I am in the market for a new HD camera to shoot a narrative short film. I am considering the HPX 170, the JVC HM100 or the 5DMkII with Zoom H4n. I want to know what the biggest drawbacks are of using the 5D. Obviously doing double system sound and not having 24p are downsides, but other than that, what are the barriers that I would have to overcome if I went the 5D2 route? I have a shoestring budget and would love to spend only $2700 on the camera! (I already have canon glass from years of owning other canon dslrs for stills photography)

Thanks for any insights!

-Steve

For one thing, it's pretty much a given that you won't be making any focal length changes (zooms) during your shots, since there is no motorized zoom lens for this camera. And your shots will be limited to no more then twelve minutes each. Neither of these limitations is a big deal for narrative filmmaking, though.

Steve,
I was just like you about trying to making a decision a couple months ago between the Canon HF S10 and the 5D Markii.............at the time I went with the HF S10 b/c there was no solution to the manual control issue. To tell you the truth I was pretty pleased with my new purchase until they released the firmware update for the 5D....I said, well I'll be D^%# ! i just bought the HF S10............So what do you know??....I just bought the 5D last week b/c that was my 1st choice from the jump.......so know I have both.......I'm excited...I say 5D Markii all the way dude! lol Now I'm just trying to figure out which lense to buy b/c I'm new to the DSLR market.

Steve, didn't you do the Tilt-Shift video in Santa Barbara (go Gauchos!) If so, you'll love the possibilities with the 5D2.

Regarding audio, take a look at the juicedLink CX 231 with the free Magic Lantern firmware in the camera for recording directly. For external recorders consider a Zoom H4n. Then again, maybe you already have an existing camera that you can use for audio - and behind the scenes!

Stability is critical with the 5D2. Use a good tripod/dolly/jib when you can. Only go handheld at 35mm or wider, and use a shoulder rig, if possible. Consider a Hoodman Hoodloupe for shoulder setups.

If you edit with FCP, transcode to FCP. Otherwise, get NeoScene from Cineform. The native MOV files are just too slow for comfortable editing.

Spend some time with the Picture Style Editor. At a minimum, use a style with lower contrast than Standard. You can shoot RAW photos, play with the picture styles, load three custom styles into the camera, and get that look upstream of the encoder.

Enjoy!

you won't be making any focal length changes (zooms) during your shots, since there is no motorized zoom lens for this camera.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that! Although, I could still do some fairly smooth short zooms with a follow focus unit, maybe?

If you edit with FCP, transcode to FCP. Otherwise, get NeoScene from Cineform. The native MOV files are just too slow for comfortable editing.
Enjoy!

Hi Jon! Yes, that was me with the Tilt Shift video.

Workflow is another concern for me. What codec would you transcode to and what do you use to transcode? Compressor? MPEG Streamclip? I have some manual Zeiss Contax lenses I have adapted for Canon EOS, do you think I can still do all the manual settings without Canon glass with the electronic connection between the glass and the body? Also, how difficult is nailing critical focus with the 5D2?

Happy 4th of July!

-Steve

What codec would you transcode to and what do you use to transcode? Compressor? MPEG Streamclip?

I use NeoScene from Cineform. It costs about $100. Videoguys has it for $100. It's supposed to transcode faster than ProRes HD. If you run FCP, ProRes HD is there for free. Look at some of the threads here for tips on how to use it correctly. If you don't do it right, you'll get crushed blacks or messed up gamma.

I have some manual Zeiss Contax lenses I have adapted for Canon EOS, do you think I can still do all the manual settings without Canon glass with the electronic connection between the glass and the body?

The Zeiss lenses will work great. Many here prefer Zeiss glass for video because of the quality of the focus ring for video use. The only thing you lose is the built-in falloff correction for EOS lenses. As long as your glass is good or you stop it down a bit, you'll be fine.

Also, how difficult is nailing critical focus with the 5D2?

The 5D2 has a 5x/10x zoom function. Press that and you can absolutely nail the focus. Mark those spots and the results will be excellent. Trying to follow a sugar-high child with an 85mm lens at f/1.2 live would be another story.

