Hey all,

Posted before about trouble with my shotgun mic in loud venues. Lately I've been shooting some events that are louder than I've done in the past.

So now I'm looking for recommendation for mics I can use on camera (sony Z1 for now) that can handle loud bass-heavy music, dj voice, etc. Since this is for ambient sound, I don't care if the mic has the rear and side rejection of a shotgun. In many cases, it would be better if it didn't.

Alternatively, I could get a stand alone recorder like the Zoom H2 and this would give me a backup track as well. Is this a better option?

I googled around, but couldn't really find much. Does anyone have suggestions so I can start to research and compare? I'm an audio amateur so any help is welcome.

Thanks a million.

First, make sure that your problems are actual 'microphone' problems or 'overloading the 1st pre-amp stage' problems.

In case it's them microphone, you might a) use a mike that can be padded down (i.e. AKG 480 series built-in, Schoeps has an add-on).

For searching around I would suggest a visit at :

Taperssection.com - Index (http://taperssection.com/index.php)

Tapers are very much used to very loud venues......!

good luck.

If all fails, most dynamic mics are pretty much game for brain squashing volume levels. You will probably give up first before the microphone does. Too bad your hearing's gone for good after very few of these happenings.

Grüß dich, Karl,

That's a great looking audio forum! I think I have some reading to do...

Thanks a lot.

there is another way that MIGHT work for you. IIRC the Z1 has a setting on the audio box for a minus 20db attenuation OR you could pick up a pad like a Proco -10 attenuator. they also have an adjustable one. it goes from -10 to -30. Can't guarentee it would solve the issue but I've used a -10 on my drum mic that I put in front of a DJs speaker (when the DJ is bad-you know levels like a 747 at 100% power for take off) I set my plugin transmitter to -6 so I get a total of -16 and so far it's worked out quite well, plus it gives me a nice range of attenuation. minus 6 on the transmitter, minus 10 with the attenuation and another -20 at the camera so if needed I could knock it down to minus 36. in your case an adjustable might get you up to -50. like I said I thought the Z1 has 3 settings on the side of the audio plugin box. MIC, LINE and ATTENTUATION or it might be marked -20.
Thats just another way to go in case you don't want to buy a new mic whichmight not even be the cause of the problem.

Hey Don,

I think you're thinking of the PD150. The Z1 doesn't have a mic att switch. The only switch next to the XLR inputs is phantom power on/off.

In the menu the Z1 has "audio trim" which I'm finding out doesn't seem to be the same as mic att. The MIC and LINE settings are also in the menu, not on a switch.

I sure WISH there were a mic att switch on the Z1. If you find out there is one, let me know where right away, sigh...

Thanks a million.

yeah, I couldn't remember if it had MIC ATT or not. Guess not but again perhaps by suppling outside attenuation as I described above, it might just take care of the situation for you.

Thanks, Don!

Ran across this in one of my catalogues...AKG Perception 170 | Sweetwater.com (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Percep170)
AKG Perception 170 small diaphragm condenser mike
It accepts an astonishing 155db SPL, and has a 20dB pad to ease the load on your preamps....it is primarily used as an instrument mike, but this just implies that it needs an external shock mount, because these mikes generally don't have internal shock protection, and a windscreen or other breath protection if used as a vocal mike, to protect the diaphragm. This mike has about 20dB more headroom than the NGT2 I think you mentioned using. Price is right, I think, at about $140. You could spring for their similar C451B, at just short of $600, but I doubt it's worth it for the purpose....hth.../Battle Vaughan PS elsewhere I think I mentioned maybe a dynamic mike, which would also take some of the load off the preamp as dynamics have a lower output than condenser mikes
Not a bad idea, as far as the preamps go, but this particular mike has a very high spl headroom that would help prevent the mike itself from overloading...

That's a great recommendation, Battle. Thanks a million, I'll check it out.

Cheers,
Vito

Hey all,

Ran across this in one of my catalogues...AKG Perception 170 | Sweetwater.com (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Percep170)

I ordered one, Battle. Hopefully I'll get it in time to use this weekend, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Got a Zoom H2 for backup recording, too. Used it last weekend to hook into the dj board and it was brilliant.

Thanks,
Vito

As an alternative to the AKG (quite similar, actually), investigate the Sennheiser e914 ( http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/professional_wired-microphones_instrument-mics_evolution-900_500206?Open&row=2 ) - it too has an on-board switchable pad: 0dB, -10dB, -20dB.

Max SPL 137, 147, 157 dB

Absolutely impossible to overload this mic. I have used it on-camera (not ideal) in discos and next to church organs.

Hope it works for you! / bv

Absolutely impossible to overload this mic. I have used it on-camera (not ideal) in discos and next to church organs.

Too late. I bought the other one :-)

Yeah, the Sennheiser e900 series can take a beating.

My youngest son plays in a band and does the audio work. He recently got the e902 bass drum mic.

