirror in front of the lcd, reflecting the image up, both the left/right and top/bottom will be properly oriented via the mirror. Granted, the camcorder will still record upside down and it will have to be flipped in post, but at least this is a good start.

Right now I'm trying to build a mirror thingie out of cardboard. Hopefully I'll post pics later this evening.

If anyone else wants to start working on one too, you'll need a 2.5" x 2.5" mirror to view the entire lcd screen (for a 2.5" lcd screen). Then just figure out a way to mount it at 45 degrees and you're set.

Okay, I did it wrong, I'm dumb. Even though the mirror mode lets it flip vertically, its still upside down horizontally. Sorry about that.

i'm not sure, but...

as you all know - the flip out monitor has its feature to switch the picture upside down and left to right. and also - as you know - that very responsible for switching button/sensor is hidden below the surface of the camera.

so, does it means that if we are able to play with that specific button/sensor responsible for that upside/flip situation we can make it happen even if the flip monitor is NOT turned upside down?

what i want to ask/check is following: - if i unscrew the screws around that flip out monitor and find a button/sensor - if i press the button for good, will i receive the upside down picture or not?

if i'm right - the sensor will think that monitor is in upside position (event if it is not) - and switch the image...

i'm not now in position to check this with my cameras, but maybe someone has it's camera around...

what do you think?

filip

Yes, that's right.
Just on the side of the LCD of a Vx2000 , not on the LCD but just right to it ,there is a plastic cover whit only 1 screw at the botom. Remove that screw,remove the cap and the switch is just there. Flip 180 degre.

Alain Dumais

Just to get a solid idea of what you've found, here are some pics I found on the net of the side view (http://www.global-dvc.org/html/behindLCD2.jpg) and rear view (http://www.saferseas.com/vsd/eye/vx2000/VXFromRear.jpg) of a VX2000 lcd. Can you describe which screw(s) must be removed to reveal this switch?

I'm using a GL2, so hopefully I can take your discovery and somehow apply it to my camcorder.

Here a pic of what I did.

http://www.kheops-tech.com/~ad3d/invert.jpg

I just put a plastic pin in the hole when I need to flip .
Pretty easy to set up and working just fine.

Alain

Here is a very interesting software for those ho have to render to rotate the image.

http://www.leadtools.com/SDK/Multimedia/Direct-Show-Filters/Multimedia-DirectShow-Rotate.htm

There is a demo available for download

Alain

I just got done operating on my GL2 a little while ago and am happy with the results. The GL2 is actually totally different (at least the procedure that I took) than the VX2000 when flipping the image. After unscrewing the equivalent cover that Alain indicated, no progress was made. The cover refused to come off because it is affixed inside the lcd screen housing. However, right below the center axle of the lcd is a little magnet (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicholossia/detail?.dir=/8fe9&.dnm=f3bc.jpg) that pops out when you poke at it with tweezers. This magnet is responsible for giving the lcd screen the instructions to invert. When its removed, the screen doesn't change. Therefore, the lcd should invert the image whenever that designated area of the lcd comes in the magnetic field's range... and it does. After sliding the magnet into the proper spot (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicholossia/detail?.dir=/8fe9&.dnm=3aea.jpg), the screen flips and makes me very happy.

Thanks Alain for the idea and giving me the courage to dig into this.

Now when you guys force the image to flip upside down (right side up in this case) as described above does it also correct the image left to right? As I remember it didnt when I tried this but its been awhile so refresh me.

-Brett

With the GL2, you have the option of enabling "mirror mode" when the screen is flipped. Turning that on lets you see the image properly. That ends up working out great. I'm pretty sure the VX2000 does that as well, but not certain.

Also, for the GL2, a small piece of thin refrigerator magnet actually works for flipping the image. After finding the right spot, just tape it on there and you're all set.

Im jealous. I didnt think my DVX has a mirror function. Great find!

so guys, who did this first , and didn't tell to the others? :)))

filip

in other words does this mean that lcd flipping/inverting problem is solved and that thread (about inverting the image) can be closed for good?

can you put here maybe a list with the cameras where and how this can be done and we're ok.

what do you think?

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Alain Dumais : Here a pic of what I did.

http://www.kheops-tech.com/~ad3d/invert.jpg

I just put a plastic pin in the hole when I need to flip .
Pretty easy to set up and working just fine.

Alain -->>>

alain,

can you tell me WHEN you did this? just at the same time as i "suggested", or you tested it after the readings or you did it much earlier?


just curious

filip

Well, it looks like Alain and/or Filip get credit for the VX2000 image flip. I certainly won't complain if you want to give me credit for the GL2 discovery :)).