Because of different focal lengths, f-stops, distances, monitors, stability rigs, subjects, and abilities, there's no one answer here. The best approach is to do some test shots and see what works for you.

Happy 4th of July!
To you too!

I am in the market for a new HD camera to shoot a narrative short film. I am considering the HPX 170, the JVC HM100 or the 5DMkII with Zoom H4n. I want to know what the biggest drawbacks are of using the 5D. Obviously doing double system sound and not having 24p are downsides, but other than that, what are the barriers that I would have to overcome if I went the 5D2 route? I have a shoestring budget and would love to spend only $2700 on the camera! (I already have canon glass from years of owning other canon dslrs for stills photography)

Thanks for any insights!

-Steve

Steve,

I have an XLh1, HV30 and recently picked up the 5d. And while the H1 and the HV30 have their strengths - the 5d blows them away. I shot a family wedding last weekend with the HV30 and the 5d. I fed the audio to the HV30 and wasn't planning on doing much with the 5d, but then I just started playing with it. And the images were incredible.

I have a 70-200 F2.8L, an 17-40 F4L, a Sigma 15mm fisheye, and I just picked up a 50mm 1.4. The 5d is ostensibly my wife's still cam, but holy crap... if it's possible to fall in love with piece of equipment, i'm there.

I just used the 50mm 1.4, because I was shooting hand held mostly. The thing about this camera that in my opinion trumps everything else is both the incredible low light performance and the ability to shoot shallow dof (since the firmware update). If you want to create video that doesn't look like video, and have a limited budget, then you need this camera.

I use Neo Scene to transcode to .avi for Sony Vegas, and recorded on two 8gb ExtremeIII cards.

Oh yeah, you'll need at least one CF card and a spare battery is nice.

Some buy Chinese knock-off batteries, but most don't have the chip, and that can make firmware loading a problem. I'm a purist and got a Canon battery. At a minimum get one with the chip.

For cards, some with Extreme III 8GBs have had problems, but as Ken demonstrates, that's not always the case. There are many reports of problems running Magic Lantern with large cards. I'm running Extreme IV 4GB cards with no problems.

As it turns out, you can record video to a fairly slow card, but if the card is too slow, firmware updates are a problem.

Anyway, you must budget for cards, and should for a battery.

The only thing you lose is the built-in falloff correction for EOS lenses.

My understanding is that even EOS lenses are not corrected by the camera when shooting video. You are stick doing it in PP with any lens.

I would guess it was too CPU intensive.

Thanks for the info guys! Yeah, I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on the 5D2. I'm running Final Cut Pro, so I would like to work in ProRes HQ. Could anyone point me to a thread or post about the proper workflow for the 5D2/FCP? Do FCP and Cineform play nice together?

I would certainly stick with Canon batteries, but what about the Transcend cards? Can I use the cheaper CF cards, or should I invest in the higher-end Sandisk cards? I think the Transcend is rated at 133x.

I am using Kingston ElitePro 133x 16 gigs with good success, no problems. I have stayed away from 32 gig cards because I am using Magic Lantern, and it seems to have issues with bigger cards. But that may even be true of the Stock firmware too...

My understanding is that even EOS lenses are not corrected by the camera when shooting video.

I've heard otherwise, but have never tested it. I'll add this to my to-do list...

Could anyone point me to a thread or post about the proper workflow for the 5D2/FCP? Actually we have a number of ongoing discussions already in progress covering this topic.
A targeted search or a simple browsing of the forum index should readily reveal them.

Do FCP and Cineform play nice together?Refer to this discussion: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1012962-post25.html -- post any replies directly to that thread, please.

what about the Transcend cards? Can I use the cheaper CF cards, or should I invest in the higher-end Sandisk cards?Refer to this discussion: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/139287-cf-compact-flash-cards.html -- post any replies directly to that thread, please.

Hope this helps,

My understanding is that even EOS lenses are not corrected by the camera when shooting video.

Something is happening when it's enabled though. I saw 3 strange dark bands on screen when shooting a white wall with the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS L - turned off the falloff correction and they went away.

