What format would be best to record in for compatability and ease of use with Avid and Final Cut. Currently my clients would tend to have one or the other and I'd like to make it as easy for them as possible.
If I record .mov it'll go into FCP easy but how easy into Avid? And vice versa, presumably .mxf will be easy for Avid, but will it need transcoding for FCP?
Steve

Dear Steve,

At this time, we have a Mac utility, that we provide for free, that converts our Quicktime files to MXF format.

Thus, for widest compatibility and flexibility, we recommed recording in Quicktime format.

Then, if you have a Mac, or access to a Mac, you can convert our Quicktime files easily to MXF format.

Please note that this is not a transcode, no image quality is lost.

Also note that, at this time, we do not have a PC utility that converts MXF to Quicktime, only a Mac utility that converts Quicktime to MXF.

Our utility can be downloaded here:

It is called "File Converter"

Convergent Design, experts in HDMI, SD, HD, and HDV (http://www.convergent-design.com/Updates_FlashXDR.htm)

I have found NOTHING that converts Avid's MXF formats to anything else. That is the biggest one-way street I think I have seen yet in video. VERY frustrating.

MXF is a big lie when it comes to the idea of it enabling open exchange between editors and platforms.

Dear Perrone,

Our File Converter utility is limited in scope.

We convert our Quicktime file to MXF, which can then be imported into Avid, Edius, Sony Vegas, maybe others.

We do not convert Quicktime generated by others.

Thanks Dan, that's perfect, I have a Macbook Pro. How long does this conversion take, you say it's not a transcode so is it fairly speedy?
Steve

Dear Steve,

I have not measured it, but it should take about the same time as it does to copy the file from it's current location to the destination.

I have used it and did not find the time objectionable at all.

I like the idea of being on set, recording in one format, Quicktime, then being able to later deliver in another format, if necessary, without any transcoding. I consider this as "Insurance".

Probably the main thing is the ability to do it yourself before you supply to the client. The last thing you want is to tell them that it won't work as you send it and they'll have to transfer/convert it to something else! You just want ot be able to say "here's the material, stick it in your suite and off you go".
I don't know about you but Apple and FCP seem to be ahead of the game in general in making things work, especially where new formats are concerned. With XDCam HD for instance it seemed to be flawless in FCP very early on while Avid needed workarounds for ages, and even then little things like if you recorded in Cache loop mode it didn't take it in. The same goes for RED, where they had things tied down really quick in FCP.
Steve

Dear Steve,

One nice point for Avid, is that they handle our I-Frame Only footage very nicely, even at very high bit rates.

With FCP, it is almost magical how well how our Long-GOP footage works.

I do not remember, at this moment, how well our I-Frame Only works with FCP, it probably works great, I just can't remember.

Personally, I prefer our 100 Mbps Long-GOP, so I have more experience with FCP with our Long GOP.

Dan,
Why would Avid not handle the long GOP material as well as FCP?
Does Avid not handle 100 mbps long GOP material?

These are questions that I have not been able to find an answer for in any of the online material. Thanks for your help.

Dear Bob,

I think it is just a matter of the software implementation.

We believe it is just a simple matter of Avid's input buffer size.

If Avid is loading a small amount of the file at a time, then as the file's bit-rate gets higher, then a "well-oiled" software program that works great, as intended for 50 Mbps XDCam footage, could easily not work as well at 100 Mbps.

The solution is simple, if I am correct, is to just increase the buffer size in the Avid program and read in more data at a time.

Disclaimer: This is only a theory, and I have not yet spoken to Avid about this.
Also, Avid would know if this is true, and they would be ones to correct it.

Dan,
Thank you for your reply.

So, as far as you know at this point Avid will not handle 100 mbps long GOP?

But, it will handle most (all) of the I frame bit rates that you offer with the nanoflash, as well as the 50 mbps long GOP?

The reason I am trying to understand the specs is that I do use Avid at this point and they are always very slow to implement any code, format that they do not presently support. I have to know what I can and cannot work with today, not a year or more from now.

Dear Bob,

I am very sorry if I conveyed the idea that our 100 Mbps footage would not work in Avid.

It will.

Avid just works better with our 50 Mbps footage than it does with our 100 Mbps footage.


Also, I was trying to say that Avid does a great job with our I-Frame Only footage, even at our highest bit rates.