Yeah, I think that means we've solved the problem for VX2000 and GL2 as far as lcd inverting, but not the tape recording. Granted, with all the real-time editors now, inverting shouldn't be too much of a problem soon.

Tomorrow I'll post a detailed breakdown, with pics, of how to rig the GL2's lcd. Add that to you guys posting a how-to for the VX2k and that covers a lot of camcorders. Hopefully Brett will discover a DVX solution too.

I know this is little, but its still pretty exciting to me. Too bad Busta Rhymes is already using the name "Flipmode Squad" because that would really fit us at this point ;).

Brett, good news... you don't need the mirror mode to get a properly inverted and reverted image. I thought I had the setting on this whole time, but it was actually off. So you just have to figure out how to trick your DVX's lcd into flipping the image.

I did that after I have bouhgt a 2nd monitor and understand that all those monitor are crap , If I whant something good it's gone cost a lot. I knew that this is fesable but was just afraid to open the cover and broke something.
And I am more worry about anamorphique lens for the moment. ;¬)

It look's like my other post havent got your attention about this software, take a serious look to it .

http://www.leadtools.com/SDK/Multimedia/Direct-Show-Filters/Multimedia-DirectShow-Rotate.htm

There is a demo version.This software can flip the image at the capture. $149

Brett I have try to send you the images you have ask me but it alway's bounce.
Alain

Hey all,

I spent today working on my Sony PD100A (DVCAM version of TRV900). The flip out monitor is just like the VX2000. I ended up drilling a hole in the little cover plate shown in Alain's picture posted earlier. I use a filed-down finish nail to depress the little internal button. It works fine though I have to figure out a better way to keep the button depressed.

I also discovered that the inverted image is still reversed left for right so I'm now thinking about making a monitor hood with a glass mirror to completely correct the image. Sadly, I can't figure out a way to electronically reverse the image. I guess my Sony doesn't have a mirror setting for the monitor.

I look at correcting the image in the monitor only as a temporary fix until I can get a hold of a Sony engineer who'll spill the beans on how to internally modify the camera for inverted shooting. Well, at least I won't have to buy a crumby little LCD monitor. Any ideas or suggestions are always welcomed. Joe

Turns out the DVX100 DOES have a mirror/normal option in it's menus. So the DVX users can completely correct their image BUT its important to note for all reading this thread that these changes only effect the camera's monitor and DO NOT correct the image being recorded to tape.

-Brett

maybe there is another solution for users who are working with the cameras where is no possibility to change mirror (left to right) option when using "pin inverter", like in sony pd100. you can make picture upside down, but not left-right


i checked that now with my pd100 camera. there is small part below that cover where the pin is inserted.

(alain, with your permition, i will use this as a reference)

http://www.kheops-tech.com/~ad3d/invert.jpg

so the idea is following:

1) the metal part which is switching monitor picture upside down and left/right is part of that turning ring where the monitor is conected to the camera body. ok. good for now, next.

2) you already drilled a hole for "pin inverter", like myself and many others, good.

and now, the best part...

3) CUT out that metal part!!!!! from the "ring" (it looks like hook)

you already have "pin inverter" - right - so you can make your picture any way you want, right? but not left/right? yes?

now you can - when you cut that metal part, turn your flip monitor upside down and nothing will happened.... no change at all!!!!

from now on - there is no mechanical part which will invert/revert the picture, he, he... and you receive proper image for your aldu/agus!

now you can push your flip monitor back, close to the camera body, so you can see it.

look at it and work "normally" i know that now you must look at the side which is littlebit confusing, but at least it's not oriented left/right.


isn't it great?

filip

I notice yesterday that ,whit the pin insert ,when I go in a menu or custum setting the image flip left right. So there is certainly a way to do this by programing.

Alain

<<<-- Originally posted by Brett Erskine : Turns out the DVX100 DOES have a mirror/normal option in it's menus... -->>>

Hey Brett, are you saying the "Normal/Mirror" setting in the DISPLAY SETUP flips the image in the LCD when set to Mirror? Mine doesn't.

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : maybe there is another solution for users who are working with the cameras where is no possibility to change mirror (left to right) option when using "pin inverter", like in sony pd100. you can make picture upside down, but not left-right .....


isn't it great?

filip -->>>

Filip,
That is a great idea. I don't know if I'm ready to tear into the monitor mount enough to be able to remove the metal piece that switches to inverted mode. At least not just yet. I am working on an idea of a roof mirrored hood that might do the trick. If it works, anyone would be able to make one of these mirrored hoods to correct the image completely in the monitor without any surgery. I'll post it here when It's ready. I'm also checking some of the optic surpluss sites for a small image correcting prism for use with my viewfinder. Correcting the image in the viewfinder would make handholding an Aldu 35 more pleasant. Thanks again for the great idea. I might have to revert to doing the surgery after all. Nurse! Where's my scalpel!!! :>0

Joe

Since the purpose of the "mirror" function on the DVX is to be used in face-to-face shooting (SELFSHOOT), how would it help resolve the flipped image? It doesn't work unless the LCD monitor is flipped 180 degrees toward the lens.