Sennheiser Worldwide - e 902 (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/professional_wired-microphones_instrument-mics_evolution-900_500199?Open&row=2)

He had been recording his guitar with an SM57 - the classic guitar amp mic. But the '57 is really a midrange mic. It doesn't have a strong bass response, and the highs really fall off. Recording a club with a '57 would sound really thin and wimpy.

Enter the e902. A bass drum has two components to the sound - the pressure wave and the slap of the beater. To capture that this mic is really scooped - it's all bass and treble with little in between.

Anyway, by placing the e902 right next to the SM57, he can handle the amp cranked to "11", and can mix the two mics to get the sound that he wants. The same would work in loud clubs and concerts.

Hey guys,

Just to update. I bought the AKG 170 that Battle mentioned, and tried it out yesterday. Here are a couple of sampes. One to compare with my NTG2, the other some audio from the wedding I shot yesterday.

The test was basically just plugging one mic into each channel of my Z1, sticking them side by each in front of a speaker at home, and playing some music. I preface with some VO.

The samples show ambient audio from the event. One channel on manual, one channel on auto. Each file starts with one quick sample with the -20db attenuation of the mic turned on, followed by the next song with it turned off.

I've added some normalization to make the levels similar for easier comparison, but other than that, they're unaltered.

To my ears, the Rode records my voice much better, but can't handle the bass in the loud music. The AKG handles the volume with no problem.

In the ambient samples, when the DJ comes in, he distorts in the manual channel, although it was peaking at about -10db at the time. The auto channel, although it was peaking much higher, didn't distort. This makes me wonder if the internal limiter of the Z1 (which I had switched on) only takes effect when the audio is switched to auto gain.

I saw no advantage to leaving the attenuation on in this situation, and it actually was a disadvantage during speeches for example, as the signal became much too low. Fortunately, I had my ZOOM H2 plugged into the DJ board, so it wasn't an issue.

I also felt the crowd noise felt more distant with the AKG. But at least it wasn't distorting in the bass, so I can live with it.

All in all, I feel it was a great purchase, and shows me that the NTG2 was being overloaded, and not the preamp of the camera. I'm happy to have another mic in my kit, and the ZOOM H2 was a great purchase as well.

Thanks to all you guys for your help and suggestions. Hopefully these samples will help others in similar situations.

Cheers,
Vito

Thanks for the feedback! I looked at the tracks from your ntg2_test and akg_test files and it looks, as you would expect from what is primarily an instrument mike, the AKG has a more responsive diaphragm, which would probably make it brighter than the Rode, and thus the Rode a happier fit with a male voice, just subjectively.

I attach a sample from the very first part of the clips....you can see what I'm talking about, I think, although I'm not sure how the normalization may have affected the results...

btw, the diaphragm on instrument mikes is usually right up front, if you use it as a vocal mike be sure to use a windscreen to keep breath moisture out of it, condenser mikes hate that....best wishes / Battle Vaughan

Hey Battle,

which would probably make it brighter than the Rode, and thus the Rode a happier fit with a male voice, just subjectively.

Actually, I found the Rode to be brighter. Or at least to reproduce my voice better. But I'm far from being a good audio guy, so I'm not the most accurate listener.

I attach a sample from the very first part of the clips....you can see what I'm talking about

Am I looking at the amplitude of the response in your graph? That is, the small variations in the line? As you say, looks greater in the AKG.

btw, the diaphragm on instrument mikes is usually right up front, if you use it as a vocal mike be sure to use a windscreen to keep breath moisture out of it, condenser mikes hate that....best wishes / Battle Vaughan

Thanks, I'll remember that. I did notice the AKG being much more senstive to popping in my little test.

Anyway, I sure learned a lot from this experience. Thanks for all your help, and for taking the time to listen, etc.

Cheers!

Yes, regular waveform with amplitude vs. time....this is Audacity, a free audio program for windoze and Mac, which is worth having; I have Soundtrack Pro, Soundforge 9 and Soundbooth and I still use this open-source jobbie all the time...Audacity: Free Audio Editor and Recorder (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/)

Hope this works out for you, I enjoyed hearing your tracks. Hope you invest in some good earplugs for those loud venues...:) / Battle Vaughan

Hope you invest in some good earplugs for those loud venues...:)

Tell me about it. I bought a pair of in-ear headphones that reduce by about 30db what comes in your ears, and lets me monitor at the same time. They're a lifesaver.

Vito, you can take it to the next level by wearing noise-cancellation headphones over your in-ears. Don't give them a signal, just let them reduce the ambient sounds even further. Just shop for good cancellation; since you won't feed them a signal, you don't have to worry about sound quality.

Thanks, Jon.

Just for information purposes, I bought a Shure SM57, put a Sennheiser tranmitter on it and stuck it on a mic stand by the DJ speaker and it sounded awesome. It wasn't in my typical loud environment but it was close.