I will check with our engineers on Monday to ensure that I have given 100% accurate information. They are more knowledgeable, as they routinely test our footage with all of the NLE's. We go through very thorough and time-consuming testing with each firmware release.

Dan,
Thanks again for following up on these questions. I do understand what a task it is to try to provide formats for so many NLE's out there today. You guys have done a great job of providing compatibility.

I just need to know the workflow options that I will have using Avid. 50 mbps long GOP will work for most of my needs, especially if it includes over and undercrank. The I frame options should work for all my other needs. Sounds like the 100 mbps material might have to be transcoded in Avid before editing. Good to know that it will work.

If you could confirm the information that you provided this next week, it would be greatly appreciated.

Dear Bob,

Yes, I will confirm the information.

We will be testing our over and under-cranking feature in both Long-GOP and I-Frame Only.

It may be that it will work in I-Frame Only mode.

We started this feature, but delayed it while we devoted most of our efforts to the nanoFlash. We expect that we will be back working on this feature fairly soon.

I will stay tuned to see how the testing comes out. In the meantime I will download some 100 mbps files from your web site and see how Avid deals with the files.

Thanks again.

Dear Bob,

That is a great idea!

Dear Perrone,

Our File Converter utility is limited in scope.

We convert our Quicktime file to MXF, which can then be imported into Avid, Edius, Sony Vegas, maybe others.

We do not convert Quicktime generated by others.

Dan, I wasn't laying the complaint at your feet. It's just somewhat frustrating that there are so many tools to get to Avid, and no a single one from anyone to leave it.

I have found NOTHING that converts Avid's MXF formats to anything else. That is the biggest one-way street I think I have seen yet in video. VERY frustrating.

MXF is a big lie when it comes to the idea of it enabling open exchange between editors and platforms.

Dear Perrone,

If you have the ability to play a timeline, or portion there of, out of your Avid system via HD-SDI, you could use a Flash XDR/nanoFlash to record your timeline to any of the formats we support: Quicktime/MXF, Long GOP/I-Frame Only, at Various bit rates.

If you have a nanoFlash and you can play out an HDMI port, then we can record it also.
(Please note, I have not tested this at this time.)

I wonder if the new Video Cards that support HDMI can output a 1920 x 1080 high quality image via their HDMI output. If so, then, with a nanoFlash, one could easily record the output in any of our formats/modes/bit-rates.

Then, the files that we create can be imported into any NLE that we typically support.

I have found NOTHING that converts Avid's MXF formats to anything else. That is the biggest one-way street I think I have seen yet in video. VERY frustrating.

MXF is a big lie when it comes to the idea of it enabling open exchange between editors and platforms.

Perrone,
MXF is a format that is used by Sony (XDCAM) and Panasonic (P2) as an aquisition format. Many NLE's (Avid, Adobe Premeire, and Vegas) can now handle and edit the files as native files. MXF is not very efficient as an editing format (and was not developed as such) but, Avid has provided a way to transcode MXF to their DNXHD codec for editing and export.

I am not sure of the exact problems that you are having, but Avid does provide a solution to converting MXF to DNXHD which is an open exchange between different editors. This is not an Avid issue. They did not develop the recording specs, they only support them in their editing platform, as do others.

In reality, mxf is a universal wrapper, very much like Quicktime of AVI. It's only a box, a package to carry what's on the inside. Avid mxf carries a RAW format video file. One can demux Avid, just like any other mxf. The problem is that you need to be able to read RAW to view it.

If you are using Avid MXF files created in Avid, the you can view them in Avid.

If you are trying to show Avid files to another, such as a client (who does not have Avid), then you can export the files as Quicktimes.

I guess I do not see what the real issue or problem is.

If you are using Avid MXF files created in Avid, the you can view them in Avid.

If you are trying to show Avid files to another, such as a client (who does not have Avid), then you can export the files as Quicktimes.

I guess I do not see what the real issue or problem is.

The "problem" as it were, is that I do not own an Avid system. Or this would be trivial. I merely have to work with others who have Avid systems. I have the ability to create Avid MXF files, but I cannot read them, and cannot find a single utility ANYWHERE that allows one to be converted.