I'm going to eventually get a set of screwdrivers small enough to unscrew the two small screws on the pivot piece of the DVX100's LCD, to see whether there's anything in there that can be switched or tampered with.

Has anyone tried this on the DVX100 already?

Hey Nicholi and everyone, I started experimenting and found a magnet near the LCD pivot on the DVX, just as Nicholi described on the GL2. Thanks for the link and for posting your response, Nicholi.

By placing my own little magnet in the appropriate spot I got the image to flip as needed. Thankfully I didn't have to dismantle the camera or anything. It's pretty easy to figure out, so I'm sure that anyone who read your post and tried for themselves figured this out too.

It's great that everyone can pitch in a nice little contribution to this effort every now and again, and that people here aren't hoarding discoveries to themselves. This latest tip will save DVX users and others a nice chunk of money by avoiding prismfinders or external LCDs for monitoring purposes. I'm glad that people here are willing to share their findings. It's a very positive thing.

this is great to hear - that dvx also have this magnetic trick! great to know.

filip

Thanks! ...
...now where did I put thoughs damn screws..

-Brett Erskine

That's great to hear Joel. I think tricking the lcd like this is much more presentable than a big upside down monitor and will look more professional during shoots.
Right now I'm just using my GL2, which I love, but that DVX100A is sure looking good.

Excellent!

I just tried the idea of using a magnet to trick the monitor to flip the image and it works....BUT I think the magnet might be harmful to the monitor because it started to flash and loose the signal. Im not sure if you can do fatal damage to it so before you try it for yourself hop on google and find out what magnets do to LCD screens.

-Brett

maybe your magnet is too strong?

i know that you can do many nice and funny things with normal CRT screen but with relativelly big magnet.

can you measure the "power " of magnet, and how? (in DIY way of course)

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corkin : By placing my own little magnet in the appropriate spot . -->>>


joel,

maybe you have some jpgs to show us the magnet's size?

did you find anything on your lcd screen, some artefacts caused by that very magnet?

if yes - maybe also some jpgs?

thank you

filip

Try different magnets, and positioning. The magnet might be too strong and interfere with the signal, but maybe it is not storng enough and the device keeps trying to reset to normal. Different magnets have different dimensions in their feild shape. So some might be more constricted in the area and direction they work, and can be positioned and aimed better. Rare Earth magnets are the strongest and could interfere with the electronics, destabilise compoonents (like the original magnet) and I think, maybe even wipe parts of your tape reel.

Like the other replies, it sounds to me like you're using too strong of a magnet. The magnet I used is very very very weak, so weak that it just barely sticks to metal if at all. I just took one of those thin business card refrigerator magnets and cut off a strip. Then I just wedged the strip between the lcd body and the base, with the black surface facing the lcd. It took a couple times to get the trick, but after that it was fairly easy. I can even tilt the camera around without the screen flipping or anything.

Sounds like mine is to strong. Its strong enough to hold a dozen papers on a fidge. I'll have to try cut a piece off a weaker one as you recomended. Thanks.

Sorry no frame grabs and Im worried about doing it to get some.
-Brett

hey guys, i have plenty (32 pieces, he, he...) magnets here, from my tourist chess set. does anyone tested this (the magnets, not the chess game:) - i'm not in home now, so cannot test the camera with it. any thoughts?

Hi everyone, sorry, I have been in the process of moving houses and things still aren't set up, so I won't be able to send a jpg of the magnet. However, as has been suggested, I would recommend trying lower powered magnets if you encounter interference. The one I am using may or may not be optimal, however, so far it hasn't interfered with the LCD screen's operation.

The magnet is chrome metallic in color, so it is probably a manufactured magnet as opposed to a rare earth magnet. It is disc shaped with a 1cm diamter and a 1-2 mm thickness.

I think a cut up fridge magnet would work quite well, actually.

I tried a fridge magnet. Put it right up agaist the little sensor thing that reacts with whatever magnet is inside the swivel arm attachment. I could only get it to flip once, very quickly, but couldn't reproduce the results again. I even squeezed my finger in there and pressed the magnet snugly against the little sensor. Nothing. My feeling is that those fridge magnets are too weak... or at least the two that I tried are. Whatever magnet is being used inside the arm attachment, it's much stronger in power than the fridge magnet, cause it doesn't even have to touch the sensor for it to trigger.