Hello Folks

I have Canon XHA1 and Sony EX1 , I'm thinking of getting the 5D Mark II , my concern is if I get this DSLR my both camcorders will be on shelf.

Please stop me and tell me DSLR has limitation producing HD video versus my camcorders.

What I like on 5D Mark II is the depth of field.

The MkII is a great cam, but in my opinion it does not replace a video-cam.

I have an EX3 and a few others as well as my mkII. I use the EX3 about 90% of the time.

Of course it depends on what you are shooting for.

I see the mkII as a great added tool with lots of advantages, DOF lots of great lenses for not much money, great low light capabilities.

But it has terrible ergonomics is very hard to focus (it is a still camera and a great one at that), sound is pretty much unusable. Serious problems with thin horizontal lines. Only shoots 30p (not 29.97 even), no timecode. Codec produces lots of noise in high contrast sand sharp focus shots.

There are ways do deal with those problems, but it is a lot of extra work.

I still love the mkII, it can get shots you cant get with a small chip video cam, but I would never consider to use it as my only cam.

Read these threads:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/235268-thin-line-problems.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/237968-1080-30p-concerns.html

And search this and other forums for more discussions.

The lack of 24/25p is an issue for many. You can only record 12 minutes or so per clip.

Ergonomics can be solved to some degree with a shoulder rig and Hoodloupe or Z-Finder - if that fits your style of shooting. In any case, good stabilization is critical.

The camera doesn't support good sound out of the box - there are no XLR inputs and automatic level control is always on. The sound can be improved greatly with the Magic Lantern firmware and a clean active preamp, such as the juicedLink CX 231. Alternatively, use an external recorder, like the H4n, and sync to the built-in-mic audio of the 5D2.

... Only shoots 30p (not 29.97 even),...

It has been clarified on many threads that the real frame rate of the footage shot with 5DII is 29.97 and that the file header is miss written with 30p. The problem is easy to correct as has been shown in many work flow related threads.

Also, a fair discussion would be in terms of price/performance: almost 10k for a half inch sensor?

Many of the limitations on 5DII could be avoided with a careful setup. But a careful setup is needed for EX3 too as is needed for any professional work.

God help us all!

It has been clarified on many threads that the real frame rate of the footage shot with 5DII is 29.97 and that the file header is miss written with 30p. The problem is easy to correct as has been shown in many work flow related threads

That's not quite correct.

It shoots in 30p. You can slow it down to 29.97, or 25p, or 23.976p, or whatever, by just changing the header, but the video will be slower - only 0.1% slower in the case of 29.97.

When slowing the video to 29.97, you must also slow the audio to 0.999 speed to match.

After shooting all those audio tests, I'm 100% certain about this. :)

BTW, in the audio tests, I ran the video at 30p. That way I didn't need to change the rate of any of the audio during the comparisons.

Jon is quite right, of course. The 5D2 does indeed shot at 30p, and not 29.97. The file headers are *not* being mis-written.

Okay, I've made up my mind, I am buying the 5DMkII. Now, could someone (Jon) just tell me point blank: which audio device do I buy? Juicelink, Beachtek or H4n? (I already have the AT897)

Thanks so much for helping me make this decision guys!

-Steve

Well, I'll still give you a choice... Do you want to run a one man show and not have to mess with sync in post? Get the juicedLink and run the Magic Lantern firmware. Of the combinations that I've tested, it's got the lowest noise and is amazingly crisp. The only downside of the sound is that it can be a touch harsh, but that's partly because we're used to transients being smeared.

On the other hand, maybe you have a sound guy who wants to run untethered. Or you want to rig up an inteview, but don't have the cash for a wireless kit. Maybe you want to do a candid camera stunt with a long lens and want to hide the microphone in the flower bed near the victim. In that case, get the Zoom. It's nearly as quiet as the JL/ML, though not as crisp and detailed.

And maybe the $50 price difference is significant. Then get the JL.

Also, if you want to record really subtle stuff, like birds in the distance, get the JL.

So, the juicedLink has the edge in sound, price and time in post, but if the independence of the H4n is valuable for your shooting style, then consider it instead. Both solutions deliver professional-worthy audio at a prosumer price.