Avid's MXF file format is completely different than Sony and Panasonic's. They chose to implement the MXF in a different way than anyone else which ensures their MXF files do not trade with other's. I can't even open the Avid MXF files I create to check them before hand-off.

So the solution is... buy Avid. Easy enough, but just not feasible in this economy and with my government budget right now. With the cuts in my department right now, I was lucky to be able to upgrade my 5 year old editing machine this year. An Avid system just wasn't in the cards.

What's truly surprising is that with the dozens of video converters out there both free and for pay, no one has a converter for Avid MXF. No one.

Dan,
Thanks again for following up on these questions. I do understand what a task it is to try to provide formats for so many NLE's out there today. You guys have done a great job of providing compatibility.

I just need to know the workflow options that I will have using Avid. 50 mbps long GOP will work for most of my needs, especially if it includes over and undercrank. The I frame options should work for all my other needs. Sounds like the 100 mbps material might have to be transcoded in Avid before editing. Good to know that it will work.

If you could confirm the information that you provided this next week, it would be greatly appreciated.

Dear Bob,

I have confirmed my information.

Avid works great with our I-Frame Only formats, even at the highest bit-rates, even beyond our 220 Mbps bit-rate.

Avid works with our 100 Mbps Long-GOP, but handles our 50 Mbps Long-GOP better.

Our engineers feel that Avid is reading the entire GOP (Group of Pictures) into their buffer.
At 50 Mbps, the entire GOP fits into their buffer, at 100 Mbps, it does not.
Disclaimer, this is our theory.

But, in any case, one can work, in Avid with our 50 Mbps and 100 Mbps modes.

I welcome Avid users to share their experiences.

Thanks Dan,
Hopefully, I will find time this next week to run some tests.

Hi Dan,
Just a quick note to say that I did download a 1080 23.98p 100 mbps clip from your web site and import it into Avid. The clip played, but I received a buffer error every time that the clip was played. The clip also showed up as a 50 mbps XDCAM clip in the bin information.

At this point, I would say that Avid does not yet fully support the 100 mbps long GOP option. I have not had time to put it through a complete test of editing, effects and output.

Since no current camera shoots 100 mbps long GOP material in the XDCAM HD format, Avid may have the support available, but not yet fully implemented. Maybe they need to be nudged a bit.

Dear Bob,

We report, in the MXF header, that our 100 Mbps Long GOP footage is 50 Mbps. This allows various NLE's to work with the footage, even though they do not have support for 100 Mbps.

Our 50 Mbps footage works fine in Avid. When we have time, we will add some 50 Mbps footage to our website.

Our 100 Mbps footage will play, but when you stop the footage, or scrub, you will get buffer errors, which can be ignored, but are a nuisance.

Bob, I am sorry, but I had forgotten about these buffer errors in Avid.

Dan - Will you guys be pushing Avid to support you guys with their new AMA linking feature?

I'm recording in QT and converting to MXF. I just wanted to make sure the best way to get it into Avid is by using the import tool since the AMA linking feature doesn't seem to work at this moment. I didn't expect it to, it's just a little nuisance when Avid has to create 3 more MXF's for audio and video in my Media File folder. Fast import of course since it's basically just separating the MXF so it can be edited it easier.

Dear James,

You seem to be doing everything right.

Sorry, but it is up to Avid to determine if they want to support us with the AMA linking feature.

I would suggest that you take this up with Avid.

Can anyone report on how well the Nano Flash works with Premiere Pro CS3?

Dan - Will you guys be pushing Avid to support you guys with their new AMA linking feature?

I'm recording in QT and converting to MXF. I just wanted to make sure the best way to get it into Avid is by using the import tool since the AMA linking feature doesn't seem to work at this moment. I didn't expect it to, it's just a little nuisance when Avid has to create 3 more MXF's for audio and video in my Media File folder. Fast import of course since it's basically just separating the MXF so it can be edited it easier.

Hi James-
I can not disclose the details, but we are working with Avid to greatly improve this workflow. Please stay tuned.

Best-

Can anyone report on how well the Nano Flash works with Premiere Pro CS3?

Hi Ron-
We are expecting a release of the Main Concept CODEC in September which will provide full support for all our files in Premeier. We'll post more details in the near future.

Best-

Thanks, I will be monitoring your advancements. I will be purchasing a Nano as soon as I can work with the files.