I'm trying to find some other household found magnet that will work... suggestions?

John

The magnet in the GL2 looks very similar to the ones found in those fake magnetic earrings. That might be an option.

Picked up about $12 worth of magnets today from the hobby shop, varying from small to relatively thick in size - perhaps 10 different magnets in all.

However, to my dissapointment, not a single one of them worked on the DVX - they had no effect at all. Maybe because they were 'craft' magnets and not powerful enough, or maybe I'm just not placing them correctly. I'm assuming on the inside of the lcd pivot (screen facing you). Whenever I get a chance next I plan to pick up the next line of magnets they sell, called "power magnets."

Meanwhile, has anyone had any luck finding a magnet that works reliably to flip the image on the DVX lcd screen, without damaging it?

I've tried using the thin rubbery strip type magnets (the kind you can cut with scissors). It's strong enough to hold up papers. I pushed it in the pivot opening. All it did was turn the screen black.

i saw the same effect with my magnet - the black screen. tryed diffrent places - nothing.

can someone who really did the trick, and who is kind enough - to send us jpg or whatever graphic file to show where EXACTLY magnet is placed on DVX camera.

thanks,

filip

I can take a photo of the magnet and e-mail it somewhere for someone to host. The DVX is the only camera I have so I have nothing with which to take a picture of the LCD pivot.

The magnet I use is actually a small disc about 1cm diameter and 2mm thick. It comes off the back of one of those LED earings with two diodes that blink on and off. You could probably find them in your local Chinatown, or off of a night-time street vendor who goes to restaurants and clubs trying to sell trinkets like these.

As for the positioning of the magnet that's simple enough to figure out. All you have to do is take a metal screw or nail and move it around the LCD pivot area until you find the spot that attracts the screw. That should also give you an idea about the strength of the magnet you'll need and where to place it once you see what position the LCD would have to be in to come in contact with that magnet and do the image flip.

feel free to download a picture from my site and use the one which fits best. just draw color circle around that area where the magnet should be placed. and re- send it to me. i can then publish just the proper image/s with better resolution and explanation - if needed.


go there:

http://www.astercity.net/~tarasuma/dvx_page.html


thank you,


filip

p.s.

you can send the corrected (with circle) picture to my mail address:

filip@acn.waw.pl

or

tri_color@poczta.onet.pl

Unless the DVX is very different than the GL2, you guys are making this a lot more complicated than it really is. The process is actually very easy. All you need is a piece of a thin magnet (http://www.physlink.com/estore/cart/MagnetBusinessCards.cfm) from either a magnetic business card or a sheet from a craft store.

Open the lcd screen (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicholossia/detail?.dir=/8fe9&.dnm=c77c.jpg) all the way and rotate the lcd to a 45 degree angle.
Wedge the magnet (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicholossia/detail?.dir=/8fe9&.dnm=ec7a.jpg) between the lcd hinge and lcd body with the black surface facing the lcd screen. You may have to tilt/swing the lcd in order to get a better angle.
Rock the magnet back and forth and in and out until you notice the screen flip (http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicholossia/detail?.dir=/8fe9&.dnm=7a9c.jpg). Take note of this location and keep trying until you get the hang of it. On the GL2, the sweet spot is about half of the depth and closer to the front of the camcorder.

Once you've done it a few times and can consistantly find the sweet spot, cut the magnet down to smaller size that won't be as visible.

I managed to find the sweet spot on the DVX finally, using one of my little square magnets.

http://www.3dkevlar.com/sweet_spot.jpg

By turning the magnet on its side and pressing it up against the red colored section of the image, right up against the lcd screen with the white side facing the camera, I was able to get the image to flip very reliably, and without distortion. It only works when the lcd is pulled out all the way, and tilted up at a 45 degree angle.

The magnet is about the size of a dime, but is square, and about as thick as 4 or 5 dimes stacked together with a piece of white plastic on one side. Picked it up at Hobby Lobby in a bag of about 10 for $1.47. If anyone's interested, the brand name is simply called "Craft Magnets."

I can take a photo of it working with the magnet later on if needbe, just tied up at the moment.

I just sent some photos to Filip. It really should be easy to figure out where the magnet ought to be if you rub a piece of metal lightly around the DVX LCD pivot with the screen open. You could also look at the photos of the GL2 which works on the same principle.

use the following link to my site to resolve the secret position of magnet for your dvx camera. arrows courtesy of joel :)

http://www.astercity.net/~tarasuma/dvx_page.html

enjoy

filip

i just updated the above link - now you can CLEARLY see where the magnet is positioned, how it looks, and how it works with DVX.
it really WORKS!!!

dv info net rules!

filip

http://www.astercity.net/~tarasuma/dvx_page.html